Crimeans Who Ushered in the Russians Now Have to Live With Their Choice

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A group of colonies seeking self-determination from an empire thousands of miles away is a little different than a group of people wishing to preserve the evil institution of slavery.
 
Son_of_Niall said:
His is an extremely strange position. I have never heard the Confederacy referred to as “not American”.
In all revolutions, those in power refer to their opponents as ‘traitors’.
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That’s because they weren’t American, unlike say the French Revolution, or Russian Civil War, where both sides of the conflict were fundamentally French or Russian but with different philosophies. The Confederates wanted to form their own nation so they weren’t American.
P.S as a side note God bless Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.
 
Depends on who you were. Many, perhaps most, of the colonists were of English descent. Some were of Dutch descent who never consented to being ruled by England. Some were of French, even Spanish descent. Some, of course, were Irish who never wanted to be “British” at all.

Reminds me a bit of the citizenship certificate of one of my great grandfathers from Ireland. In signing it, he pledged allegiance to the U.S. and renounced allegiance to “…all other soverigns, rulers and potentates, and especially to Victoria, Queen of England and Ireland.” He said that was the easiest pledge he ever made. 🙂

Treason?
 
BackHand said:
The Confederates wanted to form their own nation so they weren’t American.
P.S on a side note, God bless Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.
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Then why did they call it the “Confederate States of America” if they didn’t consider themselves Americans? The real difference was in the “United” versus the “Confederate”. The Union position was that the union was mandatory. The Confederate position was that it was consensual.

On a side note, God bless Sterling Price, former governor and (like Grant and Lee) decorated officer in the Mexican-American War. Price attempted to defend his state from Union invasion and did a fair job of it, considering the odds against him.

“At the beginning of the Civil War, Price was personally opposed to secession. He was elected presiding officer of the Missouri State Convention on February 28, 1861, which voted against the state leaving the Union. Things changed drastically, however, when Francis Preston Blair, Jr. and Brig. Gen. Nathaniel Lyon seized the state militia’s Camp Jackson at St. Louis. Outraged by this act, Price threw in his lot with the Southerners, and was assigned by pro-Confederate Governor Claiborne Fox Jackson to command the newly reformed Missouri State Guard in May 1861, leading his young recruits (who affectionately nicknamed him “Old Pap”) in a campaign to secure Missouri for the Confederacy. One of the major engagements in this endeavor was fought at Lexington, where Price defeated Colonel James A. Mulligan’s Union force in the “battle of the hemp bales” and secured the city for the South—albeit only temporarily, as it turned out. An even greater victory was won by Price at the Battle of Wilson’s Creek, August 10, 1861, which resulted in Lyon’s death and temporary Confederate ascendancy in southwestern Missouri.”
 
BackHand said:
That’s because they weren’t American, unlike say the French Revolution, or Russian Civil War, where both sides of the conflict were fundamentally French or Russian but with different philosophies. The Confederates wanted to form their own nation so they weren’t American.
P.S as a side note God bless Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.
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I have ancestors in my family who were Confederates. I have pictures of them. Should I be taken out and shot?
 
I have to say this form is giving me whiplash, so many topics all been discussed at once.

Anyway quite a few of my founding fathers were slaveholders, some like a George Washington freed his slaves ,

“I never mean … to possess another slave by purchase; it being among my first wishes to see some plan adopted, by which slavery in this Country may be abolished by slow, sure and imperceptible degrees.” -George Washington

Oh by the way how many Polish officers did the Soviet Union murder during the Katyn massacre? 20,000? Right?

See we can play the “Your ancestors did this” game all day, the point is Putin is not a nice guy he flouts international law, and is a ruining his nation’s economy. That silly Shirtless obese clown can even set up the Olympics properly how he became leader of a nation is beyond me.
 
FollowChrist34 said:
I have ancestors in my family who were Confederates. I have pictures of them. Should I be taken out and shot?
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Of course not! Understand I’m not against historical buildings, or statues, or your family heirlooms. I mean sometimes a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest might cross a line but that kind of stuff is usually fine. Also you should consider uploading them to the Internet my grandpa likes genealogy and I know other people do.
 
