Creation or Evolution

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To my mind, If all things are evolving, I would ask why the things that are reputed to have evolved into higher life forms still in their original form?..
…kind of jumping into the middle of this, and not to entirely disagree with you Barbarian, but I don’t think that’s really the best answer… (?) This is how I would have responded, anyway:
…why the things that are reputed to have evolved into higher life forms still in their original form?
The answer is that they aren’t.
The common ancestors of modern species no longer exist.

Because it works like this:
**
Ancestral Species X (no longer around)
---------------- / ----------------------- \ ----------------
Modern Species A - Modern Species B**

And very much for the most part NOT like this:

** Modern Species A ===> Modern Species B**
Why are there less-evolved organisms? Because they fill niche not accessible to more-evolved organisms.
I think it was Ken Miller who pointed out that “less evolved” and “more evolved” aren’t really the best terms, at least not when used in reference to modern species. All modern species have been “evolving” for the same amount of time… it’s just that some are have remained less complex, while others have grown more complex (for the exact reason you gave above).
 
Technically, “less-evolved” means that an organism is more like an ancestral form than “more evolved.”

Hence, river dolphins are “less evolved” and sperm whales are “more evolved.”

It doesn’t mean ancestral, or less competent.
 
it is not a sufficient theory," he says. “There are other essential components that are missing.”
One of these may be “self-organisation”, which occurs when simpler units - molecules, microbes or creatures - work together using simple rules to create complex patterns and behaviour.

Evolution on its own doesn’t look like it can make the creative leaps that have occurred in the history of life," says Dr Seth Bullock, another of the conference’s organisers. "It’s a great process for refining, tinkering, and so on. But self-organisation is the process that is needed alongside natural selection before you get the kind of creative power that we see around us.

more…
More scientists are finding Darwinism to be inadequate to explain the development of life.
 
More scientists are finding Darwinism to be inadequate to explain the development of life.
Scientists have always found Darwinism to be inadequate to explain the development of life. They also find Darwinism to be inadequate to explain the formation of the Sun.

For the same reason. Darwinism makes no claims about such things.

You’ve confused evolution and abiogenesis once again.
 
Your opinion has value for what it is.
His opinion is correct, and as such has the value “true”.

Darwin called his book “On the Origin of Species”. He did not call it “On the Origin of Life and Species”. Darwin did mention the origin of life, right at the end of his book:There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.

Origins, Sixth Edition, Chapter 15, last sentence.
Notice that “originally breathed by the Creator”; I think that phrase is compatible with Catholic doctrine.

rossum
 
Darwin is dead. His comments do not have the authority of Church teaching.

Peace,
Ed
 
Technically, “less-evolved” means that an organism is more like an ancestral form than “more evolved.”

Hence, river dolphins are “less evolved” and sperm whales are “more evolved.”

It doesn’t mean ancestral, or less competent.
 
Barbarian, regarding the claim that evolution is about the origin of life:
Darwinism makes no claims about such things.

Reggie writes:
Your philosophical view here is not accepted by all Darwinists.
It’s a statement about a scientific theory. And by all means, show me a Darwinian scientist who says that Darwin’s theory is about the origin of life. If you just made that claim up, and don’t have one, feel free to tell us by not giving us a name.

Barbarian chuckles:
You’ve confused evolution and abiogenesis once again.
Your opinion has value for what it is.
The fact that you again declined to offer any evidence for your claim is sufficient.
 
Again, you offered interesting philosophical opinions about what evolution means. I would like to see the scientific support for the claims from rossum and Barbarian that “evolution” does not refer to the origin of life.

Wikipedia states that it does:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_evolution

Here’s another definition of evolution that conflicts with your opinions.

iscid.org/encyclopedia/Chemical_Evolution

Chemical evolution is essentially the process by which increasingly complex elements, molecules and compounds developed from the simpler chemical elements that were created in the Big Bang. Recent astronomical observations have discovered that chemical evolution has even led to the synthesis of complex organic molecules in space, a discovery that could have serious implications on current theories of how life developed.

library.thinkquest.org/C003763/index.php?page=origin03

A scientist:

Salk scientist Leslie Orgel, Ph.D., who dedicated much of his career to the study of how life began on Earth roughly 4 billion years ago, died on October 27 from pancreatic cancer. He was 80 years old.

