Crimeans Who Ushered in the Russians Now Have to Live With Their Choice

[pepipop]

Of perhaps passing interest.

Looks like private banks and industries in Crimea are being seized or closed by Russia and appropriated by Russian interests. A number of Ukrainian and Tatar dissidents have been killed. Ukrainian language in schools has been banned. The Orthodox Kiev Patriarchate (which the Moscow Patriarchate hates) has had 11 of its 18 churches closed.
There’s more, but totally expectable.

nytimes.com/2015/03/25/opinion/to-see-ukraines-future-recall-crimea.html?_r=1

:yawn:

Yet I watched a documentary, last week, of an American who traveled to Crimea for himself and filmed it all. Plenty of food in the stores/markets etc… (that was another ‘tale’ told by the MSM), everyone really happy, everyone going about their business.

The American himself was surprised at the ‘untruths’ disseminated in the press,prior to his visit.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So they weren’t Russian soldiers, they were Crimeans.

it doesn’t say that, though, does it?

 

[Ridgerunner]

:yawn:

Yet I watched a documentary, last week, of an American who traveled to Crimea for himself and filmed it all. Plenty of food in the stores/markets etc… (that was another ‘tale’ told by the MSM), everyone really happy, everyone going about their business.

The American himself was surprised at the ‘untruths’ disseminated in the press,prior to his visit.

Reminds one of Walter Duranty’s glowing reports of life in Soviet Russia. He even visited some of the areas where people dead of starvation on the roads were lying unburied, and never said a word about that.

There will always be Walter Durantys.

 

[Tbrightson]

It has long seemed to me there’s more “S” to it than “M”. There is a flaw in the human psyche; a temptation, really, to dominate others. It’s fascinating to read and study the histories of some of the truly terrible modern despotisms and to see how many people found it in themselves to try to find their niche in the despotic hierarchy even when it presented a threat to them as well. Moths drawn to the flame of power over others. There are a lot of books on it, involving the Nazi regime, the Maoist regime and the Soviet regime primarily. But of all of them, it has seemed to me the best exposition, all things considered, is Solzhenitsyn’s Gulag series, because he treats of it not only as a political phenomenon but as one of personality, even of the soul.

Allowing human freedom is one of the most difficult things human beings ever manage to accomplish. It’s untidy, it’s chaotic, and can often be offensive. Always there is the difficulty of distinguishing what is truly harmful on a societal level and what is merely irritating or offensive. Always there is that irksome challenge “…you can’t change the other person by insistence, you can only change yourself and those few you can truly persuade in their hearts…”

Allowing human freedom has not been one of history’s hallmarks, and while it has its seemingly secure bastions in the West at present, and its islands here and there and elsewhere, it most definitely does not prevail on most of the globe. The waves of despotism, it seems, always wash the shores of those bastions and those islands, particularly when they become lax or weak. We’re seeing a lot of those waves today, and, frankly, a good number of those who sit safe on the shore and cheer the storm.

Beautiful. Should we really be surprised that despotism and the urge to dominate others is predominate in a fallen world? Christ wants us to be free, else we couldnt exercise free will. To promote and protect freedom is doing Christs work, and we all know thats doing Gods work is never easy.

 

[FollowChrist34]

I personally would be surprised to see human freedom as Western democracy allows and enshrines survive through this or many more centuries. As Ridgerunner points out, many basic human instincts run against it. I agree that we are seeing resistance to it growing more and more. Sustaining it requires great courage, strength and openness of mind, generosity. Fear and anxiety cause people to pull back and take less chances. The more insecure you are (individually or collectively as a people), the more vulnerable and gullible.

None of this new. You could argue it is even sort of a natural sociological regression, freedom being an incredible responsibility and source of stress. A lot of people want to get rid of it.

My guess is we will relearn the value of freedom the hard way - down the road of totalitarianism.

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[tomarin]

Tomarin, as they’re not comparable situations, the ‘legality’ issues will be completely different for both.

Unfortunately, I am not aware of an equivalent scenario, i.e. when the legal, democratically elected government had been overthrown, from one of the countries in question and what happened occurred.