BackHand said:
That’s because they weren’t American, unlike say the French Revolution, or Russian Civil War, where both sides of the conflict were fundamentally French or Russian but with different philosophies. The Confederates wanted to form their own nation so they weren’t American.
P.S as a side note God bless Lincoln, Grant and Sherman.
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Were Native Americans, Americans?
 
BackHand said:
Of course not! Understand I’m not against historical buildings, or statues, or your family heirlooms. I mean sometimes a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest might cross a line but that kind of stuff is usually fine. Also you should consider uploading them to the Internet my grandpa likes genealogy and I know other people do.
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Nathan Bedford Forrest is at least passingly interesting in that both Erwin Rommel and George Patton studied his tactics and based a lot of their concepts of mobile warfare on Forrest’s. But Forrest was also a slave trader and a founding member of the KKK; an organization he shortly left after it turned into essentially a vigilante group. The remainder of his life was, as far as anyone knows, respectable. So, one might reasonably dispute the rightness of public statues to him because of his early involvement in the slave trade and the KKK.

On the other hand, Lenin was responsible for the cruel and unnecessary deaths of millions. And yet, the Russian government maintains a shrine to him on Red Square in Moscow.
 
When I said nice I meant someone who acts morally, you know someone who doesn’t arrest bands, make people like Boris Nemtsov disappear, arresting Alexei Navalny things like that.

And I fail to see what the American founding fathers have to do with Putin, yet here we are.

Well they did win the most gold but…
happyplace.someecards.com/sochi-olympics/14-images-that-sum-up-why-the-sochi-olympics-are-already-a-disaster/

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

The definition of sexy.
 
BackHand said:
Of course not! Understand I’m not against historical buildings, or statues, or your family heirlooms. I mean sometimes a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest might cross a line but that kind of stuff is usually fine. Also you should consider uploading them to the Internet my grandpa likes genealogy and I know other people do.
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Thank goodness! The photos are on the Internet already, no worries about that. 🙂

And I am with you on Putin; I just think we should let bygones be bygones on the Civil War. 😃 Practice those forgiveness skills every chance you get…

:harp:
 
FollowChrist34 said:
Thank goodness! The photos are on the Internet already, no worries about that. 🙂

And I am with you on Putin; I just think we should let bygones be bygones on the Civil War. 😃 Practice those forgiveness skills every chance you get…

:harp:
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😃 I agree.
 
BackHand said:
They lived in America, but I’m pretty sure they didn’t call themselves Americans, so no. They were Apalachee, cherokee, etc, but now many of them are.
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So lemmie see if am getting this straight.
The various native tribes that lived on this Continent long before Europeans set foot here were not “Americans”, but now they are.
The Europeans who settled in the South decided to rebel and form their own government WERE Americans, but then they were not “Americans”, but now they are.
Is that what you are saying?
 
Son_of_Niall said:
So lemmie see if am getting this straight.
The various native tribes that lived on this Continent long before Europeans set foot here were not “Americans”, but now they are.
The Europeans who settled in the South decided to rebel and form their own government WERE Americans, but then they were not “Americans”, but now they are.
Is that what you are saying?
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Pretty much. Tell me did the Indians name themselves after a European who made a map?
And yes many of them are now Americans just like the ones who acted as code writers during World War II. Yes the Europeans who formed the southern United States, were American then during the war of southern aggression, became Confederate, then when they were subdued again became American. Do you know why the Confederates weren’t American? Because they called themselves Confederates, or by the name of their state.
 
BackHand said:
Pretty much. Tell me did the Indians name themselves after a European who made a map?
And yes many of them are now Americans just like the ones who acted as code writers during World War II. Yes the Europeans who formed the southern United States, were American then during the war of southern aggression, became Confederate, then when they were subdued again became American. Do you know why the Confederates weren’t American? Because they called themselves Confederates, or by the name of their state.
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The preambles of the respective constitutions make it clear. Here are both:

"The Preamble to the U.S. Constitution: “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”[4]
The Preamble to the Confederate Constitution: “We, the people of the Confederate States, each state acting in its sovereign and independent character, in order to form a permanent federal government, establish justice, insure domestic tranquillity, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity — invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God — do ordain and establish this Constitution for the Confederate States of America.”[1]
 
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