Orgel, a professor and head of the Chemical Evolution Laboratory, aimed not only to discover the chemical reactions that led to the first life forms on the primitive Earth, but also to solve the mystery of how, during this prebiological time, a replicative molecule arose that could pass on life’s genetic blueprint to future generations.

salk.edu/news/news_press_details.php?id=185

“The detection of the two new aldehydes, which are related by a common chemical pathway called hydrogen addition, demonstrates **that evolution to more complex species occurs routinely in interstellar clouds **and that a relatively simple mechanism may build large molecules out of smaller ones. The GBT is now a key instrument in exploring chemical evolution in space,” said Jan M. Hollis of the NASA Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Md.

nrao.edu/pr/2004/GBTMolecules/

Barbarian is still looking for a scientist.

Here’s one:

Randall S. Perry a1c1 and Vera M. Kolb a2c1
a1 Department of Earth and Space Sciences, Astrobiology Center for Early Evolution, Box 351310, University of Washington, Seattle, WA 98195-1310, USA e-mail: rsp@u.washington.edu
a2 Department of Chemistry, University of Wisconsin – Parkside, Kenosha, WI 53141-2000, USA

On the applicability of Darwinian principles to chemical evolution that led to life

**Chemical evolution at the primitive prebiotic level **may have proceeded toward increased diversity and complexity by the adjacent possible process (originally proposed by Kauffman). Once primitive self-replicating systems evolved, they could continue evolution via Eigen’s hypercycles, and by Prigogine’s emergence of order at the far-from-the equilibrium, non-linear systems. We envisage a gradual transition from a complex pre-life system, which we call the transition zone. In this zone we find a mixture of complex chemical cycles that reproduce and secure energy. Small incremental changes in the structure and organization of the transition zone eventually lead to life. However, the chemical systems in this zone may or may not lead to life. It is possible that the transition to life might be the result of an algorithm. But, it is uncertain whether an algorithm could be applied to the systems in which chance plays a role.

journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract;jsessionid=227E53D2CEE79370C3C407476A354F23.tomcat1?fromPage=online&aid=240771

Here’s another scientist who believes that the term “evolution” refers to the origin of life:

Professor Robert Hazen (Carnegie Institution and George Mason University) is a respected and widely published geochemist who studies **chemical evolution **and the origin of life and has a mineral hazenite; named after him.

case.edu/darwin/events/

Another scientist that Barbarian couldn’t find on his own:

“A major question about life’s origins is how chemicals, which have no self-interest, became ‘biological’ – driven to evolve by natural selection,” says biophysicist Ken Dill, PhD, professor of pharmaceutical chemistry at the University of California - San Francisco, “This simple model shows a plausible route to this type of complexity.”

The general idea is that simple principles of chemical interactions allow for Darwin’s ‘natural selection’ on a micro scale. For example, enzymes can cooperate and compete with each other in simple ways, which can lead to arrangements becoming stable, or “locked in,” says Dill.

This chemical process of “search, selection, and memory” can be compared to the well-studied process of how different rates of neuron firing in the brain lead to new connections between neurons and ultimately to the mature wiring pattern of the brain. Another way of describing this phenomenon is how social ants will first search randomly, then discover food, and then build a short-term memory for the entire colony using chemical trails.

These researchers say that chemical interactions also follow Darwin’s principles of evolution, which are random selection of traits in different organisms (or chemicals in this case), selection of the most adaptive traits, and then the inheritance of the traits best suited to the environment (and presumably the disappearance of those with less adaptive traits).

dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog/2007/06/chemistry_mimic.html

The first steps in the formation of living things on earth were chemical evolution (DesMurais and Walter, 1999). So we should look for biological evolution driving forces in thedynamics of chemical reactions instead of searching for any particular biological principles

arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0510/0510023.pdf
 
In general speaking, “evolution” merely means “change.” You’ve conflated the general idea of change with Darwin’s theory of evolution.

Nothing in the theory of evolution has anything to do with the origin of life. Even Darwin merely said that God created the first living things, but offered no theory as to how.

Barbarian earlier:
And by all means, show me a Darwinian scientist who says that Darwin’s theory is about the origin of life.

(Reggie declines to offer any examples of that, but shows astronomers and chemists use the term in other ways)

Right. Just because they say “evolution” , doesn’t mean that it means biological evolution.

An important thing is to remember, that a theory is only about the things it actually makes claims about. If you remember that, you won’t be so easily misled again.
 
To reggieM -

Thank you for that excellent analysis. As Cardinal Schoenborn has been writing about how scientists, especially lately, are not respectings the boundaries of their scientific work and using it to convince themselves and others that some sort of self-creation occurred with no interest in any particular outcome. Once again, man is reduced to an accident in a cold, uncaring universe that did not have him in mind. When scientists overstep their own self-imposed scientific method in this way, they promote a personal decision to embrace atheism. What Pope Benedict refers to as the “first philosophy” of this age.

