Creationism and life in general

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The smallest “adjustments” I am aware of between species is three mutations. One to change the shell colour and two to change the breeding season. Three mutations. They are different species because the different shell colours mean that they live in different trees and the different breeding seasons mean that they don’t interbreed in nature.

Three mutations between Chrysopa carnea and Chrysopa downesi. Three mutations. We can easily observe that there is no mechanism preventing more than three mutations happening – you have about 100 mutations relative to your parents. What mechanism are you proposing to prevent speciation, and what evidence do you have for that mechanism.

Which is why the theory of gravity is provisional, as are all scientific theories. The current theory of gravity says that gravity is the effect of the curvature of the four dimensional space-time manifold. Any later theory may say something different.

rossum
If the examples you have given are genuine examples of one species changing into another we would have had screaming Headlines in the news. Please provide peer reviewed sources.

The space-time manifold is a mathematical tool, it does not mean the universe is actually like the model. A block uninverse would present more gentuine problems than the theory was designed to over come.

Linus2nd
 
If the examples you have given are genuine examples of one species changing into another we would have had screaming Headlines in the news. Please provide peer reviewed sources.
You are well behind the times. The first example of a scientifically observed species change I am aware of was in 1905, see de Vries (1905), “Species and varieties, their origin by mutation” where he describes the speciation of Oenothera Gigas from O. Lamarckiana.

The Chrysopa carnea and C. downesi example comes from Tauber and Tauber (1977), “Sympatric Speciation Based on Allelic Changes at Three Loci: Evidence from Natural Populations in Two Habitats”.

Here is another one I found from this year: Drovetski et al, (2013), “Geographic mode of speciation in a mountain specialist Avian family endemic to the Palearctic”.

As you can see from the dates, scientific observation of speciation is not news, if anything it is ‘olds’. New examples do not make much of a stir because we already have plenty of earlier examples to study.

Your creationist sources very carefully shield you from such examples, so they seem rare to you. They are not rare, it is just that creationist sources filter them out rather than let you read about them. When I go to Google Scholar and search on “speciation” I get 554,000 hits. When I repeat the same search on PubMed I get 18,720 hits, which is where I found the Drovetski et al paper. The reason there are no “screaming headlines” is that any headlines were back in 1905. Since then it has been mostly a case of, “Here’s yet another example. I’ll put it with the others.”
The space-time manifold is a mathematical tool, it does not mean the universe is actually like the model.
Correct. That is the reason why all scientific theories are provisional. They are models of reality, and are always at risk of being replaced by a better model.

Before Darwin there were different models proposed: Lamarckian, Paleyan etc. All of those models were inferior to Darwin’s and so his model replaced those previous models as the current scientific standard. If you wish to replace Darwin’s model, then you have to come up with a better model, together with the evidence to support it.

Einstein produced a better model with supporting evidence, and so his theory replaced Newton’s. To replace evolution you will have to do something similar.

rossum
 
You are well behind the times. . . .
I shouldn’t speak for others but my first thought was, “You will not flatter yourself out of this one.”
I take it as a complement that since eternal truths are found in the past, present and future, being behind the times is the equivalent of being up-to-date, cutting edge and progressive. 😉
Given that science has demonstrated that the average IQ has been dropping by 1 point/ decade over the last 140 years, (Michael A. Woodley, Jan te Nijenhuis, Raegan Murphy), new and improved is not so new and improved.
 
The smallest “adjustments” I am aware of between species is three mutations. One to change the shell colour and two to change the breeding season. Three mutations. They are different species because the different shell colours mean that they live in different trees and the different breeding seasons mean that they don’t interbreed in nature.

Three mutations between Chrysopa carnea and Chrysopa downesi. Three mutations. We can easily observe that there is no mechanism preventing more than three mutations happening – you have about 100 mutations relative to your parents. What mechanism are you proposing to prevent speciation, and what evidence do you have for that mechanism.
Thanks for the info. But I will wait for general acceptance by authorities I trust implicitly. I am neither a creationist or an anti-chreationist. I do believe that God created and guides the universe and all that is in it and that this leaves room for some type of evolution. I have never followed the creationist, anti-creationist arguments. 🙂
Which is why the theory of gravity is provisional, as are all scientific theories. The current theory of gravity says that gravity is the effect of the curvature of the four dimensional space-time manifold. Any later theory may say something different.
Linus2nd
 
/QUOTE]

Human experience has always been involved in how a humans theories or questions regarding their self or the creative self have gained insights and answers.

Ancient humans in family stories and also in Philosophical statements provide experiences involving angelic beings who as their light self have visited us from out of light.

