Cradle Catholic questioning if I belong

[OurLadysServant]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Mastectomy? The surgery to remove a woman’s breasts? Anyway, I take great offence that you are insinuating that these acts are taking place in any form in my house! There is nothing happening in my house that comes close to Sodom!

My husband an I are completely open, and want, to create more children. Obviously, as I stated before, he only does this when there is not a possibility of an egg being fertilized and even if there was we are not using it for contraception. As we all have learned, there is still a high probability of pregnancy with this method of contraception.

My words got mixed up there, not mastectomy, -the operarion not to be able to create children is what I meant (if its not on medical grounds and if its under the three conditions of mortal sin).

I’m confused, you are talking about a possible mortal sin taking place in the bedroom that you do not think is a sin?
(what exactly is that, I do not follow)

I just listed examples of the churches teaching on grave matter to do with sexual sins for that reason.

If you are saying you and your husband abstain completely from intimacy during moments of infertility,
that’s not a mortal sin at all

Did you say both of you do not use contraception at all? (I do not understand some of the posts)
I don’t know what mortal sin against the 6th commandment you are referring to though? (if you were, I’m not understanding correctly)
You’d have to be specific

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Thank you Gary, I actually agree with what you have said, which is one reason that I find it difficult to believe that I am actually committing mortal sins. I have always believed in God and his mercy. I am not questioning my love for him or his love for me. The Catholic church has brought me to this place of questioning their teachings on 2 issues. And if I decide that I do not believe that these are sins then what do I do? It is my impression of the Church that by deciding to not follow everything the Church teaches then I am held bound to these sins, which cannot be forgiven because I am not truly sorry for them.

Again, why can other faiths be welcomed into heaven without believing all the teachings of the Catholic church and I, having my church chosen for me by the pressure of my parents but still believe the majority of it’s teachings, will not?

I would love to avoid this place of torment.

Perhaps it 's not a matter of who is allowed to enter into a place called heaven but more a matter of who attains a state of being that is heaven or hell. The Kingdom of God is said to be within you. I am offering the idea that finding heaven is likely a matter of letting heaven happen and not allowing dogmatic thinkers or institutions to act as gatekeepers to that which is already inside of you. People who think like this have already missed the boat. It’s not about a line we walk, but a state of being. Find the state of being and the path is made straight and the lines fall into place. It is not the other way around.

Just my opinions I’ve posted here, but I think you should be happy for your life and not be troubled by things like this. Real trouble finds us soon enough anyway.

All the best
Gary

 

[St_Francis]

St Francis and Pianistclare, so would it be correct to say it’s a matter of what it means to have full knowledge and understanding? And that just because a person knows what the Church teaches about something and understands why, if they don’t believe it, then they don’t truly know? And so when CCC 846 says you can’t be saved if you know and don’t enter or remain, it means you can know what the Church says. But if you don’t believe it, that actually means you don’t know? IOW you have to believe something in order to know?

It would be correct to say Christ became Man to give us the directions to Heaven. He died on the cross to open the gates of Heaven.

If we do not follow the directions, *it may be *that we will get there *despite *that, because God sees into our hearts and knows everything about us. OTOH, we are much *more *likely to get into Heaven if we follow the directions.

In all of this, we should remember that the first and most important commandment is to love God with all our heart, all our soul, all our strength, and all our mind.

That means we should be doing everything for God *because we love Him, *so we should not be fearful and fretting about this. We should trust God and throw ourselves on His mercy when we fall.

The thing is, even great saints felt they were falling short. They sensed God’s immensity and our smallness, so how can we think we are in the best position to enter Heaven? We must keep up with loving and trusting God.

And the more we love and trust Him, the more we will want to obey Him.

 

[St_Francis]

Perhaps it 's not a matter of who is allowed to enter into a place called heaven but more a matter of who attains a state of being that is heaven or hell. The Kingdom of God is said to be within you. I am offering the idea that finding heaven is likely a matter of letting heaven happen and not allowing dogmatic thinkers or institutions to act as gatekeepers to that which is already inside of you. People who think like this have already missed the boat. It’s not about a line we walk, but a state of being. Find the state of being and the path is made straight and the lines fall into place. It is not the other way around.

Just my opinions I’ve posted here, but I think you should be happy for your life and not be troubled by things like this. Real trouble finds us soon enough anyway.

All the best
Gary

Why would you say things which are not what the Church teaches, esp in a thread where the OP is trying to understand what the Church teaches?

God gave us a teaching Church to teach us. Why deviate from that? Christ said if we love Him, we will obey His commandments: maybe those dogmatic thinkers and gatekeepers are telling us *how *to find Heaven?

 

[OurLadysServant]

If we do not follow the directions, *it may be *that we will get there *despite *that, because God sees into our hearts and knows everything about us.

