Creation or Evolution. What do you believe?

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I think much of the disbelief in evolution stems not from Scripture but from the huge claims evolutionists make. Someone mentioned that gravity by Newton was wrong according to science. Seems like it was accepted for quite a while as evolution is accepted now. And the difference though mathematically minor is fundamentally large, no?

Same with steady-state and big bang. New observations yield new theories.

I think having an open mind on this issue is good. Just seems the evolutionists are so full of scorn that I have to wonder if they are about to end up with egg on their face. So many times new technology and new scientists turn everything upside down. If people demand that evolution is the only model, I think that closes minds to other possibilities.

Punctuated evolution was a pretty radical departure. Have they stated why something is punctuated? Theories are made to fit the existing data, but the data is incomplete.

I dunno. I just don’t like the scorn people are heaping on each other in this thread. I honestly don’t think we have all the answers on this issue.

peace
 
I also feel no strong compulsion “to hold” one view or the other. I’ll keep looking at data points as I see them.
 
I believe in an old earth (4-5 Billion years) and a God-guided creation. Strict creationism (6, 24 hour days) comes from a mis-understanding of the Bible and it’s purpose. It was started by fundamentalists who had no recourse but the Bible Alone to base their beliefs. They had to take an either/or mind-set; “Either the Bible is literally true or it is false and there is no God.”
They also don’t seem to spot the other story of creation in the Bible.
But, as far as the evolution of life from non-live materials I’d say the odds were against it. So much so, that it would be impossible for life to generate from non-life.
I have never heard a satisfactory scientific explanation for the existence of matter; something from nothing goes against any science I have ever read.
The existence of matter is one of the great proofs for the existence of God. Unlike our wiccan friends (do we have any?) we worship the Creator not the created.
Joe Gloor
 
Edwin Taraba:
The fossil record’s Cambrian Explosion and lack of transitional forms have been known for decades to disprove Darwinism. Even Stephen Jay Gould admitted to this fact . That’s why he invented his rediculous theory of “punctuated equilibrium”.
When faced with such distortion and dissimulation, where does one begin a refutation? The fossil record unequivocally corroborates evolutionary biology and claims to the contrary have less to do with empirical data than they do with wishful thinking by those advancing them. Assertions that there are no transitional forms documented in the fossil record, for instance, do not withstand serious scrutiny. If for nothing else, the validity of evolutionary biology and the support given thereto by the fossil record have been amply demonstrated since 1861 with the discovery of BMNH 37001–both among the most beautiful and important of all fossils in the world. Nonetheless, it might be worthwhile to examine the veracity of the claim quoted herein by a quick look at the fossil record of Archosauria. For the less inspired amongst us, Archosauria (*non sensu *Gauthier 1986) is a subdivision bracketing the common ancestor of Euparkeria + Proterochampsidae + Avesuchia and all its descendants (Benton 1999). Thus it is the single most speciose clade of terrestrial vertebrates in Earth history. A conservative list of transitional forms within this clade stretches into the dozens, and this would be without the inclusion of Aves (though there is no justification for such as it would render Archosauria paraphyletic). One fails to see any credible reason why a form such as *Confuciusornis sanctus *or Yanornis martini or *Liaoningornis longidigitus *or *Presbyornis pervetus *should not be considered exemplar of morphological intermediates bridging two higher taxa. Perhaps you could clarify why one should not view them as the transitionals they are. Or, if the *scientia amablis *(to use Mayr’s term for Ornithology) is not to your liking, we can use any number of non-avian archosaurs. Indeed, Broom’s *Euparkeria *from the South African Karoo and its Triassic redbeds is ideal, or, say, *Sphenosuchus acutus *of the late A. D. Walker’s love. Why would either of these forms not qualify as transitionals? What of Marasuchus or Sinovenator changii? Surely *Huaxiagnathus orientalis *must qualify, yes? What of Sinornithosaurus millenii? If not, as apparently you would have us accept, then it would be most sporting of you to tell us why.

As for the sorry old spectre of punctuated equilibrium. In a troublesome error which we can account to your lack of familiarity with the details of the topic, you state that S. J. Gould is the intellectual father of the concept of punctuated equilibrium. This is in fact not the case whatsoever. Punk eek is a much older idea that stems from the 1942 work of the peerless Ernst Mayr, which was only later “modified” rather egregiously by Gould and company into an overblown, shoddily supported pseudo-revolutionary concept claimed to overturn the stodgy paradigm in evolutionary research. Reality, however, has been rather cruel to punk eek *a la *Gould. Repeated analyses of Cenozoic mammalian fossil record spanning multiple clades (e.g., Hurzeler 1962, Maglio 1973, Harris & White 1979, Gingerich 1980, 1982, Fahlbusch 1983, MacFadden 1985, Krishtalka & Stucky 1985, Chaline & Laurin 1986, Carroll 1988, etc.) have consistently demonstrated gradational morphological change over time in sharp contrast to the cladogenic pattern postulated by Gould and his colleagues. I find your omission of these data most curious.