How else would the Catholic Brothers propose that we have a Light Father Creator.

Just as any human theory it involves philosophy, theosophy and also self experience, which is why we argue over the experience…only because our own self belief and what that self belief provides us in life is what we are defending NOT the actual spiritual manifestation itself. Therefore if humanity today are still providing the EVIDENCE that angelic light beings visit us and give us messages then who are you to argue about this reality? Are you defending your life privileges or the spirit?

I was nearly self combusted and had an angelic intervention.

This intervention explained that Scientists are trying to destroy the Christ healing that was a theory that represented many values of astronomical data, ancient scientific study and calculus and the over view of applying the use of sound technology (Giza) and what this represented in the theory stating its NON USE regarding what the theory evalued.

Therefore the Catholic Brotherhood under the order of the Christos involved Philosphers who studied astronomical data that proved that using SUN PHI HARMONICS caused the disaster in India 8000 years ago. This was because the High Priests at Giza were re-applying the use of sound lifting techniques (just as demonstrated to a Scientist by Tibetan Monks). This caused an outbreak of skin lesions and also blood release from the body.

Just as today Philosophers in the past argued theory, Scientists write theories and other Scientists argue those theories to try to demonstrate that they are dangerous and should not be applied. This is what the ancient Christos Brotherhood did. Because this theory was ignored for its relevant data, they then formed a secret brotherhood to murder the other Philosophers who wanted to apply the Sun Teachings. This is what the secrecy is about.

Looking back into the past we observe the obvious, ICE has a large oxygen content in it, yet the atmosphere today has much less oxygen.

The Ancients activated the Covenant of the Ark, the Earth got attacked by Sun bodies called UFOs or the Ark of the Covenant. India at the Sun alignment gained the open burnt out old Sun signal, it nuked them as a direct relay of the golden UFO cell. Just as what happened in Russia when you broke the atom.

If you look at the human nature of our ancestry and state, they lived short life periods and suffered from disease. You look at the nature changes…a high oxygen content in a very ancient earth time which would provide a higher growth rate and healthy human Nature as origin evolution from the angelic visitation as I have explained in other posts as our parentage.

Burning the atmosphere 8000 years ago caused the release of a huge mass of oxygen.

Human life and Nature declined, and when observed the reasoning was given to food shortage or poor nutrition. How many humans in today’s society have a poor diet, yet still live long lives? Aren’t we still in the Nature that we gained from the ancient attack, with food abundance even though the environment was altered…the answer is yes.

What has happened since Science broke the atom? Human cellular information changed and we gained AIDS, EBOLA and many new forms of blood/skin cancers. We began to live a life of suffering and a short lived life…therefore we have moved into a period of de-evolution by causing a lack of oxygen MASS. This was caused by an increase radiation signal. Radiation proves itself to DESTROY CELLS, it does not heal cells, cells heal naturally and always have.

To try to state that radiation (Lucifer act) heals and creates is then denying that Our Father God creates and that Christ Heals…which theory are you going to apply?

As a Scientist and a Catholic you then need to question are you defending Father or telling Father he is incorrect and you are correct…have you become that egotistical that you even ignore your own ancient past brothers?

If Father has advised me that we have a light spirit called a Guardian who is in the light, never left the light and is our life source…who are you to deny it? You say I want to know the God cell and state I nearly have found it…how, when God is a light being and un-created light has no radiation in it, it is not burnt…are you going to say that the heritage information that informed you of our Father’s spirit on which you built the foundation of your own Church is incorrect?

Father has advised us all through angelic interventions that we came directly from out of Light after the oxygen MASS singing a sound allowed the space to be overcome reconnecting the Earth’s lost cell back into Earth’s Heavenly connection. We may have been sent to HELL because of Science in our past, but we certainly were saved.

Therefore Father and his real angels NEVER LEFT light, for their light was not destroyed. Our angel light self, manifested into organic life, organic life uses up and destroys the cell it created from light, yet the light presence continues to evolve. Light every day changes its own sound as it is healing back into an origin Heaven and one day will be high enough in frequency to cause the space cell matter to disappear from its high pitch.

This is why self manifesting Spiritual Teachers have demonstrated to us transformation as witnessed acts that our spirit comes from out of the Light.
 
Al Moritz;11333126 said:
/QUOTE]

When we die, we die because our Guardian Angel’s own light heals and it no longer causes us to SELF MANIFEST an organic cell. We gain healing this way and are released from the Christ Sacrifice that we all give to have assisted our Father heal the angel which separated in his own Light Heaven into small little ones of his own greater self.

