Creationism and life in general

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StrawberryJam said:
What is absurd, what are the contortionist mental gymnastics?
I asked about how I could know if vaccines would be good or bad.
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Vaccines are generally good. That is a scientific fact.
I could go on, and ask if you would or would not find science helpful in answering this question and why. But, based on your posts, I know you can as long as you can also hold views that have nothing to do with science. Tell me how you do it.
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I have views that have nothing to with science simply because science cannot investigate all the things that I have views on. Science is limited to observation and experiment that focus on natural, physical causes. As a scientist, I practice this self-limited method of science every day.

There are many things that are outside science. The multiverse, for example, is not science, but philosophy. Why? Because it is outside of what scientifically can be observed. You can read about this in:

home.earthlink.net/~almoritz/cosmological-arguments-god.htm

(Heading: “Is the multiverse hypothesis science?”, in section 1.3.4.)

Therefore, when Discover magazine some time ago proclaimed that the multiverse is a “scientific alternative to the God hypothesis”, it was writing rubbish.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Homeopathy, is it okay or not? Why bother with faith when it leaves it open to all sorts of fallacy and disrespect for science? Does your God want this?
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I disdain disrespect for science. Alas it is too often found among people of faith, which frustrates me. But this does not mean that faith per se is wrong, only that many people practicing faith are, at least on this point (it is important to make this analytical distinction). And the Catholic Church is open to science. Read, for example, the document Communion and Stewardship, paragraph 60 or so onward.
 
Al_Moritz said:
I disdain disrespect for science. Alas it is too often found among people of faith, which frustrates me. But this does not mean that faith per se is wrong, only that many people practicing faith are, at least on this point (it is important to make this analytical distinction). And the Catholic Church is open to science. Read, for example, the document Communion and Stewardship, paragraph 60 or so onward.
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The multiverse theory is scientific speculation. Speculation.

Not theistic speculation. Scientific Speculation.

It does not, nor will it ever start out with a Theory and then work Backwards to hypothesis.

You know that, and you won’t deny that. So why do you defend such rampant disrespect for the hard sciences?
 
StrawberryJam said:
The multiverse theory is scientific speculation. Speculation.

Not theistic speculation. Scientific Speculation.

It does not, nor will it ever start out with a Theory and then work Backwards to hypothesis.

You know that, and you won’t deny that. So why do you defend such rampant disrespect for the hard sciences?
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The multiverse may be speculation from science, but it is not scientific speculation. Read the link that I provided.

As for the remainder of your post:

Huh?? :confused:
 
Al_Moritz said:
I have pretty much given up, my frequency of posting has dropped dramatically for at least two weeks now. And I feel so much better and more balanced. I can now concentrate with much more ease on other important things in life.

Apparently the crux of the matter is that usually people do not change their mind.

… People are constantly willing to engage in the most absurd contortionist mental gymnastics only to avoid the reasonable conclusion.
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I’ve got a bit lost with where the thread’s going but have a hypothesis on this specific point. It’s not quite ready but here’s the bare bones.

In any philosophy forum most of the time we don’t post to learn or to exchange information, but rather to form tribes and influence the direction of tribes. The presentation and attractiveness of ideas are therefore at least as important as their rationality, often more so. While scientific, philosophical and theological ideas may start rational, they quickly get mutated by tribal needs.

We post because we perceive that it increases the chances of our survival. A “debating gene” may be indicated since some people have no need to debate while the rest of us do.

