Couples with kids, cohabitating are among those marrying at papal Mass

[commenter]

And JPII always rubbed me the wrong. I think that it was because I was having major difficulties with the Catholic Church (bullying and such) when he was pope. There is nothing that says that a Catholic must personally like all the popes. I also don’t think that Francis isn’t a orthodox Catholic, but he is more accepting of people’s mistakes. He would call them sins and mistakes, but he is willing to celebrate their return with joy rather than shaming them more.

Keep in mind that our perceptions are largely shaped by the media. Francis teaches a great deal about evil - the evil that comes from the World, the Flesh and the Devil.

Francis emphasizes the power of Satan, who influences both individuals, and whole countries. He performs exorcisms for individuals, but also, like other recent popes, has commented on satanic influences on some (not all) trends in modern societies. The secular trend-makers and media tend not to report that part of Francis’ teaching.

Francis is like a doctor, who sees many smokers. He does not denounce them, does not blame them for their addiction, which often came because they followed the “trends”. But he also is aware of the harm they are doing to themselves, and the harm that can come to others, if they get started. So the doctor does treat the individuals with compassion, or rather Francis does reach out to those caught up in sin. But just like a doctor who fights the tobacco lobby, Francis fights the social and political influences that cause so many people to follow the media trends, to harm themselves through misuse of sexuality.

You wouldn’t call a doctor “compassionate” if he fails to urge his patients to stop smoking. Yes, Francis is compassionate, but in a broader way than presented by the media.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

I don’t know why you would assume that the Pope is creating scandal.
There is no evidence of this in the article at all.
You can be fearful all you want, but people do repent.
It’s been known to happen.

I don’t know why you are assuming that I am accusing the Pope of creating a scandal. Certainly nothing I have said even comes close to that.

Like I said my concerns aren’t about the couples in the article at all.

I am not fearful of people repenting and would appreciate you not implying that I am.

What I have said is that this is something that if not properly done can be very damaging for the Church.

 

[pianistclare]

I don’t know why you are assuming that I am accusing the Pope of creating a scandal. Certainly nothing I have said even comes close to that.

Like I said my concerns aren’t about the couples in the article at all.

I am not fearful of people repenting and would appreciate you not implying that I am.

What I have said is that this is something that if not properly done can be very damaging for the Church.

Excuse me, but why would anyone believe that the Pope would not do things properly. Your implications are pretty clear. You distrust the Vatican.
I myself, would appreciate that if you are going to come out with something that implies that something is amiss that you not backtrack. Either you have an issue with it, or it is fine. I think everyone else took you post to mean the same thing.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Excuse me, but why would anyone believe that the Pope would not do things properly. Your implications are pretty clear. You distrust the Vatican.
I myself, would appreciate that if you are going to come out with something that implies that something is amiss that you not backtrack. Either you have an issue with it, or it is fine. I think everyone else took you post to mean the same thing.

All of my posts have said is that I am concerned about how this story can be misapplied around the world. A perfect example is when Pope Francis said, “Whom am I to judge” and how it was misunderstood around the world.

What my concerns have focused around has NEVER been about the particular couples in Rome mentioned in the news article, but of other future married couples in dioceses around the world and how the cohabitation issue will be dealt with by different dioceses.

 

[pianistclare]

All of my posts have said is that I am concerned about how this story can be misapplied around the world. A perfect example is when Pope Francis said, “Whom am I to judge” and how it was misunderstood around the world.

What my concerns have focused around has NEVER been about the particular couples in Rome mentioned in the news article, but of other future married couples in dioceses around the world and how the cohabitation issue will be dealt with by different dioceses.

Well, you should have said that.
Again, why in the world would you need to be concerned that Diocese’ around the world may not know how to properly handle people who want to get married? We deal with this every day. People show up, and decide to get right with the God. We walk them through the process, and it’s not a quick fix. They receive counseling. The meet with the priest many times over. They get interviewed. They submit their story. They profess to get fix their situation. They are indeed vetted. The church isn’t condoning cohabitation.
The Church knows what to do in these cases, really they do. There’s no need for alarm.
You are falling prey to exactly the thing you claim to be afraid of. Misinterpretation of the Church’s actions.