MASS of oxygen as a sound value represents itself, which is what the ancient Philosopher has tried to discuss with you regarding the use of PHI HARMONIC SOUND VALUES. Therefore in an increased MASS of OXYGEN, sound is different, and when you decrease OXYGEN MASS, it causes cellular alterations.

This is the historical advice regarding the Christ formation of the OX (OXYGEN) against what the ancients caused as an ANTI CHRIST. Therefore trying to use this documentation as if it represents the act of using SOUND TECHNOLOGY has been an obvious mistake at NASA.

These documents were written as the theory of WARNING do not apply the PHI sound technology because this is what it causes as a written informed over view of the situation that the ancients caused us.

Therefore when you alter the MASS OF OXYGEN, the sound changes and sound affects the way that our cellular information oscillates or vibrates as informed sound received information from living in the Atmospheric Christ condition.

The Ancients demonstrate that we were once beautiful…only because our DNA present day information supplies this over view and most of us lost this beautiful organic outcome. We were once ALL BEAUTIFUL, without disease.

Therefore malformation and ugliness is also a condition of inherited DNA alterations besides that of disease.

The ancients prophecized a great change in the Year 2012 when the ANTI CHRIST demonic signals of the attacking UFO sun cell PHI informed outcome would cease after the OXYGEN MASS was predicted to have increased and changed the atmospheric condition itself.

Pressure changes therefore would have decreased EARTHQUAKES, VOLCANIC ERUPTIONS, TORNADOS, HURRICANES AND BAD WEATHER PATTERNS, as a total healing effect. DNA signals would have increased their inherited cellular healing outcome, why the CHRIST is involved in a total OVER VIEW of the life situation the ancients destroyed by inventing an ANTI CHRIST event.

The Philosophers therefore KNEW the importance of PROTECTING THE CHRIST so that our life could return to a higher living standard…increase in Nature to an ancient return of abundance and our food production, and increase in health, and increase in our consciousness, causing us to be loving, kind and a caring humanity.

This is the CHRIST itself.

Scientists obviously destroyed this life EVOLUTION in the 1900s act given to Lucifer congratulations for ignoring the Catholic principles, once taught for self preservation.
 
On the edge of the Universe, there is still the First Day…
I do not like that the evolution is presented as fact while it was from the beginning only a philosophical theory. 6 days of creation doesn’t give us a manual on how to create life, it only list the main sequence of events.
Bohr atom model and evolution are the main reasons for people to believe in a self-sufficient universe. While they are presented in science books as the only facts, is hard for kids to have
 
Yes and no. It is both a theory and a fact. Consider gravity. We have gravity-as-fact: things fall down. We also have gravity-as-theory: things fall down because …

Gravity is both fact and theory. The facts exist, the theory explains them. Theories are never proven, since they can change: Newton’s theory of gravity was disproven and replaced by Einstein’s theory of General Relativity. During all those changes to the theory, the facts of gravity did not change.

Evolution is a fact. Every time an insect evolves immunity to an insecticide we can see the fact of evolution. The theory of evolution explains the mechanisms by which evolution happens.

Evolution is a proven fact. Evolution is explained by a theory and, like all scientific theories, the theory is not and never can be proven.

rossum
A proven fact? Aside from viruses and bacteria, it does not apply to human beings.

Peace,
Ed
 
A proven fact? Aside from viruses and bacteria, it does not apply to human beings.
Yes it does. Human beings are evolving in many ways: evolving better responses to malaria, evolving better responses to HIV, evolving ways to live at high altitude in reduced oxygen concentrations.

All of these have been documented.

As long as children are not genetically identical to their parents and we have differential survival rates based on genes then there will be evolution. “If your parents didn’t have any children then the chances are that you won’t either.”

rossum
 
Yes it does. Human beings are evolving in many ways: evolving better responses to malaria, evolving better responses to HIV, evolving ways to live at high altitude in reduced oxygen concentrations.

All of these have been documented.

As long as children are not genetically identical to their parents and we have differential survival rates based on genes then there will be evolution. “If your parents didn’t have any children then the chances are that you won’t either.”

rossum
I disagree with your interpretation. In populations, there are usually individuals that exhibit resistance or immunity to certain diseases. Adaptation can occur using inbuilt systems. Sugar beets grown in poor soil will yield less sugar than those grown in ideal conditions. Adapting within inbuilt parameters. The rest represents a preconceived mindset.