I’m only half joking, not seeing a better explanation. 🙂
 
Al_Moritz said:
I am too. I have discussed with atheists over the last few years, and discovered that despite their self-proclaimed ‘rationality’ a rational discussion is mostly impossible, even though there are exceptions. Then I came to this board, and had hoped that Catholics would be open to reason, but I have discovered that they are mostly – not always – just as impenetrable to reason as the atheists that I had despaired on.
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MindOverMatter2,

The other thing that drives me up the wall is that, just like most of the atheists that I have discussed with over the years, Catholics here don’t just disagree with my positions, they don’t even get them. I have quite similar positions regarding the natural order and self-developing natural processes as you do, and time and time again I have been accused of being a ‘deist’. And again, and again and again – and again, did I already say that? – I have explained why that is not so, even citing powerful Catholic philosophy and theology, and why natural causes do not compete with God since He created them in the first place. But people just don’t get that and instead stubbornly repeat their same old stock arguments that have been refuted, and ignore Church teaching on the matter if they don’t like it. Are they just dim and dumb? Well, some may be, but most here are quite intelligent. Apparently the answer is that most people, regardless of intelligence, simply shut off their minds when it comes to positions that they disagree with and which appear to offend them.

Thus people don’t understand certain things because they refuse to understand them. And there is no helping that. Reason cannot penetrate through that. Discussion is futile.

This same old story holds for believers and atheists alike.
 
inocente said:
I’ve got a bit lost with where the thread’s going but have a hypothesis on this specific point. It’s not quite ready but here’s the bare bones.

In any philosophy forum most of the time we don’t post to learn or to exchange information, but rather to form tribes and influence the direction of tribes. The presentation and attractiveness of ideas are therefore at least as important as their rationality, often more so. While scientific, philosophical and theological ideas may start rational, they quickly get mutated by tribal needs.

We post because we perceive that it increases the chances of our survival. A “debating gene” may be indicated since some people have no need to debate while the rest of us do.

I’m only half joking, not seeing a better explanation. 🙂
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Half-joking or not, actually this goes a long way in explaining the phenomena discussed.
 
Al_Moritz said:
Thus people don’t understand certain things because they refuse to understand them.
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In other words, the human intellect can only understand what the will wants it to understand. This principle is capable of simply overriding human reason. A tragical limitation of human nature.
 
Al_Moritz said:
In other words, the human intellect can only understand what the will wants it to understand. This principle is capable of simply overriding human reason. A tragical limitation of human nature.
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Please define these code words for us so that we can go forward in discussion.
 
trmyjs said:
Agreed. Also, if this came up in a religious debate this would be a major flaw and possible reason for an atheist not to convert.
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fossils being at different levels,carbon dating,missing links and science point to a young Universe - twinc
 
This is faulty reasoning. The Catholic Church needs to declare evolution as a fact for its evangelization mission? Why not contact the Vatican about this if it’s that important?

Peace,
Ed
 
Al_Moritz said:
In other words, the human intellect can only understand what the will wants it to understand. This principle is capable of simply overriding human reason. A tragical limitation of human nature.
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May I respectfully suggest you contact the Vatican about this? That way, a final answer might be given regarding the impact of this subject on conversions.

Peace,
Ed
 
Al_Moritz said:
Of course, the acceptance of evolution by the Church is not a reason for atheists to convert, but it certainly is a prerequisite to do so.
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Not necessarily. Not every one that holds no beliefs in any deities accepts evolution (or even knows that it is for that matter). Though I must saw that having a friendly disposition to science will lower a motivating factor for reticence that some may have.
ricmat said:
There are many people who “believe in ID” but have no idea what it is.
There are even more people who “don’t believe in ID”, but have no idea what it is.
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I interviewed 20 people on this and saw what you were talking about. The only conclusion I could draw is that when people are talking to each other about it they are not always picturing similar concepts in their mind.
ricmat said:
Hey, I “know all about” Baptists. Those are the folks who go to military funerals and have placards saying that the deceased are going to hell. Right?
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They are a strange group to figure out. I am not sure why they call themselves Baptist given that they have nothing to do with any Baptist organization.
 
twinc said:
exactly so - so carbon dating does not say billions/millions of years and so neither do the fossils contained therin - QED - so thank you very much - twinc
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Unfortunately for you there are other dating methods used to date old rocks: Potassium-Argon, Uranium-Lead, Rubidium-Strontium and others. Read the link I gave you, the methods are described there.

rossum
 
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