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twinc
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meanwhile try - [URL='http://www.earthage.org/radio/carbon14.htm' said:
- twinc
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rossum
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Answers in Genesis explicitly say that they will ignore any evidence that does not agree with their preconceptions. That is why I said that creationist sites are lying to you; they lie by omission.
4:6 By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.
AiG Statement of Faith.
Why would I bother to read a website that deliberately omits the inconvenient parts of the evidence?
Try quoting a site that tells us the truth.
rossum
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twinc
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oh yeah - guess who have been perpetrating the hoaxes and cons of the past and seemingly the present also as I read it - it seems you are claiming you and those on the website you have chosen are infallible and possess all information - this cannot possible be telling the truth - just lets allow others to decide as I have also provided an alternative website - and if not acceptable as well or either try [CARBON DATING OF FOSSILS - twinc](CARBON DATING OF FOSSILS - twinc)
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rossum
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Did you read Weins’ essay? Do you have any problems with it? Tell us what problems you have and we can have a look at them.
I quoted directly from AiG showing that there were problems with its work.
Here is a second website with much evidence for an old Earth: Age Correlations and An Old Earth.
rossum
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twinc
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rossum
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Carbon dating dinosaur fossils is ridiculous. All you are doing is measuring teh accuracy (or the level of contamination) of the lab’s equipment.
If you have a set of kitchen scales that weigh up to 20 pounds and you stand on those scales, you will see them register 20 pounds. Does that reading mean:
- *]Your new miracle diet works and you now weigh 20 pounds?
*]You have maxed out the scales and you weigh “20 pounds or more”?
rossum
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twinc
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in your case it seems you have minimumised to millions and billions of years - twinc
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sciencemajor
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My theology (Catholic teachings) allows me to believe in evolution, but my biology degree and basic logic tells me that evolution is illogical. Many secular scientists scoff at the idea of a virgin birth, Jesus turned water into wine or that Lazarus and Jesus were resurrected from the dead. Yet we don’t find the need to reconsider these scriptures (at least not yet). Why do we feel the need to drop Genesis because secular scientists scoff at the idea? Despite the fact that secular scientists will not allow the publication of research that contradicts evolution (see the documentary No Intelligence Allowed), there is evidence (testable/ observable) contradicting biological evolution.
Genetic mutation is considered the primary mechanism for evolution. Yet we have only ever seen the loss of genetic information (wolves lose information and become modern dogs; bacteria lose information and become resistant to an antibiotic) never the production of new genetic information required to make a new kind of creature. (We can take wolves and eventually get poodles, but we could never take poodles and breed them to get wolves- too much genetic information has been lost.) Dr. Carl Werner recently visited 60 major Natural History Museums displaying dinosaur fossils. In the majority of museums, paleontologists admitted that mammal (beavers, squirrels…) and bird (flamingos, parrots…) fossils were found buried with the dino bones, but were NEVER displayed together because that would contradict evolution. (Living Fossils Evolution: The Grand Experiment episode two book or DVD). We have fossilized soft tissue embryos from pre-cambrian rock- yet after 150 years of looking paleontologists have found only a handful of fossils that could even arguably be offered as intermediate links between 2 kinds of animal. (Darwin predicted that we should find thousands if his theory were true). Even atheist Paleontologists confess that this is Paleontology’s dirty little secret (Evolution: The Grand Experiment episode one DVD or book). If you want a quick look at scientific evidence against evolution, look at the documentaries Darwin’s Dilemma (we have found fossils of all the animal Phylums in the oldest cambrian rocks- bewildering Richard Dawkins) and Unlocking the Mystery of Life. (The last twenty years of Cell Biology, Molecular Biology and Genetics research make Darwin’s Gradualistic Theory of evolution look silly.)
