Creation or Evolution. What do you believe?

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Edwin Taraba:
The good news is there is plenty of science that supports the idea of biblical creation.
No, there is no science that supports Biblical creation. Only a lot of pseudoscience.
Darwinism is rapidly crumbling and is not fit to survive.
Yeah, right, for over 170 years on end:

home.entouch.net/dmd/moreandmore.htm
The fossil record’s Cambrian Explosion and lack of transitional forms have been known for decades to disprove Darwinism.
Transitional Fossils:

talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html

Cambrian Explosion:

ncseweb.org/icons/icon2tol.html
Even Stephen Jay Gould admitted to this fact.
Probably in a quote taken out of context, like creationists always do.
That’s why he invented his rediculous theory of “punctuated equilibrium”.
Punc-Eq is not in opposition but complementary to gradualistic Darwinism:

talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html
The fact that DNA had to precede the onset of the so-called natural selection process coupled with the fact that science has shown, (and even staunch evolutionists accept the fact), that DNA cannot be spontaneously generated in nature also disproves Darwinism.
Abiogenesis probabilities:

talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html
And most recently molecular biology’s concept of “irreducible complexity” disproves Darwinism.
Irreducible Complexity Demystified:

talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html
Hundreds of reputable scientists around the world have written books and papers refuting evolution theory.
But how many of those are named Steve?

ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18

That’s for now. For all those who want to educate themselves, go to Talk.Origins and learn.
 
I think it’s hard to argue with evolution as a whole. The fossil record shows us that billions of years ago proto-bacteria existed, and over time more and more complex organisms developed. And I have to say that human evolutionary development does test my faith. If we believe that the world was created for man, and man has a soul and the possibility of eternal life, etc, then where do our forebears stand? There were several species of pre-humans who were not Homo sapiens but who seemed to have had near-human intelligence and presumably emotions and ideas. Are we to consider Homo erectus, and Australopithecus, and whoever else, equal to us in God’s eyes? What about Chimpanzees? Evolution does sort of imply that maybe we are not all that special; we are just lucky to have developed large brains with the capacity for language which allowed for civilization to happen.
 
Edwin Taraba:
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we believe that Adam and Eve were the first people God created and from them all others have descended.

That’s nice. Could you tell me what exactly KNM-WT 15000 is, please? See eg:

www.modernhumanorigins.com/wt15000.html

and

www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/ha/WT15k.html
Also the doctrine of original sin is a strongly held belief in Catholicism and all other Christian groups. This doctrine includes the concept that death did not exist before the fall of Adam and Eve.
Is that just human death?
The two ideas (evolution and biblical creation/original sin) simply are not compatible any way you look at it.
Uh-huh. Tell that to the Pope. See his Message to Pontifical Academy of Sciences, October 22, 1996
The theistic evolutionist is undergoing quite a bit of mental gymnastics to reconcile evolution with biblical creation and doctrine of original sin.
Actually, I agree. But since I don’t usually argue with those who accept factual evidence, I don’t mind if they jump through hoops to square the two.
When all you know about science or your view of the physical universe seems to contradict the bible you have to bend both science and your interpretation of the bible to make them fit together. Thus we get theistic evolution theories.
Perhaps. But an awful lot of folks seem happy enough doing so, and I rarely argue with them. But if you’re going to force this into an either-or argument, if you insist that we have to accept either the bible or evolution, then I’m more than happy to refute your bible.
The good news is there is plenty of science that supports the idea of biblical creation.
Wrong. Show me this science.
Darwinism is rapidly crumbling and is not fit to survive.
Heehee. Wishful thinking, I’m afraid.
The fossil record’s Cambrian Explosion
Please tell me some of your understanding of this, and explain how it helps ‘Darwinism’ to crumble. Are you aware, for instance, of the existence of Precambrian fossils? Of Precambrian precursors of trilobites? That every species in the ‘Cambrian Explosion’ is extinct? That this ‘explosion’ lasted around 20 million years? That if it indicates design, then there were presumably multiple designers involved?

Please tell me what you have read about this period.
and lack of transitional forms have been known for decades to disprove Darwinism.
A typo there, I think. It should read “lack of transitional forms and similar lies have been promulgated by creationists for decades”.

You don’t agree? Start here: www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates

…then I can give you more details if you wish, on those and a dozen others. Oh, but while we’re at it, could you tell me please which of these are the apes, and which are the humans? Which one’s Adam?