The so-called “Cambrian explosion” is largely an inaccurate statement given the discovery of the Vendian fauna which indicate a substantial adaptive radiation of eukaryotic morphotypes prior to the post-Cambrian diversification. Nonetheless, the Cambrian is by no means my speciality (I am but a humble aviphile), and I will not comment on length on it and rather leave it to others more learned.

Vindex Urvogel
 
<< Vindex Urvogel >>

Keep going, I don’t have to reply to the creationists any more. 😃 Where are you guys coming from? Some creation-evolution board? I see you also speak Latin. 👍

Phil P
 
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Melchior:
Your bold assertions have not proven any of your points. you tossed out lots of names and scientifc jargon (nothing wrong with that of course) to exhibit your knowledge over and against mine and others. Then you go and try to tackle the theological issues with the same ignorance that you seem to believe creationists have. The number one weapon in the arsonal of non-theisitc Evolutionists like you is psuedo-intellectual scorn for opposing views. Victory by insult. I will be happy to address some of your other issues as soon as you actually engage an argument directly instead of using vocabularic evasion.
Mel
I find this extremely interesting. Oolon has been very plain spoken and has in fact avoided the requisite vocabulary to a large extent. Despite his alleged flaunting of his intelligence, having some idea of his general intellectual prowess, I assure you he has been rather modest. Moreover one wonders how it is possible to discuss a topic as complex, technical, and detailed as evolutionary biology, paleontology (or any matter of science) without the use of the proper terminology. If you lack familiarity with the requisite terminology then it is hardly a sign of any pomposity on the part of your opponent, but merely indicative of your own unsuitability for debating the topic at hand. People who cannot discuss appropriately concepts they are attempting to refute, should most certainly refine their understanding thereof before trying to attack that which they do not understand.

Vindex Urvogel
 
For the less inspired amongst us
Your post should be in the dictionary under Supercilious. Really impressive stylistically. I lost any content under the sheer weight of your tone.
 
PhilVaz said:
<< Vindex Urvogel >>

Keep going, I don’t have to reply to the creationists any more. 😃 Where are you guys coming from? Some creation-evolution board? I see you also speak Latin. 👍

Phil P

The students of the *scientia amabalis *are ever-vigilant. I lurk round the Internet on various forums, IIDB, DarwinTalk, CreationTalk, etc.

Vindex Urvogel
 
Wow, this is intense. Well I used to believe in evolution, then when I became a Christian (Protestant) I was against it with a passion. Iv’e read numerous books on evolution and I must say now it’s possible now it has happened. I’m now a Catholic and the Catholic Church has never has a problem with evolution. The world is created natural, to look natural, that’s the way God created it. Similar accounts are within the Bible and from a book Iv’e recently read called “The Science of God” by Gerald L. Schroeder seems to suggest evolution proves God’s exsistence. It’s a very interesting book. But I stll have questions and problems about evolution such as when HUMAN fossils and skulls show up in the wrong time frame, even a half of a million years before homo erectus and so on. Iv’e read this in a book called “Bones of Contention” by I think Marvin Lubelow. Other interesting things are within that book as well.

But my question remains that why has God created animals to die along with sickness and so on? What does St. Paul mean in the Bible when he says the creation eagerly awaits the new heavens and earth that God will create and how the WHOLE creation suffers because of mans sins?

But where was I when God laid the foundation of the earth?
 
<< Iv’e read this in a book called “Bones of Contention” by I think Marvin Lubelow. Other interesting things are within that book as well. >>

Bones of Contention has been dealt with by Jim Foley and his Fossil Hominids site. He does say the book is probably the best creationists have to offer. I don’t have that book myself.

Creationist Arguments: Bones of Contention

Phil P
 
I have not read all of the posts on this particular question, but my devout belief is in a literal 6-day creation, young earth between 6,000 - 10,000 years old. We cannot have death and decay before the original sin of Adam.