The supposed lack of connection between abiogenesis (the first life) and evolution is entirely arbitrary. No matter how often anyone says it is not. The connection, as you pointed out, is clear.

God bless,
Ed
 
I read:

Darwin is dead. Does this post really tell us anything.
Who did not know Darwin was dead?

Who did not know that Darwin’s comments do not have the authority of Church teaching.

After more than 1000 posts is any progress being made?

I am reminded of Sam Goldwyn.

He wantyed to make a film of a play by William Shakespere. it was pointed out to him that Shakespeare was dead. he replied that he did not even know that the guy was sick.
 
The supposed lack of connection between abiogenesis (the first life) and evolution is entirely arbitrary. No matter how often anyone says it is not. The connection, as you pointed out, is clear.
Thanks, Ed. That’s the way I see it also. It’s definitly an arbitrary distinction, used to win points in arguments but not based in truth.

It’s one of those tricks that is used by evolutionists when someone exposes their errors. They’ll claim “abiogenesis is not evolution”. This helps them avoid the problems, lack of evidence and fictional claims of various Darwinists who teach that life was an accidental product of chemical combinations.

I notice another bit of semantic trickery here also. Barbarian claims that the word evolution merely means “change”.

This makes it quite easy to prove himself right whenever he uses the word “evolution”.

When I point out several scientists who see Darwinian theory at work in “chemical evolution”, he dismisses that because it’s not “biological evolution”.

So, we should note that this is a game of defining terms. Definitions will be held back and words like “evolution” will be used in various claims (“evolution is a fact”, “the Pope accepts evolution”, “there is no weakness in evolutionary theory”).

Arguments will go on for a long time with the defintion of the term being concealed. When a Darwinist claim is eventually exposed, as it was in this case, suddenly a defintion will pop up. “Evolution means ‘change’”, or “I’m only talking about ‘biological evolution’”.

We can see this pretty clearly in Barbarian’s statement here:
You’ve confused evolution and abiogenesis once again.
When I point out that “chemical evolution” is indeed abiogenesis, Barbarian claims that he was only talking about “biological evolution”.

Thus, we can conclude that Barbarian wants these matters to be confused and ambiguous. Because that gives him a chance to escape when proven wrong.

I’ve argued enough on these threads to have seen this many, many times - not just from Barbarian, but from other Darwinists. They change the meaning of terms and conceal what they mean for fear of being exposed.

Ed – I’m sure you’ve seen this many times also. I hope others can see what has been going on here.
 
(insistance that evoulutionary theory is about the origin of life)
That’s the way I see it also. It’s definitly an arbitrary distinction, used to win points in arguments but not based in truth.
Well, let’s test that assertion. Tell us what Darwin said about the origin of life. Or if you like, show us in the Modern Synthesis where it makes claims about the origin of life.
They’ll claim “abiogenesis is not evolution”. This helps them avoid the problems, lack of evidence and fictional claims of various Darwinists who teach that life was an accidental product of chemical combinations.
Hmm… let’s take a look…

**There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved. **
Charles Darwin, last sentence of The Origin of Species, 1872

So all Darwin did was express faith that God did it. Remember when I told you what you didn’t know, could hurt you? It did again.

**I notice another bit of semantic trickery here also. Barbarian claims that the word evolution merely means “change”.
**

No. In fact, I told you the opposite:

Barbarian earlier:
In general speaking, “evolution” merely means “change.” You’ve conflated the general idea of change with Darwin’s theory of evolution.

I was pointing out that you were trying to conflate the colloquial meaning of evolution with the theory of biological evolution. I was objecting to the loose application of the word to apply to other things than Darwin’s theory.

Barbarian earlier:
And by all means, show me a Darwinian scientist who says that Darwin’s theory is about the origin of life.

(Reggie declines to offer any examples of that, but shows astronomers and chemists use the term in other ways)

Right. Just because they say “evolution” , doesn’t mean that it means biological evolution.

An important thing is to remember, that a theory is only about the things it actually makes claims about. If you remember that, you won’t be so easily misled again.
So, we should note that this is a game of defining terms. Definitions will be held back and words like “evolution” will be used in various claims (“evolution is a fact”, “the Pope accepts evolution”,
Close. But he said something a bit stronger:

Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI:
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.
bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

Pope John Paul II:
Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.
“there is no weakness in evolutionary theory”
)

Hmm… don’t remember seeing that one here. You have a checkable source?

Barbarian observes:
You’ve confused evolution and abiogenesis once again.

Creationists sometimes purposely conflate the two theories, and sometimes merely don’t understand the theory enough to recognize the difference.
Thus, we can conclude that Barbarian wants these matters to be confused and ambiguous.
Rather, Reggie knows that his argument has a chance only if he conflates the two. And so the irritation when he is reminded of the distinction between evolutionary theory and abiogenesis.