(cont…)
 
Edwin Taraba:
Even Stephen Jay Gould admitted to this fact . That’s why he invented his rediculous [sic] theory of “punctuated equilibrium”.

If it’s so “rediculous”, you’ll be able to tell me what it is, won’t you?
DNA [formation] also disproves Darwinism.
Abiogenesis has nothing whatever to do with evolution, so its improbability or otherwise is completely irrelevant. I, a scientific rationalist (what you’d call an atheist, I expect) here state for the record that some god or other could have created the first life. There.

Evolution is what you get, automatically and inevitably, once you have life.

You can’t have chemistry till you’ve got elements, yes? Suppose we had no idea where atoms came from. Would this make us unable to study chemistry?

We can study the course of life’s history even if we do not know how it started. And that is what evolution is concerned with. So your DNA point is irrelevant.
Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA and devout atheist, threw out Darwin long ago.
Cite references.
And most recently molecular biology’s concept of “irreducible complexity” disproves Darwinism.
Again, you reveal your unfamiliarity with the facts. Start here:

wiki.cotch.net/wiki.phtml?title=Irreducible_Complexity

Oh, and you should note that the arch-Irreducible-Complexity proponent Michael Behe agrees with most of evolution, specifically shared common ancestry of life. See eg: wiki.cotch.net/wiki.phtml?title=Michael_Behe
Natural selection just could not have happened.
http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/unsupported_assertion.jpg

Not only that: your claim is plain false. Natural selection has been observed. Look up Peter and Rosemary Grant’s work on the Daphne Major (Galapagos) finches, rat resistance to Warfarin, mosquito resistance to DDT, Plasmodium resistance to chloroquinine, and nylon-oligomer digesting bacteria, for starters. Then move on to Observed instances of speciation.
Hundreds of reputable scientists around the world have written books and papers refuting evolution theory.
Please substantiate that claim.

And note that hundreds of thousands of scientists have published findings over the last hundred and fifty years that do nothing but support evolution.

While I wait to see your substantiation of that, I’ll raise you an awful lot of Steves. Their names are here.
It is a good thing that I feel Catholics and all Christians should be making a lot of noise about - the preponderance of the evidence accumulating during recent decades
Enough! Let’s see this evidence!
sides with church teachings
What, like what the Pope said? Oh I see, you mean the medieval church…
and the biblical creation story.
No, it does not. You’ll be telling us next you believe in Noah’s ark!

TTFN, Oolon
 
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Charles:
I have no problem believing in both. There is no doubt in my mind that God created the Heavens and the Earth and all the creatures of the Earth, and mankind.

I also believe that the purpose of Genesis was to teach us this fundemental truth about God the Creator.

I have no problem accepting that God would allow evolution as a means of creation. In fact, given the changes our Earth has apparently undergone over the years, it makes sense to me that He did allow a mechanism for creatures to change and adapt. Natural selection, to me, is an extremely elegant means of promoting life in a changing world. It points me even closer to God, rather than farther from Him.
Charles,
I tend to agree w/ you.
 
You young-earthers need to read some science.
You evolutionists need to read some scripture and some of the Church Fathers on Genesis. You also need to read some scientists with different views. I recommend you start reading about Genetics. That being said I am not neccesarily a young earther. I just don’t believe that God was cruel enough to use something so brutal as evolution to create man. Of course no one has yet addressed with the fact that it makes no sense whatsover if you truly believe God created man prior to the Fall.

Mel
 
Oolon Colluphid,
Not only that: your claim is plain false. Natural selection has been observed. Look up Peter and Rosemary Grant’s work on the Daphne Major (Galapagos) finches, rat resistance to Warfarin, mosquito resistance to DDT, Plasmodium resistance to chloroquinine, and nylon-oligomer digesting bacteria, for starters. Then move on to Observed instances of speciation.
Great. You have a made a case for Micro-Evolution! That is not what is in dispute. It is Macro-Evolution. Yes, change within species is observable. Change from one species to another is not and no one here (or ever) has proven it with all the links to the apparently infallible TalkOrigins site.

Mel
 
I think we should support science in its attempts to keep trying to understand God’s world. I think people should be careful in how they interpret Scripture. I think humility is truth and we should start from not assuming facts without evidence. Value judgements are so easy to put in here: God is cruel because he allowed millions of years of evolution? Why? This could be seen as a symphony of life and death, crescendoing in the temporal creation of Man and still building and harmonizing to the glory of God.