The Catholic Church does not teach that people will get into Heaven for deliberately, in full knowledge and freedom committing grave matter or mortal sin.

“I can do whatever sin I want because God is merciful and will forgive me and He sees my heart behind the sin”.
Jesus never said that.

No Pope ever said that.

It’s not in the Catechism.

No saint ever said that.

Any saint who slipped repented of it and did not continue in mortal sin.

The saints went to horrific martyrdoms rather than sin.

It’s the sin of presumption to believe: “I’ll sin deliberately because God can forgive me.”

Jesus suffers enough in every tabernacle and mass throughout the world for mankind’s sins as it is. Each sin adds to His Passion.

 

[OurLadysServant]

I am offering the idea that finding heaven is likely a matter of letting heaven happen and not allowing dogmatic thinkers or institutions to act as gatekeepers to that which is already inside of you.

Just my opinions I’ve posted here, .

Gary, those are just your opinions.

Jesus Himself was a Dogmatic Thinker, and is the Founder of the Greatest Institution on earth; The Roman Catholic Church.

All Theology has come from the Word of God and from Jesus Himself.
Jesus Himself institutionalized the church and gave us a line of Vicars in succession from St Peter.

You say not to allow gatekeepers or dogmatic thinkers?
What did Jesus say about The Catholic Church acting as a gatekeeper;
He said to St Peter; “I will give you the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.” This authority as gatekeeper was given to our Popes, the Roman Catholic Church, the apostles, our priests.

Jesus has spoken on keeping His word and the Father has spoken about giving us His commandments.
The successors of the apostles, the Popes, priests, theologians, and Vatican have also spoken.
It’s Biblical.

We cannot pick and choose what we’d like to take on board and do what we want otherwise.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Why would you say things which are not what the Church teaches, esp in a thread where the OP is trying to understand what the Church teaches?

God gave us a teaching Church to teach us. Why deviate from that? Christ said if we love Him, we will obey His commandments: maybe those dogmatic thinkers and gatekeepers are telling us *how *to find Heaven?

Because being well read in the histories of most religions I can say that the teachings of Jesus in particular can be bent to convey whatever meaning a given institution or group of people or individual person wants to ascribe to them. My church has not been immuned to this behavior. In this case l call upon Corinthians 3:6 to support what I have said about trying to jockey ones way to heaven with the letter of the law. Get with the spirit of the matter and the laws take care of themselves. Beyond this I can also give direct account of Jesus ’ actions as they relate to living by the letter of the law. Anyone can read these without the assistance of institutions.

All the best
Gary

 

[Sy_Noe]

The Catholic Church does not teach that people will get into Heaven for deliberately, in full knowledge and freedom committing grave matter or mortal sin.

“I can do whatever sin I want because God is merciful and will forgive me and He sees my heart behind the sin”.
Jesus never said that.

No Pope ever said that.

It’s not in the Catechism.

No saint ever said that.

Any saint who slipped repented of it and did not continue in mortal sin.

The saints went to horrific martyrdoms rather than sin.

It’s the sin of presumption to believe: “I’ll sin deliberately because God can forgive me.”

Jesus suffers enough in every tabernacle and mass throughout the world for mankind’s sins as it is. Each sin adds to His Passion.

Again but what does it mean to have full knowledge and understanding? If one fully knows what the Church teaches, understands Her perspective and reasoning, but does not believe it or does not have faith in the CC teaching authority, is that still full knowledge and understanding? IOW is just knowing what the Church teaches and understanding Her reasoning and perspective enough? Or does one have to also believe it in order to be in full knowledge and understanding?

 

[OurLadysServant]

Because being well read in the histories of most religions I can say that the teachings of Jesus in particular can be bent to convey whatever meaning a given institution or group of people or individual person wants to ascribe to them. Beyond this I can also give direct account of Jesus ’ actions as they relate to living by the letter of the law. Anyone can read these without the assistance of institutions.

All the best
Gary

That is a Protestant opinion,

Catholics are obedient to the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture, through the Vatican and Popes. A church founded by Jesus Himself, and not by people, where.Jesus is Truly Present in the Eucharist, which Jesus stated biblically. A person is not a catholic if they are making up their own rules.

The devil can quote scripture for his own, as he proved in the desert.

 

[Sy_Noe]

A person is not a catholic if they are making up their own rules.

You’re wrong at least according to what your church teaches. The CC teaches a person is if they were baptized or confirmed in a CC. They may be considered practicing or non but still considered Catholic by the CC if not by you. Or I suppose even if they themselves don’t consider themselves to be.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

-]/-]

That is a Protestant opinion,

Catholics are obedient to the Roman Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture, through the Vatican and Popes. A church founded by Jesus Himself, and not by people, where.Jesus is Truly Present in the Eucharist, which Jesus stated biblically. A person is not a catholic if they are making up their own rules.