Peace,
Ed
 
I disagree with your interpretation.
It is not my interpretation, it is the settled scientific definition of evolution.
In populations, there are usually individuals that exhibit resistance or immunity to certain diseases.
Correct. And in some of these cases their resistance/immunity is due to their genetic makeup. Those genes can be passed on to their descendants and so we have evolution.
Adaptation can occur using inbuilt systems. Sugar beets grown in poor soil will yield less sugar than those grown in ideal conditions. Adapting within inbuilt parameters.
In some cases, you are right. In other cases there is a measurable genetic difference, as with the HbC mutation (a lysine for glutamic acid substitution) that helps resist malaria and the Apolipoprotein AI Milano mutation (a cysteine for arginine substitution) which helps resist heart disease. Both are known genetic mutations in human DNA.

rossum
 
It is not my interpretation, it is the settled scientific definition of evolution.

Correct. And in some of these cases their resistance/immunity is due to their genetic makeup. Those genes can be passed on to their descendants and so we have evolution.

In some cases, you are right. In other cases there is a measurable genetic difference, as with the HbC mutation (a lysine for glutamic acid substitution) that helps resist malaria and the Apolipoprotein AI Milano mutation (a cysteine for arginine substitution) which helps resist heart disease. Both are known genetic mutations in human DNA.

rossum
Adaptation not evolution. Everyone has a different blood chemistry, so some people exhibit no, little or a strong response to medications. Some people live to be 104 while others do not. Natural medicines from roots, leaves, flowers and bark were known long before modern medicine and even the early Egyptians understood the value of pouring honey on wounds. Different people have slight differences in DNA, and that does not settle anything. There are Pygmies in Africa.

Peace,
Ed
 
Adaptation not evolution.
Adaptation does not make changes to DNA. The amino acid sequences in the DNA are changed and those changed sequences can be preferentially passed on to offspring. If you don’t die of malaria then you are more likely to have children with the malaria resistant genetic change then people without that genetic change.

These are measurable changes in DNA – actual chemical differences in gene sequences. That is evolution by any reasonable definition.

Every human being has different DNA; that is why DNA fingerprinting works. In the great majority of cases that different DNA has zero or minimal effect. In some cases it has measurable effects on likely survival. At that point natural selection kicks in and we have evolution.

rossum
 
You’ll still have populations with differences in DNA in the future. So the diversity is not natural selection. Diverse human beings will continue to appear long after cures to various diseases are found.

Peace,
Ed
 
You’ll still have populations with differences in DNA in the future. So the diversity is not natural selection. Diverse human beings will continue to appear long after cures to various diseases are found.
Diversity originates in mutations and sexual recombination, which mixes up the mutations. Most of us have around 100 to 150 mutations where our DNA is different from both of our parents. This diversity is expected under the theory of evolution, and its confirmed presence is part of the evidence for the theory.

The vast majority of this genetic diversity is neutral, having no real effect, and so will follow genetic drift as in Kimura’s neutral theory – one of the sub-theories incorporated into the overall theory of evolution.

The next largest part of this genetic diversity is deleterious: haemophilia, MS and others. Those variants tend to become less common over time due to the negative effects of natural selection on deleterious variants, though the pool may be replenished by newly arising mutations.

The smallest part of this wide range of genetic diversity is advantageous. Such variants will tend to spread through the population, helped by natural selection, becoming more common over time. In this context “advantageous” can mean a lot of things. In the modern urban environment an improved ability to estimate the speed of an approaching vehicle will be advantageous due to a reduced likelihood of being involved in a car accident. You are correct that if a cure to a disease is commonly available, then the advantage of a mutation for resistance to that disease is reduced. For example, here is an excerpt from the Abstract of a paper on the HbC mutation:

These findings, together with the limited pathology of HbAC and HbCC compared to the severely disadvantaged HbSS and HbSC genotypes and the low betaS gene frequency in the geographic epicentre of betaC, support the hypothesis that, in the long term and in the absence of malaria control, HbC would replace HbS in central West Africa. (emphasis added)

Haemoglobin C protects against clinical Plasmodium falciparum malaria.

rossum
 
This still does not explain reactions to relatively modern diseases like HIV/AIDS. Some people appear to be resistant. This does not fit a pattern, it simply illustrates that populations can adapt or have inbuilt reaction systems that work. Prior to modern medicine, it could be argued that viruses and different bacteria should have wiped out the human race. And though there have been large-scale outbreaks in the past, there are always those who survive during the outbreak.

Peace,
Ed
 
Nothing but adaptation and bones with lots of stories…
some biologists feel pretty safe to say that life come out of dead matter by chance and during billions of years: you can’t repeat this in a lab experiment:D
 
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