 

[saintjohnxxiii]

Well, you should have said that.
Again, why in the world would you need to be concerned that Diocese’ around the world may not know how to properly handle people who want to get married? We deal with this every day. People show up, and decide to get right with the God. We walk them through the process, and it’s not a quick fix. They receive counseling. The meet with the priest many times over. They get interviewed. They submit their story. They profess to get fix their situation. They are indeed vetted. The church isn’t condoning cohabitation.
The Church knows what to do in these cases, really they do. There’s no need for alarm.
You are falling prey to exactly the thing you claim to be afraid of. Misinterpretation of the Church’s actions.

Because history has chosen that diocese don’t always follow what Rome dictates. A perfect example is Humanae Vitae. Here in Canada the Canadian Bishops publicly announced after it was released that couples could use whatever means they wanted to limit family size.

 

[commenter]

All of my posts have said is that I am concerned about how this story can be misapplied around the world. A perfect example is when Pope Francis said, “Whom am I to judge” and how it was misunderstood around the world.

What my concerns have focused around has NEVER been about the particular couples in Rome mentioned in the news article, but of other future married couples in dioceses around the world and how the cohabitation issue will be dealt with by different dioceses.

This person may have a point. When I read the Pope’s statements in context, they always make sense in the light of Catholic teaching. The problem is that they are not presented in context by the daily newspaper, or even many Catholic papers. That’s the reality we deal with, not the statement-in-total-context, which hardly anyone sees. The people handling communications for the Vatican and the local diocese seem almost to be living in the 1950s, when the media would simply and fairly summarize whatever Pope Pius said, without imposing the secular agenda. We live in a different world and need to adjust to it.

It’s not enough to judge that this talk - in total context - is orthodox. They have to review it, maybe paragraph 4 is harmless to the person who has read all 10 paragraphs, but what is the effect of paragraph 4 on the average person, when you KNOW paragraph 4 will be presented to them, with no context?

 

[Teelynn]

Because history has chosen that diocese don’t always follow what Rome dictates. A perfect example is Humanae Vitae. Here in Canada the Canadian Bishops publicly announced after it was released that couples could use whatever means they wanted to limit family size.

’

I do think you’ve hit the nail on the head…it’s all about PERCEPTION. There are a good number of diocese not only in this country but world wide who will ‘PERCEIVE’ what isn’t really there and be more than happy to ‘loosen up the reigns’ so to speak. Look at some of the terrible abuses that came out of Vat ll. Not that Vat ll in and of itself was disordered, but the ‘spirit’ of Vat ll got us into a real mess. I do wish the Vatican would do more clarification for everyone’s benefit. It would help put the clamps on the liberal diocese.

 

[coco2]

I applaud this action by Pope Francis. The Church has made it almost impossible for people to come back. My brother was married outside of the church by a woman minister. After many years of marriage and children, he wanted to come back to the Church and be married in the Church. He was told he had to move out of his home, and he and his wife would have to go through Pre-Cana in order to be married in the Church. How does a father and husband do this, exactly? He must suffer and make his wife and children suffer due to his sin 10 years before?

How exactly does an unmarried, but pregnant couple say they are sorry for having sex before marriage, resulting in a child they love? This is difficult for the couple, who aren’t at all sorry they have this beautiful child

Then there are the cohabitating couples. Priests need to start preaching about this from the pulpit. Many Catholics get the only instruction they will ever get on Sundays at Mass, and you never hear the subject come up, along with abortion. Parents are having a hard time fighting against the culture, but it certainly would help if the young people actually heard it from the priests.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I applaud this action by Pope Francis. The Church has made it almost impossible for people to come back. My brother was married outside of the church by a woman minister. After many years of marriage and children, he wanted to come back to the Church and be married in the Church. He was told he had to move out of his home, and he and his wife would have to go through Pre-Cana in order to be married in the Church. How does a father and husband do this, exactly? He must suffer and make his wife and children suffer due to his sin 10 years before?