If Reggie would like to know the specific differences between evolutionary theory and abiogenesis, I’d be pleased to go over it with him one more time. But this time, Reggie, write it down, um? And you were going to give us a checkable source for a Darwinian scientist who said that Darwin’s theory is about the origin of life. Don’t forget. I’ll be asking occasionally about it.
 
See “Human Persons Created in the Image of God,” part 69. That is the Catholic view.

Peace,
Ed
 
(

Hmm… let’s take a look…

T

Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI:
Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution.
bringyou.to/apologetics/p80.htm

Pope John Paul II:
Today, almost half a century after publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. It is indeed remarkable that this theory has been progressively accepted by researchers, following a series of discoveries in various fields of knowledge. The convergence, neither sought nor fabricated, of the results of work that was conducted independently is in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

)

.
You always leave out this conveniently from the same source -
  1. The current scientific debate about the mechanisms at work in evolution requires theological comment insofar as it sometimes implies a misunderstanding of the nature of divine causality. Many neo-Darwinian scientists, as well as some of their critics, have concluded that, if evolution is a radically contingent materialistic process driven by natural selection and random genetic variation, then there can be no place in it for divine providential causality. A growing body of scientific critics of neo-Darwinism point to evidence of design (e.g., biological structures that exhibit specified complexity) that, in their view, cannot be explained in terms of a purely contingent process and that neo-Darwinians have ignored or misinterpreted. The nub of this currently lively disagreement involves scientific observation and generalization concerning whether the available data support inferences of design or chance, and cannot be settled by theology.** But it is important to note that, according to the Catholic understanding of divine causality, true contingency in the created order is not incompatible with a purposeful divine providence.** Divine causality and created causality radically differ in kind and not only in degree. Thus, even the outcome of a truly contingent natural process can nonetheless fall within God’s providential plan for creation. According to St. Thomas Aquinas: “The effect of divine providence is not only that things should happen somehow, but that they should happen either by necessity or by contingency. Therefore, whatsoever divine providence ordains to happen infallibly and of necessity happens infallibly and of necessity; and that happens from contingency, which the divine providence conceives to happen from contingency” (Summa theologiae, I, 22,4 ad 1).** In the Catholic perspective, neo-Darwinians who adduce random genetic variation and natural selection as evidence that the process of evolution is absolutely unguided are straying beyond what can be demonstrated by science.** Divine causality can be active in a process that is both contingent and guided. Any evolutionary mechanism that is contingent can only be contingent because God made it so. An unguided evolutionary process – one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence – simply cannot exist because “the causality of God, Who is the first agent, extends to all being, not only as to constituent principles of species, but also as to the individualizing principles…It necessarily follows that all things, inasmuch as they participate in existence, must likewise be subject to divine providence” (Summa theologiae I, 22, 2).
Mainly concerned with evolution as it “involves the question of man,” however, Pope John Paul’s message is specifically critical of materialistic theories of human origins and insists on the relevance of philosophy and theology for an adequate understanding of the “ontological leap” to the human which cannot be explained in purely scientific terms. The Church’s interest in evolution thus focuses particularly on “the conception of man” who, as created in the image of God, “cannot be subordinated as a pure means or instrument either to the species or to society.” As a person created in the image of God, he is capable of forming relationships of communion with other persons and with the triune God, as well as of exercising sovereignty and stewardship in the created universe. The implication of these remarks is that theories of evolution and of the origin of the universe possess particular theological interest when they touch on the doctrines of the creation ex nihilo and the creation of man in the image of God.
 
You always leave out this conveniently from the same source -

(Pope’s observation that contingency in evolution is consistent with Catholic belief, and God’s divine providence)

No, I’ve pointed this out more than once. It is the Pope’s refutation of the IDer/creationist argument that a random process in evolution is contrary to Catholic belief. It is what Catholic scientists have written in books like “Finding Darwin’s God.”
 
Leaving politics aside for one moment, random mutation and natural selection alone are against Catholic belief. God’s providence must always be included, and since science does not cover that vital area, the Church must.

I in no way want to defend Intelligent Design as it is defined here, namely a totally unChristian power struggle against the Right and Left. What ID does say is that the information required to build a cell does not come from thin air. Information theory is valid for studying biological systems. But such things cannot be discussed in any depth here due to the knee-jerk reactions of political combatants who do not want to give the ‘other side’ any ammunition.

It is a valid observation that random forces are not willed or directed. The ‘rational mind’ behind creation must be included.

Peace,
Ed
 
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