Theft is theft. This so-called “coup” does nothing to mitigate it.

 

[josie_L]

We have been over this interview by this individual before. It has been reported that he is mentally ill.

By two ethnic Russian rebels, not psychologists, moreover, the two men who said this were not in Crimea when it was annexed, so me thinks that this is an attempt to discredit him for what he said, i.e., what better way than to say that he’s mentally ill (and by mentally ill we do not necessarily mean deranged or that his mental faculties, i.e., intellect, have been damaged)

p.s. A few people posting on these boards have a mental illness and that doesn’t stop them from posting and writing erudite and informative posts.

 

[Tomdstone]

Well, you’re right in one way. The 123% was in Sebastopol. I don’t know how faked it was in the rest of the country.

"In Sevastopol, the largest city in Crimea, turnout for Sunday’s referendum reached an astonishing 123% of registered voters. There may be an explanation for this number that doesn’t involve the simple stuffing of ballot boxes:

“One reporter from Kiev showed his Russian passport and was handed a ballot and allowed to vote. This raised questions in Kiev if perhaps the Russian soldiers and Russian paramilitary occupying the area since late February had been allowed to cast votes.

Overall, an impressive 96.77% of Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine. Legal scholar Ilya Somin asks whether such a result may reflect the fact that opponents of the Russian invasion simply stayed home. After all, why take part in what you know to be a Soviet-style farce? Unlikely, he says.

Brutal Intimidation

Less than 60% of Crimea is ethnically Russian and about 12% belongs to the Muslim Tatar minority, which wants to stay as far from Moscow as possible…"

forbes.com/sites/davidadesnik/2014/03/18/how-russia-rigged-crimean-referendum/

It’s absurd to imagine that most Ukrainians, let alone Tatars voted to be subject to a Russia they fear and hate. The fake referendum was condemned by virtually every member of the UN security council.

The referendum was regarded as illegitimate by most countries including all European Union members, the United States and Canada because of the events surrounding it[7] including the plebiscite being held while the peninsula was occupied by Russian soldiers.[8] Thirteen members of the United Nations Security Council voted in favor of a resolution declaring the referendum invalid, but Russia vetoed it and China abstained.[9][10] A United Nations General Assembly resolution was later adopted, by a vote of 100 in favor vs. 11 against with 58 abstentions, which declared the referendum invalid and affirmed Ukraine’s territorial integrity.[7] The Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People called for a boycott of the referendum.[11][12]

But it hardly matters now. Russia’s theft of Crimea is now guarded by nuclear missiles.

No. The official result from Crimea was a 96.77 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83.1 percent voter turnout.
There were 1,534,815 registered voters in the autonomous republic of Crimea and 309,774 in the city of Sevastopol, which totals to 1,844,589.
1,274,096 people voted in Crimea.
In the evening of 16 March 2014, Mikhail Malyshev, the Crimean election Spokesman, reported that as of 20:00, 1,250,427 people or 81.36% voted in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and 274,136 or 89.50% voted in Sevastopol for a total of 1,524,563 or 82.71% of the electorate. ITAR-TASS initially erroneously reported this as 1,724,563 voters in total, but corrected it later. The discrepancy led to some erroneous reports of a 123% turnout in Sevastopol.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
According to the Pew Research Center:
“For their part, Crimeans seem content with their annexation by Russia. Overwhelming majorities say the March 16th referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%)(…)Crimean residents are almost universally positive toward Russia. At least nine-in-ten have confidence in Putin (93%) and say Russia is playing a positive role in Crimea (92%).”

 

[Tbrightson]

The official result from Crimea was a 96.77 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83.1 percent voter turnout.

Wow, almost as much as Saddam Hussein!