Trying to demystify creation from the point of view of God or the attitude that we are judging God is not a good thing. Trying to understand the origins of life and the universe to better understand God’s creation and glory is a very good thing.

As Christians we walk by faith that Christ is the Way and the Truth. Science is a methodology for bringing physical Truths to light. Any incompatibility is, I assume, due to my own failing to either understand the science or the Scripture.

The sanctity and love of humans is intimately bound up with Christianity and to allow a mechanical clockwork Theory to take hold without raising a voice is injurious to humanity. It renders people vulnerable to objectification that we saw when fascist governments wielded science like a hammer on the human condition.

Peace
 
Some of you keep writing things that make the Pope look like an Evolutionist. Just because he said you can believe it does not mean you should. With all due respect to John Paul II I am quite certain he is no scientific expert and I am also sure he has not exhaustively studies the matter. And since it was not Ex Cathedra you are free to disagree with him if he does believe it. In fact you should.

You have several unfixable problem if you believe in Theistic Evolution. You have ot Allegorize the Fall. Which means God caused death to ente the world prior to Adam and Eve. This is changing thousands of years od Biblical understanding to make it fit the Theories of Athiests. A terrible way to study scripture and a mockery of the Fathers who have handed down common understandings on scripture.

You then have to make the Atonement allegorical because if there was no Adam and Eve then there was no real Fall and no need of a Savior. And the New Testament writers refer to Adam is real terms not allegorical terms. “Through the one allegorical character sin came into the world…” So then Jesus must be allegorized as well. I love what Biblical higher criticism has done for Christianity. :rolleyes:

If you analize it you simply cannot believe in the essentials of Christianity and Theistic Evolution. If you do you have a logical and Theological inconsistancy.

That is not to say there are not and cannot be other scientific theories that do make sense beyond young earth creationism. But Creationism itself is essential. Modifying Darwinism is a terrible starting point to real science. Remember Theology is the Queen of the sciences. if you have a problem with that then you have a problem with the best scientists in history and you probably don’t realize how effected by modernism you are.

Theistic Evolution is not compatible with the Bible. And acting as if such a statement is ignorant or must come from young earth creationism is simply intellectual snobbery. Perhaps it should be turned around by pointing out the Theological ignorance in exaulting scienctific theory to infallibility over Scripture and Tradition.

This reminds me of the Public School kids who believe all sorts of out there things about American History or how evil Reagan was or what an evil thing Democracy is etc. It is just another myth propagated by Public (Government) “Education”. They said it so it must be true, everyone else is ignorant.

Mel
 
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MichaelTDoyle:
I think we should support science in its attempts to keep trying to understand God’s world. I think people should be careful in how they interpret Scripture. I think humility is truth and we should start from not assuming facts without evidence. Value judgements are so easy to put in here: God is cruel because he allowed millions of years of evolution? Why? This could be seen as a symphony of life and death, crescendoing in the temporal creation of Man and still building and harmonizing to the glory of God.

Trying to demystify creation from the point of view of God or the attitude that we are judging God is not a good thing. Trying to understand the origins of life and the universe to better understand God’s creation and glory is a very good thing.

As Christians we walk by faith that Christ is the Way and the Truth. Science is a methodology for bringing physical Truths to light. Any incompatibility is, I assume, due to my own failing to either understand the science or the Scripture.

The sanctity and love of humans is intimately bound up with Christianity and to allow a mechanical clockwork Theory to take hold without raising a voice is injurious to humanity. It renders people vulnerable to objectification that we saw when fascist governments wielded science like a hammer on the human condition.

Peace
All very true, Micael. But that does not mean we have to accept the most popular theory simply because it is popular. Popularity or lots of press does not make something true or scientific. It is scientific to examine the evidence. If the evidence is not there then we must move on.

Also, the symphony of life and death is very problematic since it nullifies the idea of death entering the world through the Fall. Death is a curse on creation it is not part of creation. To miss this is to miss the Gospel. That is the big theological problem of evolution. And we are never told to not think critically as Chrisitians and just accept what we are told as fact inspite of many great minds coming out against the supposed facts. Our skepticism should be towards theories that originate in Atheism not those that originate in Christianity. The Church gave us science. We have handed over to the skeptics.