Genetic mutation is considered the primary mechanism for evolution. Yet we have only ever seen the loss of genetic information (wolves lose information and become modern dogs; bacteria lose information and become resistant to an antibiotic) never the production of new genetic information required to make a new kind of creature. (We can take wolves and eventually get poodles, but we could never take poodles and breed them to get wolves- too much genetic information has been lost.) Dr. Carl Werner recently visited 60 major Natural History Museums displaying dinosaur fossils. In the majority of museums, paleontologists admitted that mammal (beavers, squirrels…) and bird (flamingos, parrots…) fossils were found buried with the dino bones, but were NEVER displayed together because that would contradict evolution. (Living Fossils Evolution: The Grand Experiment episode two book or DVD). We have fossilized soft tissue embryos from pre-cambrian rock- yet after 150 years of looking paleontologists have found only a handful of fossils that could even arguably be offered as intermediate links between 2 kinds of animal. (Darwin predicted that we should find thousands if his theory were true). Even atheist Paleontologists confess that this is Paleontology’s dirty little secret (Evolution: The Grand Experiment episode one DVD or book). If you want a quick look at scientific evidence against evolution, look at the documentaries Darwin’s Dilemma (we have found fossils of all the animal Phylums in the oldest cambrian rocks- bewildering Richard Dawkins) and Unlocking the Mystery of Life. (The last twenty years of Cell Biology, Molecular Biology and Genetics research make Darwin’s Gradualistic Theory of evolution look silly.)
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adawgj
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I don’t believe the Earth was created in six days and take the first part of Genesis allegorically. I side with evolution because it is currently the most scientific form of how organisms are today.
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rossum
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You do not need to drop Genesis. You do need to drop the ludicrously bad overly literal interpretation of Genesis that does not match what we see in the real world.
As an example, consider Isaiah 55:12 “For you shall go out in joy and be led back in peace; the mountains and the hills before you shall burst into song, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands” Are you saying that you want biology to declare that trees have hands, because a woodenly literal interpretation of the Bible says that they do? Or would you rather say that trees do not have hands, and that this passage from Isaiah should not be interpreted literally?
There is more than one way to interpret Genesis and, as the passage from Isaiah shows, it is legitimate to use scientific observation to help us to select which of the various possible interpretations is best for us.
“In discussing questions of this kind two rules are to be observed, as Augustine teaches. The first is, to hold to the truth of Scripture without wavering. The second is that since Holy Scripture can be explained in a multiplicity of senses, one should adhere to a particular explanation only in such measure as to be ready to abandon it if it be proved with certainty to be false, lest Holy Scripture be exposed to the ridicule of unbelievers, and obstacles be placed to their believing.”
– Saint Thomas Aquuinas
There are a “multiplicity of senses” in which we can explain Genesis. Be sure that you do not insist on a sense that creates obstacles for non-believers.
False. Your creationist/ID sources are lying to you. If you want, there is a complete listing of increased information gained through evolution available at: Line of Descent .
Even that “handful”, like Halkeria or Kimberella are sufficient to show that the concept of separate “kinds” is false. There is only one "kind ": the “Life on Earth” kind. Evolution only occurs within that kind.
False, we have done no such thing. Here is a chart of the earliest known occurrence of different animal and plant phyla:
Code:
Period # animal phyla # plant phyla total phyla
====== ============== ============= ===========
Recent 12 1 13
Oligocene 1 1 2
Eocene 1 1 2
Jurassic 1 0 1
Triassic 0 3 3
Carboniferous 3 2 5
Devonian 1 3 4
Silurian 0 1 1
Ordovician 1 0 1
Cambrian 9 0 9
Vendian 4 0 4
------------- ---- ---- ----
Totals 33 12 45It is also worth noting that every plant phylum originated after the Cambrian. Yet another indication that the literal interpretation of Genesis is incorrect. One of the few correct things in your quote is the restriction to “animal Phylums”. Even the author of the quote knew that including plant phyla would completely wreck the case s/he was trying to make.
Yet another indication that your sources are not to be trusted. They omit important and relevant information.
rossum
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Al_Moritz
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False. As Rossum said, your creationist/ID sources are lying to you (read also the link he provided).
In evolution you do get increase of genetic information that is creative, mostly by the phenomenon of gene duplication.
Suppose you have gene A’ that encodes for protein A. The gene duplicates upon reproduction; this is a fairly uncontroversial event:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_duplication
Then you have two copies that code for protein A. However, one copy mutates into gene B’, encoding for protein B, while the other copy remains unchanged. What do we now have? A genome that encodes for protein A and B.
This an enrichment of information over the original genome that encoded for protein A only.
By the way, the Wiki link above (you should read the entire article) correctly states:
“Gene duplication (or chromosomal duplication or gene amplification) is a major mechanism through which new genetic material is generated during molecular evolution.”