How exactly does an unmarried, but pregnant couple say they are sorry for having sex before marriage, resulting in a child they love? This is difficult for the couple, who aren’t at all sorry they have this beautiful child

Then there are the cohabitating couples. Priests need to start preaching about this from the pulpit. Many Catholics get the only instruction they will ever get on Sundays at Mass, and you never hear the subject come up, along with abortion. Parents are having a hard time fighting against the culture, but it certainly would help if the young people actually heard it from the priests.

In the first example I think the advice was patently incorrect.

In the second example I think the priest or deacon doing marriage formation should mention the teaching of the Church clearly and precisely, of course with charity, but not dwelling upon it for too long. However I think it is perfectly legitimate to explore the issue of marrying “for the baby,” which is not good.

In the third example, I agree.

 

[Teelynn]

I applaud this action by Pope Francis. The Church has made it almost impossible for people to come back. My brother was married outside of the church by a woman minister. After many years of marriage and children, he wanted to come back to the Church and be married in the Church. He was told he had to move out of his home, and he and his wife would have to go through Pre-Cana in order to be married in the Church. How does a father and husband do this, exactly? He must suffer and make his wife and children suffer due to his sin 10 years before?

How exactly does an unmarried, but pregnant couple say they are sorry for having sex before marriage, resulting in a child they love? This is difficult for the couple, who aren’t at all sorry they have this beautiful child

Then there are the cohabitating couples. Priests need to start preaching about this from the pulpit. Many Catholics get the only instruction they will ever get on Sundays at Mass, and you never hear the subject come up, along with abortion. Parents are having a hard time fighting against the culture, but it certainly would help if the young people actually heard it from the priests.

Another excellent point. Catechesis has been all but non existent in the last 40 odd years. It’s been all ‘fluff’ so to speak, but the worst has been misguidance from a good number of our clergy. I have a grown child who had been ‘taught’ (years ago) by religious ed teachers and clergy that it was not at all sinful to miss Mass on Sunday, and confession was ‘out of date’. It has been very difficult to try and reverse these errors of teaching and by the Church herself. I have heard people call it ‘the lost generation’ because of the total destruction of catechesis. Once the milk is spilled, try getting it back in the bottle. And yes…parents have had to try and fight the culture and in a good number of cases the Church itself! When is the Church going to get serious about teaching the faith? Yes, thankfully, you have some parishes within more traditional diocese that are doing just that, but there are still a good number that are ‘off the rails’.

 

[commenter]

Another excellent point. Catechesis has been all but non existent in the last 40 odd years. It’s been all ‘fluff’ so to speak, but the worst has been misguidance from a good number of our clergy. I have a grown child who had been ‘taught’ (years ago) by religious ed teachers and clergy that it was not at all sinful to miss Mass on Sunday, and confession was ‘out of date’. It has been very difficult to try and reverse these errors of teaching and by the Church herself. I have heard people call it ‘the lost generation’ because of the total destruction of catechesis. Once the milk is spilled, try getting it back in the bottle. And yes…**parents have had to try and fight the culture and in a good number of cases the Church itself! When is the Church going to get serious about teaching the faith? **
You make a good point. As a parent I know what you are referring to, after many battles with principals, DRE’s and sometimes pastors, especially some nightmare sex ed programs. I had to teach most of the doctrine directly to my children, there were so many gaps.