Mel
 
Theistic Evolution is not compatible with the Bible.
No. I do not think so. I do not consider Gorillas men nor do I consider them to have an eternal soul. Same could be true of austaeleopithicus. {i]I just do not know with certainty At some point 2 Human beings were created by God and ensouled, Adam and Eve and placed in an earthly paradise. Theistic evolution does not contradict the existence of Adam and Eve necessarily.

This argument reminds me of end times arguments. Jesus was clear that the time was reserved to the Father but everyone is always laying down charts etcetera as to how it will or will not come down and speaking with an air of authority as if they were God.

Human beings are NOT the Captain of this ship called reality. Just because we do not understand something does not mean it did not happen in a way that seems contradictory to our fallible reasoning. We have to walk by faith because here and now we do not know.

peace
 
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Melchior:
You evolutionists need to read some scripture and some of the Church Fathers on Genesis. You also need to read some scientists with different views. I recommend you start reading about Genetics. That being said I am not neccesarily a young earther. I just don’t believe that God was cruel enough to use something so brutal as evolution to create man. Of course no one has yet addressed with the fact that it makes no sense whatsover if you truly believe God created man prior to the Fall.

Mel
Scientists who engage in actual science, ie, publish scientifically peer-reviewed papers, or scientists who are pontificating about areas outside of their expertise?

What specifically about genetics do you think provides evidence that evolution is untrue?

As for your incredulousness about how God may or may not have created man by the cruel method of evolution, unfortunately that’s entirely irrelevant in regards to the truth.
 
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Melchior:
Also, the symphony of life and death is very problematic since it nullifies the idea of death entering the world through the Fall. Death is a curse on creation it is not part of creation. To miss this is to miss the Gospel. That is the big theological problem of evolution. And we are never told to not think critically as Chrisitians and just accept what we are told as fact inspite of many great minds coming out against the supposed facts.
Mel
Good response. I am not sure that the Fall characterizes Death more than Death for Adam and his progeny, who were created to be immortal. Death for trilobites is not a curse. Just a dead trilobite. What do you mean by Death? Death to a body that houses an immortal soul is entirely different than death for an animal and death for a body (Adam’s) that was an immortal body with an immortal soul may even be more different.

I’m just applying some critical thinking to Genesis

peace
 
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Melchior:
Oolon Colluphid,
Great. You have a made a case for Micro-Evolution! That is not what is in dispute. It is Macro-Evolution. Yes, change within species is observable. Change from one species to another is not and no one here (or ever) has proven it with all the links to the apparently infallible TalkOrigins site.

Mel
You, of course, must realize that all macroevolution actually is, is an accumulation of ‘microevolutionary’ steps. In otherwords, unless you can provide a mechanism that stops this accumulation (which you can’t 😉 ) you have no basis for objecting to macroevolution.

Additionally, a massive amount of evidence has been provided for these macroevolutionary steps. Here is some information on whale evolution: talkorigins.org/features/whales/

BTW-here’s 29 evidences for macroevolution: talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

If you have any more misperceptions about evolution, be sure to bring them up.
 
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Melchior:
Great. You have a made a case for Micro-Evolution! That is not what is in dispute.
You may not being disputing it; Edwin clearly was when he wrote:
Edwin Taraba:
Natural selection just could not have happened.
Natural selection does happen, and it causes ‘micro’-evolution. QED.
It is Macro-Evolution.
So you’ll have no trouble answering my other questions then, will you? Which of those skulls is ape, and which is human?
Yes, change within
species is observable. Change from one species to another is not

Oh dear. This is false too. I suggest you look up ring species, such as Ensatina salamanders and Larus gulls. And then actually read the Observed instances of speciation page.

Even Answers in Genesis say, in their Arguments we think creationists should NOT use:
‘No new species have been produced.’ This is not true—new species have been observed to form. In fact, rapid speciation is an important part of the creation model. But this speciation is within the ‘kind’, and involves no new genetic information.
It would be useful if you could define ‘kinds’, so we can test your hypothesis that they are immutable. You seem to think it is approximately ‘species’. Yet speciation has been observed.

Are you aware that ‘baraminologist’ Kurt Wise thinks that ”on the average the baramin might turn out to correspond rather closely to the biological “family”—two levels up from the species (species within genera within families) and four levels down from the kingdom.” See here (pdf).

So, what is a ‘kind’? Your clarification would be greatly appreciated.

And beware of constructing a straw man argument when you claim that “change from one species to another is not [observed]”. Only creationists expect dogs-giving-birth-to-cats evolution. The rest of us expect exactly what we do in fact see: diverging populations, with greater and greater difference between them.