The devil can quote scripture for his own, as he proved in the desert.

Like many Catholics, I am Catholic because that is how I was raised, not because I think my church is the point or the object of my faith. The object of my faith like any Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Hindu is God. The messages are the same to the extent that we all seem very clearly to be reaching for the same thing. What differs are the approaches. My approach is the approach I was raised in because that normally turns out to be what resonates with people over the long run. The problem with what you are suggesting about obedience is that my objective is not to live for or at the pleasure of any institution. Further, what I have said is in agreement with scripture and scripture is not circumvented by the church.

What you have said about my church in particular being founded by Jesus Himself is an argument that can be made with scripture and disputed with scripture as any theologian would know. What any historian would know is that it is an historically questionable idea.

 

[Busy_sleeper]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

My words got mixed up there, not mastectomy, -the operarion not to be able to create children is what I meant (if its not on medical grounds and if its under the three conditions of mortal sin).

I’m confused, you are talking about a possible mortal sin taking place in the bedroom that you do not think is a sin?
(what exactly is that, I do not follow)

I just listed examples of the churches teaching on grave matter to do with sexual sins for that reason.

If you are saying you and your husband abstain completely from intimacy during moments of infertility,
that’s not a mortal sin at all

Did you say both of you do not use contraception at all? (I do not understand some of the posts)
I don’t know what mortal sin against the 6th commandment you are referring to though? (if you were, I’m not understanding correctly)
You’d have to be specific

If you had read my previous posts you would understand. I will repeat myself, but that is not the issue. The issue is that the church believes something is a mortal sin and I do not. Period. Now with that said how do I continue to call myself a Catholic?

The mortal sin that you are confused about is “pulling out.” As I have said before we are NOT using contraception because we WANT to have more children. He does this so that I will have a more comfortable day. Someone suggested that he was really thinking of me he wouldn’t suggest we be intimate until it was a good time for both of us. That is nice to think but what if it is my idea to be intimate at that time. We are also parents of 3 young children, kindergarden and under, both of us having full time jobs. Keeping up with a few kid activities, housework, errands, baths, bills, etc. Not to mention that we can both be just plain tired in the evening. Suggesting that putting off intimacy until a “better time” is not always possible, that time could be days away.

In my heart I do not believe that doing this turns me away for God or my marriage. I actually think it is a good thing for my husband to be considerate of me and my comfort during the day. So how is this a mortal sin? And if it’s just one of those things the Church is saying “because I said so” about, how do I continue to call myself a Catholic? I do not want to be one of those “going through the motions” Catholics that just chose to ignore differences in beliefs. If you had read my previous posts you would also know that this just came about a few weeks ago when my husband was almost finished with RCIA but decided that it was not fully in his heart to join because he also does not believe these things.

So again, my question is how can he, being a Lutheran, continue in his faith and not carry a mortal sin, but I being a Catholic do? And I have been told “once a Catholic, always a Catholic.” You are either a practicing Catholic or a Non-practicing Catholic. Will the Church always believe that my soul is going to hell because It believes I carry a mortal sin? How I continue to go somewhere that believes I am doomed?

 

[Busy_sleeper]

Busy sleeper;12896460:

People of other faiths still have to keep God’s commandments and laws to get into Heaven because the Law of God is written on all hearts.

Sorry just wondering
Do you believe catholicism is the True Church?
Because that would be full knowledge on your part, and to withold to upbring children in the True Faith, is a mortal sin under the three conditions, its in the Catechism

I do follow God’s commandments. It’s a few things that the Church has grouped under the commandments, and considers mortal sins, that I do not agree with. If God expected all of these added details to be considered mortal sins then it would be the 1000 commandments.

I believe God gave us the commandments so that we would know and follow them, and if there were other afflictions that also fall under mortal sins I don’t think he would have left them up for interpretation. God doesn’t not want us to doom ourselves to hell because of an interpretation issue. The 10 commandments are black and white. The Church is interpreting everything else. So to you question, I believe that the Church was found by Christ and, of all the religions, has the “best” path to salvation, but I do not believe every thing that the Church believes is a mortal sin that wil send us to hell.

 

[Busy_sleeper]

God judges, not us. We cannot say anything about where a particular individual ends up, because God judges them based on every speck of their being, and we don’t have all that information.

However, if you knew your neighbor wanted to go west, and you saw him driving east, wouldn’t you tell him he was going in the wrong direction?