The only thing I would clarify is that I never had to fight “the Church”. The pope’s teaching was always sound, especially catechetics. What I did have to fight or disagree with were individual priests (seldom), rogue sisters (often), and occasionally laypeople in the Diocesan offices. But I wouldn’t say I had to fight “the Church itself”. I was fighting individuals who were not doing their assigned ministry - THEY were fighting the Church, or more often, dragging their feet. I was fighting for the Church. I don’t mean to make it sound like all the parents were themselves angels. Besides not always giving a good Christian witness ourselves, many of us failed to teach religion (not just by example, but doctrine) directly to our children, as we should have.

So I am not disagreeing with Teelyn, who I am sure did the best he or she could. I just want to caution against a trend I see on CAF, etc, where “conservatives” rightly notice that Church officials sometimes failed to faithfully carry out their mission, and thus wrongly conclude that “the Church”, meaning Vatican II, recent popes, and the Magisterium, are also supposedly wrong, and they turn to websites to make them distrust Pope Francis, and fight their local bishop.

 

[Tigg]

I applaud this action by Pope Francis. The Church has made it almost impossible for people to come back.

Seriously…how modern-minded we’ve become! I take umbrage at your comment. What Catholic does not fully know that if they violate church marriage laws there first must come repentance for sin? Even more basic, what Catholic would not know they have sinned against purity; the antidote being confession? Further, would you like the Church to bow to immorality and declare there need not be any consequences for one’s own actions and free choice?

My brother was married outside of the church by a woman minister. After many years of marriage and children, he wanted to come back to the Church and be married in the Church. He was told he had to move out of his home, and he and his wife would have to go through Pre-Cana in order to be married in the Church. How does a father and husband do this, exactly? He must suffer and make his wife and children suffer due to his sin 10 years before?

Whoever told him this must not have been familiar with JPII’s* Familiaris Consortio *which would have offered him a temporary alternative solution until their marriage could be convalidated.

How exactly does an unmarried, but pregnant couple say they are sorry for having sex before marriage, resulting in a child they love? This is difficult for the couple, who aren’t at all sorry they have this beautiful child

If one cannot be honest and recognize sin in their life; if they are without true contrition, why even bother to have their marriage regularized by the Church? It is the offense to God’s law they need to be sorry for. Are they asking for the blessing to solidify their family and bless the innocent child? Or do they not care if they pursue an active sacramental life or not.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

With all due respect to the Holy Father, I really don’t see the big deal about this. The press is blowing it out of proportion for its own purposes. Those of us who are parish priests have been dealing with these issues for a long time now. While there are a few priests out there who act “more Catholic than the Pope”, they are relatively few. I cannot recall a single story of someone being denied a wedding because the bride has a child.
I have heard in the past of co-habitating couples being denied a Nuptial Mass, but they still were able to get married in the Church. However, that was in the past and I rarely hear about such arrangements any more. It seems nowadays everyone gets a Nuptial Mass.

IMHO, most of the urban legends involving wedding denials come from the 50’s and 60’s, people simply regurgitating stories of the parents and grand parents struggles with parish priests and church rules.

In modern USA city parish life, we deal with this kind of thing all the time and its even more complicated because records and previous marriages were done in other countries which may or may not keep good records. If we set up strict rules, then couples will simply lie to us and give us two different address and two different phone numbers while remaining co-habitated. Either that or they’ll simply go away and never return. We parish priests have been walking the fine line of compassion and encouragement to the Church’s teachings. But the basic fact remains that we recognize these couples want to regularize their relationship with the Church, they want to be active members of the Church.

I think the best Catholic response is to simply shrug our shoulders at the press and say, “Yeah we already knew that about our Church, glad you guys finally caught up to speed!”

 

[coco2]

With all due respect to the Holy Father, I really don’t see the big deal about this. The press is blowing it out of proportion for its own purposes. Those of us who are parish priests have been dealing with these issues for a long time now. While there are a few priests out there who act “more Catholic than the Pope”, they are relatively few. I cannot recall a single story of someone being denied a wedding because the bride has a child.
I have heard in the past of co-habitating couples being denied a Nuptial Mass, but they still were able to get married in the Church. However, that was in the past and I rarely hear about such arrangements any more. It seems nowadays everyone gets a Nuptial Mass.