Blessings,
raggamuffin
 
I think that any discussion on evolution would be aided by focusing on 3 key question.
  • Did the universe have a beginning?
  • Did life evolve from none life?
  • Did rational animals (man) evolve from none rational animals?
TCB
 
ragmuffin << …young earth between 6,000 - 10,000 years old. We cannot have death and decay before the original sin of Adam. >>

But that’s not an argument for a 6,000 to 10,000 year old earth. Where do you get that figure from? Archbishop Ussher? Its not in Genesis either. Certainly not from modern science. That is a theological objection you need to deal with in light of the massive evidence for an ancient earth. We need to be honest with science and the Bible, not throw out science. That’s what fundamentalist Protestants did in the 1960s (the modern creationist movement), but even the creationist geologists before Darwin knew the earth was very old. Why is that? Find out. Don’t be so simplistic. Dinosaurs lived millions of years before mankind. Get used to it. :rolleyes:

The death before sin objection has been dealt with, here are some links I provided already.

Death Before the Fall: The Theology by Glenn Morton, former young-earther

Death Before the Fall: Cellular Death also by Glenn Morton

Animal Death Before the Fall

If you are Catholic, also look up what JPII and modern Catholic theologians have written on Genesis. I need to do that as well. :cool:

Phil P
 
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TCB:
I think that any discussion on evolution would be aided by focusing on 3 key question.
  • Did the universe have a beginning?
  • Did life evolve from none life?
  • Did rational animals (man) evolve from none rational animals?
TCB
A) Cosmology and evolution have nothing to do with each other.

B) Abiogenesis =/= evolution.

C) Define rationality and why it is limited only to man.

Vindex Urvogel
 
My answers (theistic evolutionist :D)

<< Did the universe have a beginning? >>

Yes, at the Big Bang, and most cosmologists today would admit that. But they don’t necessarily conclude a God was the First Cause, or even required. I do, and this is consistent with “In the beginning God created the heavens and earth…” The Big Bang was the beginning of the universe, God was the First Cause.

<< Did life evolve from non-life? >>

That we can’t say, but I would suggest God intervened at that point also, the first cell perhaps. Evolution does not speak to the origin of first life (the hardcore evolutionists here can correct me). Evolution is the study of the development of life (plants, animals, man) once its here.

<< Did rational animals (man) evolve from non-rational animals? >>

Yes, there is good evidence (okay I won’t say overwhelming) that mankind evolved from the great apes several million years ago. The scientific evidence for that has already been provided, it is basically the fossil remains of various hominid species (common ancestors of humans-apes), along with the molecular evidence – the 99% DNA similarity between homo sapiens and chimps, our closest relative today. More evidence here and links here.

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
If you are Catholic…

Phil P
It might be useful to bear in mind that, unless I am very much mistaken, there is a Papal encyclical stating that when ontogenetic disparity is invoked, evolution is perfectly compatible with the Catholic faith.

Vindex Urvogel
 
Vindex << when ontogenetic disparity is invoked, evolution is perfectly compatible with the Catholic faith >>

I am aware of two main encyclicals or writings dealing with evolution, Pius XII Humani Generis (1950) and JPII Message to the Pontifical Academy of Science (1996). With some reservations, both endorse evolution or suggest it is compatible with the Catholic faith. Pius XII was more reserved, while JPII was more emphatic:

“…new knowledge has led to the recognition of more than a hypothesis in the theory of evolution. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory.” (Pope JPII, Oct 22, 1996)

So this stuff about Catholicism and evolution being incompatible seems to have elluded the Popes. :rolleyes:

Phil P
 
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PhilVaz:
Vindex << when ontogenetic disparity is invoked, evolution is perfectly compatible with the Catholic faith >>

I am aware of two main encyclicals or writings dealing with evolution, Pius XII Humani Generis (1950) and JPII Message to the Pontifical Academy of Science (1996). With some reservations, both endorse evolution or suggest it is compatible with the Catholic faith. Pius XII was more reserved, while JPII was more emphatic:

“…new knowledge has led to the recognition of more than a hypothesis in the theory of evolution. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of this theory.” (Pope JPII, Oct 22, 1996)

So this stuff about Catholicism and evolution being incompatible seems to have elluded the Popes. :rolleyes:

Phil P
Apparently so. And I note with tremendous shame that I used “ontogenetic” and not “ontological”.

Vindex Urvogel
 
You people seem to be forgetting the Wedding at Cana. Jesus created wine out of water, and it was good wine. Now good wine must be aged to be good, but it was still new wine.

In the Garden of Eden, there were big (aged) trees from the beggening, it didn’t start from little seeds to slowly grow.

God created an aged earth. It could be young.

Our Protestant friends have much much info on creation
 
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