I’m also intrigued about your take on the Grants’ work. For even Duane Gish thinks that all the Galapagos finches – despite being separate genera – are the same ‘kind’: “They are not only all birds–they are all finches!”

If this is microevolution, pray tell what would count as macroevolution? And please apply that degree of microevolution when you look, as I now suggest you do, at those skulls above.
and no one here (or ever) has proven it with all the links to the apparently infallible TalkOrigins site.
It’s nice of you to say that it is infallible… but I detect an unbecoming (in a Christian) hint of sarcasm in that. If so, please could you point out a few of the fallibilities? All I see is meticulously referenced discussion of actual reports of observations, put (mostly) into layman’s terms.

Finally, perhaps you’d like to respond to the rest of my post above? What, precisely, are the problems you see with evolution? And why must it be an either-or issue?

TTFN, Oolon
 
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Melchior:
Some of you keep writing things that make the Pope look like an Evolutionist.
He wrote it himself, no? Or at least agreed with it…?
With all due respect to John Paul II I am quite certain he is no scientific expert and I am also sure he has not exhaustively studies the matter.
So do I. His letter wouldn’t be the grudging, half-hearted admission it is if he had.
And since it was not Ex Cathedra you are free to disagree with him if he does believe it. In fact you should.
Suit yourself. He said what he said.
You have several unfixable problem if you believe in Theistic Evolution.
/QUOTE]Scientific problems, are they?
You have ot Allegorize the Fall.
Nope, that’s theological.
You then have to make the Atonement allegorical
Nope, not that either.
If you analize it
A Freudian slip, perhaps?
That is not to say there are not and cannot be other scientific theories that do make sense beyond young earth creationism.
“Other” scientific theories? Sorry to break this to you, but YECism merely apes science to try to steal its kudos. It is pseudoscientific nonsense. It is refuted by the facts. Please be specific if you disagree.
But Creationism itself is essential.
Why could God not have used evolution as his means of creation?
Modifying Darwinism is a terrible starting point to real science.
Agreed. But since evolution – like atomic theory or gravity – says precisely nothing about the existence of deities, adding gods into the equation doesn’t matter. Ockham’s Razor might apply, but you can do it if it makes you happy. Most Christians do do it, and it seems to make them happy.
Remember Theology is the Queen of the sciences.
LOL! Please show me the testable predictions that theology makes.
Theistic Evolution is not compatible with the Bible.
Sez you. Not compatible with a literal reading, is what you mean, I think. Since when did the Bible have to be completely, literally true?

TTFN, Oolon
 
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Meatros:
You, of course, must realize that all macroevolution actually is, is an accumulation of ‘microevolutionary’ steps. In otherwords, unless you can provide a mechanism that stops this accumulation (which you can’t 😉 ) you have no basis for objecting to macroevolution.

Additionally, a massive amount of evidence has been provided for these macroevolutionary steps. Here is some information on whale evolution: talkorigins.org/features/whales/

BTW-here’s 29 evidences for macroevolution: talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/

If you have any more misperceptions about evolution, be sure to bring them up.
Interestingly the supposed eivdence is never conclusive. And to draw a conclusion from insufficient evidence is not science it is philosphy. So even by scientific standards Macro-Evolution cannot be called a fact. The idea that micro-evolution leads to macro has never moved beyond hypothoses. I am now drawing on 10th grade science class to show how shoddy TalkOrigins is. Hard evidence requires actual intermediary forms. There are none. And everyone that they try to come up with is either disproven at best and fraudulent at worst. Neanderthal, Piltdown, Cromagnum, Nebraska and the list goes on. Evolutionary theory has many embarrasments that no one seems willing to engage.

Is ir really so hard to believe that God could create man in one single step? Or is that God not sophisticated enough?