If the Church cannot say where an individual ends up and that the judgement is only God’s, then why does the Church teach that mortal sins will send your soul to hell? I thought they believe “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

I personally believe that statement should be taken on a more personal level instead of what the Church believes. I feel that God is telling us that whatever you do not forgive of others will not be forgiven of you, and what you do forgive of others will be forgiven of you.

I understand you point of feeling obligated to tell someone when they are on the wrong path. Who is to say though, that their path does not eventually lead them to God. There are many great people of God that did not start off on the right path and then there are those who did start off right and then ended up on the wrong path.

North, South, East, and West are worldly accepted directions, the Catholic church is not.

 

[OurLadysServant]

You’re wrong at least according to what your church teaches. The CC teaches a person is if they were baptized or confirmed in a CC. They may be considered practicing or non but still considered Catholic by the CC if not by you. Or I suppose even if they themselves don’t consider themselves to be.

You are right that a person baptised as catholic their baptism stays with them,

Catholics are bound by practice to loyalty to everything set down by Roman Catholic Church teaching, through the Popes in succession from St Peter, to the traditions passed by Jesus to the apostles, who passed them to the early church fathers, which has faithfully been guided by the Holy Spirit, and faithfully recorded in the Catholic Catechism which was promulgated under Blessed Pope John Paul II, and written under the guidance of Cardinal Ratzinger, based on 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition from the Bible, Jesus, the apostles, the early church fathers, the saints, and supported with some private revelations.

We do not make up our own commandments and sins we wish to keep or not.

 

[Sy_Noe]

If the Church cannot say where an individual ends up and that the judgement is only God’s, then why does the Church teach that mortal sins will send your soul to hell?

My understanding is the Church can not say because no one knows if the heart was repentant before the moment of death but God. My question remains what does it mean to have full knowledge and understanding and is it more than simply knowing and understanding what is taught and the reasoning behind it? Or does one must also believe in what the Church says in order for it to be said they truly know?

 

[OurLadysServant]

OurLadysServant;12896876:

, I believe that the Church was found by Christ and, of all the religions, has the “best” path to salvation, but I do not believe every thing that the Church believes is a mortal sin that wil send us to hell.

We can help you understand why these are considered mortal sins if you give us some examples.

 

[OurLadysServant]

My understanding is the Church can not say because no one knows if the heart was repentant before the moment of death but God. My question remains what does it mean to have full knowledge and understanding and is it more than simply knowing and understanding what is taught and the reasoning behind it? Or does one must also believe in what the Church says in order for it to be said they truly know?

It can be a number of things;
Conscience
Knowledge that something is gravely immoral
Or faith in the RC Church’s teaching on something

 

[St_Francis]

-]/-]

Like many Catholics, I am Catholic because that is how I was raised, not because I think my church is the point or the object of my faith. The object of my faith like any Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or Hindu is God. The messages are the same to the extent that we all seem very clearly to be reaching for the same thing. What differs are the approaches. My approach is the approach I was raised in because that normally turns out to be what resonates with people over the long run. The problem with what you are suggesting about obedience is that my objective is not to live for or at the pleasure of any institution. Further, what I have said is in agreement with scripture and scripture is not circumvented by the church.

What you have said about my church in particular being founded by Jesus Himself is an argument that can be made with scripture and disputed with scripture as any theologian would know. What any historian would know is that it is an historically questionable idea.

It remains the case that what you are saying is merely your opinion and not what the Church teaches.

 

[OurLadysServant]

."

I personally believe that statement should be taken on a more personal level instead of what the Church believes. .

Catholics answer to this:
Papal Infallibility over moral issues.
The Holy Spirit guides the seat of St Peter.
The authority of Papal teaching represents Christ’s Vicars, and Christ’s Vicars on earth. It’s not negotiable.

Roman Catholic Church teaching set down through the Popes in succession from St Peter, to the traditions passed by Jesus to the apostles, who passed them to the early church fathers, which has faithfully been guided by the Holy Spirit, and faithfully recorded in the Catholic Catechism which was promulgated under Blessed Pope John Paul II, and written under the guidance of Cardinal Ratzinger, based on 2,000 years of Catholic Tradition from the Bible, Jesus, the apostles, the early church fathers, the saints, and supported with some private revelations

Do you believe in the True Presence in the Eucharist?
There have been over 500 eucharistic miracles of the Eucharist turning into Jesus actual flesh and blood and remaining incorrupt 300 years later. Scientists tested two of these and proved them as blood type AB of the same person. Blood type AB was found on the Shroud of Turin, and pollen dating it to be present in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago at a Jewish funeral.

Do you believe in the continued Marian Apparitions still occuring?
Do you believe the RC saints still witnessing? Such as Padre Pio who had the stigmata for 50 years.

By it’s fruits shall you know it.

We do not make up our own commandments and sins we wish to keep or not