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edwest2
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Linusthe2nd
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This must be a test case to see if everyone can talk charitibly about evolution. I thought it was a closed topic but it has run on for a long time and not been closed. So I guess we are being tested. I have noticed some rather strong language though, intimations that someone is stupid if they hold a particular view, etc.
However, I think it should be stated clearly that evolution is a theory, period. It is not a proven fact. Futher, the Church has set definite limites to what the Church can accept in that regard, especially in regard to the formation of the first man and woman and the human race. So, it should be recognized that these parameters are a legitimate concern for the Church. Personally I regard evolution from species to species to be highly problematic, no where near to being a fact.
As far as the " six days " of creation are concerned, that is problematic as well, though it cannot be discounted. More likely it refers to six epochs, which would leave room for evolution. But even then, it would be theory.
Linus2nd
However, I think it should be stated clearly that evolution is a theory, period. It is not a proven fact. Futher, the Church has set definite limites to what the Church can accept in that regard, especially in regard to the formation of the first man and woman and the human race. So, it should be recognized that these parameters are a legitimate concern for the Church. Personally I regard evolution from species to species to be highly problematic, no where near to being a fact.
As far as the " six days " of creation are concerned, that is problematic as well, though it cannot be discounted. More likely it refers to six epochs, which would leave room for evolution. But even then, it would be theory.
Linus2nd
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rossum
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Yes and no. It is both a theory and a fact. Consider gravity. We have gravity-as-fact: things fall down. We also have gravity-as-theory: things fall down because …
Gravity is both fact and theory. The facts exist, the theory explains them. Theories are never proven, since they can change: Newton’s theory of gravity was disproven and replaced by Einstein’s theory of General Relativity. During all those changes to the theory, the facts of gravity did not change.
Evolution is a fact. Every time an insect evolves immunity to an insecticide we can see the fact of evolution. The theory of evolution explains the mechanisms by which evolution happens.
Evolution is a proven fact. Evolution is explained by a theory and, like all scientific theories, the theory is not and never can be proven.
rossum
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bsroufek
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I’m a believer in the Creation of Genesis literally, as in six days, just as it is written.
There are a few problems society has with this Truth:
There are a few problems society has with this Truth:
- It attributes our existence and everything we see to God;
- It attributes great power to God, who creates everything in just six days, as opposed to billions of years;
- It was written by Moses, by way of revelation;
- It describes punishment for sin.
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Linusthe2nd
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Minor adjustments don’t prove that evolution between species is a fact.
And can you show me gravity, can you tell me what it is? Answer. No. Perhaps gravity is nothing more than the active power of one or more of God’s Angels or the direct power of God governing His creation?
Linus2nd
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Aloysium
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. . . :ehh: . . . 
uch: . . . :jrbirdman: . . . :dts:God is the Source of all creation. We are participating right here in His divine plan. Any theory or philosophy that is in conflict with this Reality is not consistent with the Truth.
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rossum
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The smallest “adjustments” I am aware of between species is three mutations. One to change the shell colour and two to change the breeding season. Three mutations. They are different species because the different shell colours mean that they live in different trees and the different breeding seasons mean that they don’t interbreed in nature.
Three mutations between Chrysopa carnea and Chrysopa downesi. Three mutations. We can easily observe that there is no mechanism preventing more than three mutations happening – you have about 100 mutations relative to your parents. What mechanism are you proposing to prevent speciation, and what evidence do you have for that mechanism.
Which is why the theory of gravity is provisional, as are all scientific theories. The current theory of gravity says that gravity is the effect of the curvature of the four dimensional space-time manifold. Any later theory may say something different.
rossum
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rossum
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Correct. All scientific theories are regularly tested against reality and rejected if they do not conform. That is why Newton’s theory of gravity was eventually rejected and Einstein’s theory replaced it.
Evolutionary theory has been compared with reality since 1859, and has been adjusted where necessary so that now it conforms better to reality than when Darwin first proposed it. Mendelian genetics and Kimura’s Neutral Theory being two of the more obvious adjustments. Modern evolutionary theory conforms very well to reality. DNA sequencing has confirmed this match with reality to about twelve decimal places.
rossum
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wsm
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If you were an ancient Scientist who used sound technology as an illegal practice then isn’t it obvious that it is an application of a Scientific theory.
How could time exist before it did as a counting function? You cannot count time until time itself was established as a creation outcome or total, for that supposedly accounts for time itself.
