Creation or Evolution

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edwest2 said:
But such things cannot be discussed in any depth here due to the knee-jerk reactions of political combatants who do not want to give the ‘other side’ any ammunition.
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That’s an excellent observation. Thank you.
 
edwest2 said:
I in no way want to defend Intelligent Design as it is defined here, namely a totally unChristian power struggle against the Right and Left. What ID does say is that the information required to build a cell does not come from thin air. Information theory is valid for studying biological systems. But such things cannot be discussed in any depth here due to the knee-jerk reactions of political combatants who do not want to give the ‘other side’ any ammunition.
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You think that you’re competent to discuss the application of information theory to biological systems - in depth?

Let’s start with something very elementary: how would you measure the information content of the genome of an organism?

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Leaving politics aside for one moment, random mutation and natural selection alone are against Catholic belief.
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Not according to your Pope. Perhaps you don’t know what “contingency” means?
God’s providence must always be included, and since science does not cover that vital area, the Church must.
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St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out that God can use random processes in His purposes, as easily as anything else.
What ID does say is that the information required to build a cell does not come from thin air. Information theory is valid for studying biological systems.
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Indeed. Would you like to see how information theory shows that random mutation increases information?
But such things cannot be discussed in any depth here due to the knee-jerk reactions of political combatants who do not want to give the ‘other side’ any ammunition.
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What specifically about genetics or evolution have you studied “in depth”, Ed?
 
Is evolution only selection by survival or does behavior affect evolution? For example, if there is a tradition of running in one thousand generations of a lineage, then would the thousandth generation be excellent runners or the same as the first generation?

If the runners in the thousandth generation are better runners then we see that behavior affects evolution and it is not random.
 
Coder said:
Is evolution only selection by survival or does behavior affect evolution? For example, if there is a tradition of running in one thousand generations of a lineage, then would the thousandth generation be excellent runners or the same as the first generation?
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Only if running affects the survival of the organism and its ability to pass on its genes to the next generation,. Then variants that run better pass on their genes more effectively. The variants arise through random mutation and recombination

If running does not affect the ability of an organism to breed then it won’t be selected for and the thousandth generation might well be a poorer runner.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Coder said:
Is evolution only selection by survival or does behavior affect evolution? For example, if there is a tradition of running in one thousand generations of a lineage, then would the thousandth generation be excellent runners or the same as the first generation?

If the runners in the thousandth generation are better runners then we see that behavior affects evolution and it is not random.
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Evolution doesn’t have much to do with survival, it’s about reproduction. The rest of your question seems to be a bit too Lamarckian.
 
If the runners in the thousandth generation are better runners then we see that behavior affects evolution and it is not random.
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Darwin’s discovery was that evolution is not random. You’re a bit late, but at least you got that much right.
 
Quote:
If the runners in the thousandth generation are better runners then we see that behavior affects evolution and it is not random.
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Barbarian:
Darwin’s discovery was that evolution is not random. You’re a bit late, but at least you got that much right.
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Not sure I agree.
Are there genes for behaviour? I don’t know. Would I have to say that evolution affects behavior, and, simultaneously, behavior affects evolution.
Or, are there no genes for behavior. I don’t know. So the kind of behavior of each new individual produced may be pure chance, making evolution, based on random behavior, a random event.
Or perhaps, just random external environmental changes affects behaviors, which may or may not be random things in themselves, resulting in more random evolutionary changes.
:eek: 🤷
 
Numbers 47 and 235 counting from the left hand end.
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Are these the genes for the spinner structure and silk producing, or are they the genes for the ‘behavior’ of web spinning.
 
Thing said:
Are these the genes for the spinner structure and silk producing, or are they the genes for the ‘behavior’ of web spinning.
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Your question has an “or” in it so I am at liberty to answer “yes”.

(Isn’t Boolean algebra wonderful :))

rossum
 
Barbarian
Darwin’s discovery was that evolution is not random. You’re a bit late, but at least you got that much right.
Not sure I agree.
Are there genes for behaviour?
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Almost all genes that are expressed affect behavior. Genes are not “for” behavior.
I don’t know. Would I have to say that evolution affects behavior, and, simultaneously, behavior affects evolution.
Or, are there no genes for behavior. I don’t know. So the kind of behavior of each new individual produced may be pure chance, making evolution, based on random behavior, a random event.
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Obviously, mammals are much more plastic in behavior, so the behavior of (for example) a dog is much more dependent on learning than on genes. Whether he joyfully greets you and licks your hand or savagely attacks you is a matter of training.

There are random evolutionary changes, but phylogeny is not part of that. Only genes that are invisible to selection can be randomly distributed in a population.
 
Barbarian:
Almost all genes that are expressed affect behavior. Genes are not “for” behavior.
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Given Rossums example of a spider and its web. Genes determine the physical structures of the spinner, silk, etc. But each species, once it gets its hands on the silk, has a different ‘behavior’ and spins a different pattern web.
What genes determine the pattern of the web the spider spins.
 
Thing said:
What genes determine the pattern of the web the spider spins.
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We are still working on that one. AFAIK we do not yet have a full sequence for a spider genome, and not all spiders spin webs so even if we did it might not be a web-spinning spider.

Even mammals have some built-in behaviours. A common example is: “If it is small, furry, has big eyes and makes high-pitched noises then go ‘Ahhhh, isn’t it sweet’ and be nice to it.” This is an obvious behaviour because anything meeting the criteria is very probably going to by one of your young.

rossum
 
rossum said:
We are still working on that one. AFAIK we do not yet have a full sequence for a spider genome, and not all spiders spin webs so even if we did it might not be a web-spinning spider.
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OK.
You don’t know.🙂
Even mammals have some built-in behaviours. A common example is: “If it is small, furry, has big eyes and makes high-pitched noises then go ‘Ahhhh, isn’t it sweet’ and be nice to it.” This is an obvious behaviour because anything meeting the criteria is very probably going to by one of your young.
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rossum
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…or a rat!
But do you mean there are genes which produce an abstract concept like sympathy or empathy. Does the concept, of sympathy, for example, evolve or does the gene evolve to produce that particular concept.
 
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