Mel

Mel
 
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Melchior:
I am now drawing on 10th grade science class to show how shoddy TalkOrigins is.
That’s nice. Let’s see your findings then.
Hard evidence requires actual intermediary forms. There are none.
Take a look at that pic I posted… :banghead:
And everyone that they try to come up with is either disproven at best and fraudulent at worst. Neanderthal,
Please explain.
Irrelevant.
Cromagnum
LOL! Oh yes, a real palaeoanthropologist… :rolleyes:

Apart from Cro-Magnons being H sapiens sapiens… what’s wrong with them?
Heehee! I see you’ve done your creationist homework. Please cite one modern work on the subject that even mentions it. Over-zealous journalism does not make it into Nature, Science, or books like Klein, Lewin, Tattersall etc.
and the list goes on. Evolutionary theory has many embarrasments that no one seems willing to engage.
Creationism has a list of deliberate misunderstandings and misinformation that it refused to correct, no matter how many times it’s told.
Is ir really so hard to believe that God could create man in one single step? Or is that God not sophisticated enough?
Sure, he could have. But he didn’t. He used evolution.
 
Hard evidence requires actual intermediary forms. There are none.
Take a look at that pic I posted…

Well, there’s the rub, isn’t it? Evolution is a very temporal enterprise. Stuck as we are in that same temporal nature it’s hard to lift our heads above the timestream and watch it happen.

Causality of these changes are problematic. Did one lead to the other and so on? Did that lead directly to who we are now? Causality itself is problematic.

I think there is no such thing as hard evidence no matter how much smugness you slather on pictures, it does not make it factual. To know something as fact requires a divine intellect. Only God knows things from the inside out and He seems to surprise us a lot–a whole lot.

A preponderance of evidence is another thing altogether. And there is a lot of evidence that there were a myriad of life forms in the distant past and that life forms do indeed change. But as I wake up I am continually struck by the ephemeral nature of my own consciousness, so I pack up my bag and try to face the idea of following Him with my cross with many questions unresolved.

peace
 
Oolon Colluphid:
He wrote it himself, no? Or at least agreed with it…? So do I. His letter wouldn’t be the grudging, half-hearted admission it is if he had.Suit yourself. He said what he said.
You have several unfixable problem if you believe in Theistic Evolution.
/QUOTE]Scientific problems, are they? Nope, that’s theological. Nope, not that either. A Freudian slip, perhaps? “Other” scientific theories? Sorry to break this to you, but YECism merely apes science to try to steal its kudos. It is pseudoscientific nonsense. It is refuted by the facts. Please be specific if you disagree. Why could God not have used evolution as his means of creation? Agreed. But since evolution – like atomic theory or gravity – says precisely nothing about the existence of deities, adding gods into the equation doesn’t matter. Ockham’s Razor might apply, but you can do it if it makes you happy. Most Christians do do it, and it seems to make them happy. LOL! Please show me the testable predictions that theology makes. Sez you. Not compatible with a literal reading, is what you mean, I think. Since when did the Bible have to be completely, literally true?

TTFN, Oolon

Since you are a non-Christian Rationalist according to your bio you are stepping in over your head. I take the Bible literally as far each Biblical genre is concerned. Poetry, Allegory, Narrative, Letters etc. I read it like I would read any other piece of literature - within it’s genre. And there are several different genre’s in the various books of the Bible. I don’t use it as a science text as it is not written as such.

Your bold assertions have not proven any of your points. you tossed out lots of names and scientifc jargon (nothing wrong with that of course) to exhibit your knowledge over and against mine and others. Then you go and try to tackle the theological issues with the same ignorance that you seem to believe creationists have. The number one weapon in the arsonal of non-theisitc Evolutionists like you is psuedo-intellectual scorn for opposing views. Victory by insult. I will be happy to address some of your other issues as soon as you actually engage an argument directly instead of using vocabularic evasion.

Further I would love to see you take on some of the logical problems and the scientific method problems as well. I think if you would study logic a bit you may find that evolution has some serious systemic problems in light of logical coherence. You cannot make leaps in logic and then try to establish your points on the finding of those leaps. Unfortunately that is what a great mnay in evolutionary science have done and do. If the starting point is flawed, and it is, no real science can exist if the rules of logic and method are ignored to arrive at certain conclusions. If that is not addressed then no other argument matters. One come up with the most well thought out and brilliant explanation regarding a flying machine - how fast it will go, how big it will be, how it will stay together in the air, how aero-dynamic it will be. But no matter how great and well thought out all those ideas on paper look and no matter how many experts in those areas confirm it all is utterly meningless if no one figured out how to get it off the ground. That is the exactly the evolutionary science works it builds this elaborate system with many plausible theories but it never bothered to actually start with the scientific method. It not begin with anything observable and build from there. It started with a theory then has spend countless millions to find or create the observable. Fundamentally unscientific.

Well I have to get back to work now. I can honestly see this going on forever if we let it.

Mel
 
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