IMHO, most of the urban legends involving wedding denials come from the 50’s and 60’s, people simply regurgitating stories of the parents and grand parents struggles with parish priests and church rules.

In modern USA city parish life, we deal with this kind of thing all the time and its even more complicated because records and previous marriages were done in other countries which may or may not keep good records. If we set up strict rules, then couples will simply lie to us and give us two different address and two different phone numbers while remaining co-habitated. Either that or they’ll simply go away and never return. We parish priests have been walking the fine line of compassion and encouragement to the Church’s teachings. But the basic fact remains that we recognize these couples want to regularize their relationship with the Church, they want to be active members of the Church.

I think the best Catholic response is to simply shrug our shoulders at the press and say, “Yeah we already knew that about our Church, glad you guys finally caught up to speed!”

My brother was told he had to move out of his home and live separately from his wife and children while they went through Pre Cana during the late 1990’s in Columbus, OH. Not that long ago. I’m glad to hear most priests handle it differently.

 

[coco2]

Seriously…how modern-minded we’ve become! I take umbrage at your comment. What Catholic does not fully know that if they violate church marriage laws there first must come repentance for sin? Even more basic, what Catholic would not know they have sinned against purity; the antidote being confession? Further, would you like the Church to bow to immorality and declare there need not be any consequences for one’s own actions and free choice?

Whoever told him this must not have been familiar with JPII’s* Familiaris Consortio *which would have offered him a temporary alternative solution until their marriage could be convalidated.

If one cannot be honest and recognize sin in their life; if they are without true contrition, why even bother to have their marriage regularized by the Church? It is the offense to God’s law they need to be sorry for. Are they asking for the blessing to solidify their family and bless the innocent child? Or do they not care if they pursue an active sacramental life or not.

And what of the child? Do you have any idea what it does to a child when they find out they were conceived while their parent’s were sinning? They are a result of sin, while their siblings who came along after marriage were conceived out of love? I seriously doubt that in this day of age anyone would be asking to be married in the church if they didn’t want to pursue an active sacramental life.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

My brother was told he had to move out of his home and live separately from his wife and children while they went through Pre Cana during the late 1990’s in Columbus, OH. Not that long ago. I’m glad to hear most priests handle it differently.

Well, the early 1990’s were approximately 20 years ago so its not that recent either .

In this case, I’d say given that children were in the home that would not have been the majority advice, even back then. But, yes, they would have been questioned much more so than today.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

In 1999, the USCCB said:

If a couple is cohabiting, can marriage be denied or delayed?

Denial of marriage

– Since cohabitation is not in itself a canonical impediment to marriage, the couple may not be refused marriage solely on the basis of cohabitation. Marriage preparation may continue even if the couple refuses to separate. Pastoral ministers can be assured that to assist couples in regularizing their situation is not to approve of cohabitation.

 

[Tigg]

And what of the child? Do you have any idea what it does to a child when they find out they were conceived while their parent’s were sinning? They are a result of sin, while their siblings who came along after marriage were conceived out of love?

I highly doubt a “child” would ever have the acuity to discern things in this manner. This is adult perception and the “child” would not even need to know, except in certain circumstances, later in life. God grants every child born with inherent dignity, regardless the circumstances and the parents have an obligation to instill this message. Children born out of wedlock should be beloved by the parents just as the siblings and human life is precious; it is only the fornication that is sin. In this day and age, I do not believe there would be much stigma attached to it.

 

[RosslynV]

This borders on scandal if not scandal itself. The lukewarm catholic will look at this event and think that fornication before marriage is permissible, “heck I may even be married by the Pope himself, who will overlook my cohabitation.”

This could have been a teachable moment. But we are hearing ambiguity at best. Would have been nice to hear a Vatican statement saying, " co-habitating couples have renounced their sinfulness and have all received the Sacrament of Confession prior to the ceremony."