Therefore the over view should establish that these documents were written about a real and applied Science, that it also discussed in documents the application and use of this Science and that it also discussed the outcomes of the cause of the application of this Science and then the acts that were taken as a Healing of the destruction this Science caused.
All for the purpose of stopping the re-application of the use of Sun sound harmonics via PHI calculation and application, demonstrating that we are lucky to still be alive today because the Spirit of Creation is not the Sun or Lucifer, but the Light Father and spirit.
All of this information was secreted in many books, and it was re-written only as a teaching advice by the Catholic Brothers who purposely hid its true meanings of discussion in the public forum for the safety of humanity.
Therefore only the Teachers of these documents knew its true reasoning, and as those Teachers were murdered then it is obvious that the application of teaching the wisdom was altered.
The proof that this is a science discussion relates that O = the face of time, to have a face of time to count it is counted as 12 meaning 12 hours of light.
6 days therefore cannot relate to a factor involving 12 that relates to radiated light in a Sun that accounts for millions of years of burning that relates to a current frame of radiated self or creation of the radiating light self.
Christ therefore demonstrates that it does not relate to a healing function in creation between the Earth and the Sun as a purposeful scientific application as if it applies to a angelic machination.
Instead it applies that the holy spirit of the life force needs OXYGEN = OX as the Christ reason we stay alive.
If you alter the pathways that we follow as the Christ = OXYGEN the spirit is sacrificed.
Who is the spirit? We are, because we are the incarnated and sacrificed spirit ho follow the Christ pathways OXYGEN to stay alive.
Therefore the Christ is part of an overview or observation regarding OXYGEN and why it is needed to keep us alive via its MASS content in the atmospheric angelic sounds.
It does not nor has it ever implied that the Christ reason is the creation of OXYGEN because OXYGEN naturally evolved from a release of Earth gases interacting in space above a heated Earth body.
The Sephiroth system for accounting of an angelic body related to the creation of a sound frequency or transmis SION. As a physical related scientific application to cause/create a frequency to use in the Pyramid technology. This technology caused the near destruction of life itself, a nuclear attack occurred, it was documented and then written about regarding its application. This system was destroyed as a transmission being the reason an ANTI CHRIST has been created when Uranium was converted as a converSION. The creation of uranium was part of the actual frequency application and the conversion of uranium changed the frequency the ancients used.
To change the frequency of Uranium states a FACT, that you had to alter SUN SOUND to achieve this. Now that the SUN is altered even if you stopped converting uranium, the SUN will continue to apply the conversion burning the earth itself. Therefore you have created an act of abomination and the signal you have created cannot be used for the converSION as applied by the ancients. NASA wished to apply this uninformed insight. Uranium is formed before the creation of the Atmosphere and only applies to the conversion of URANIUM, hence would continue to convert the uranium in the stone itself.
Therefore gases cannot be calculated because they are an unnatural state of release caused by an attack upon the stone. This 1 situation caused the atmospheric natural evolution and therefore cannot be scientifically emulated as some have thought at NASA.
The story was written to detail the scientific/astronomical observations that if you reduce the holy amount of OXYGEN as MASS, then you will create an ANTI state, which will then affect the cellular pathways interacting for Nature’s own cellular condition.
How can you count a Sun before the Sun is active…impossible.
Therefore the light of the Sun as a radiated body being used in Scientific observations involved in the collider theory attacks the atmospheric oxygen eating it and decreases the MASS. The radiated signals cause radiated false light, as the false Christ…giving the impression that the OXYGEN is still present even though the MASS of the body has been sacrificed.
False light in the atmosphere therefore has given the impression that the Sun to Earth light interaction is still present…yet the radiated light should be in the Sun, not in the atmosphere. Therefore the only conclusion that the Ancient Brothers could substantiate was to LOOK FOR THE SIGNS of the abomination. To notice the Christ STIGMATA as the EARLY WARNING SIGN that the cell of creation (our human spiritual condition) has been abominated. EBOLA as an altered STIGMATA therefore is enough warning to Scientists that they have altered the Act of our Natural Creation.
The Biblical documentation was written to stop scientific exploration of the Sun, it was not written as a data implied application for a scientist to apply as some have been trying to do at NASA, by pulsing radiated signals purposely at human beings to test study the Christ application
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