 

[Ridgerunner]

No. The official result from Crimea was a 96.77 percent vote for integration of the region into the Russian Federation with an 83.1 percent voter turnout.
There were 1,534,815 registered voters in the autonomous republic of Crimea and 309,774 in the city of Sevastopol, which totals to 1,844,589.
1,274,096 people voted in Crimea.
In the evening of 16 March 2014, Mikhail Malyshev, the Crimean election Spokesman, reported that as of 20:00, 1,250,427 people or 81.36% voted in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and 274,136 or 89.50% voted in Sevastopol for a total of 1,524,563 or 82.71% of the electorate. ITAR-TASS initially erroneously reported this as 1,724,563 voters in total, but corrected it later. The discrepancy led to some erroneous reports of a 123% turnout in Sevastopol.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014
According to the Pew Research Center:
“For their part, Crimeans seem content with their annexation by Russia. Overwhelming majorities say the March 16th referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%)(…)Crimean residents are almost universally positive toward Russia. At least nine-in-ten have confidence in Putin (93%) and say Russia is playing a positive role in Crimea (92%).”

Ah, so Putin realized his first referendum result was ridiculous, so he changed it through his house organ, TASS. I’ll stick with Forbes that reported the 123%.

And since some 600,000 people have left Ukraine since the Russian takeover, about 27% of the total population, and the remainder are ruled by Russians and mobsters, it might not surprise that people polled now might have a positive response.

But let’s assume it’s all true. Then when is Russia going to pull out of eastern Ukraine where the overwhelming majority want to remain part of Ukraine? Or is Putin’s displacing 1.9 million eastern Ukrainians so far another “ballot stuffing” fraud on his part?

Stalin used to do that too; change the population and then take a faked vote.

 

[pepipop]

Ah, so Putin realized his first referendum result was ridiculous, so he changed it through his house organ, TASS. I’ll stick with Forbes that reported the 123%.

And since some 600,000 people have left Ukraine since the Russian takeover, about 27% of the total population, and the remainder are ruled by Russians and mobsters, it might not surprise that people polled now might have a positive response.

But let’s assume it’s all true. Then when is Russia going to pull out of eastern Ukraine where the overwhelming majority want to remain part of Ukraine? Or is Putin’s displacing 1.9 million eastern Ukrainians so far another “ballot stuffing” fraud on his part?

Stalin used to do that too; change the population and then take a faked vote.

That doesn’t make sense. An alleged 816,000 of ‘displaced’ Ukrainians have gone to live in Russia, hence the polls will be skewed the other way, i.e pro-Ukrainian?

More than a million people have left their homes because of the escalating conflict in eastern Ukraine, a UN official says.
bbc.com/news/world-europe-29029060

 

[putinista]

…
p.s. A few people posting on these boards have a mental illness and that doesn’t stop them from posting and writing erudite and informative posts.

I welcome your self-criticism, but I have never found you being an erudite…

 

[putinista]

From the same New York Times article:
…

Creepy, but not surprising.

Luckilly, Maidan protesters were all educated in belles artes.

 

[josie_L]

I welcome your self-criticism, but I have never found you being an erudite…

I think you just crossed a line you shouldn’t have because I never said I had a mental illness.

 

[Ridgerunner]

That doesn’t make sense. An alleged 816,000 of ‘displaced’ Ukrainians have gone to live in Russia, hence the polls will be skewed the other way, i.e pro-Ukrainian?

More than a million people have left their homes because of the escalating conflict in eastern Ukraine, a UN official says.
bbc.com/news/world-europe-29029060

The last I read, about 1.9 million Ukrainians have been displaced by Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine. Many went to Russia; perhaps some because they were ethnic Russians, undoubtedly some or most because it was safer than to thread their way through a war zone in order to go west. Most refugees flee away from the fighting, not into it. In any event, it appears most leave Russia after a short stay.

Some, however, probably those already west of the killing zone, but fearing its expansion, went west. The killing zone moving west would not be an unreasonable expectation.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

The disrespect for human life on this sub-forum is incredible.

 

[pepipop]

The last I read, about 1.9 million Ukrainians have been displaced by Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine. Many went to Russia; perhaps some because they were ethnic Russians, undoubtedly some or most because it was safer than to thread their way through a war zone in order to go west. Most refugees flee away from the fighting, not into it. In any event, it appears most leave Russia after a short stay.

Some, however, probably those already west of the killing zone, but fearing its expansion, went west. The killing zone moving west would not be an unreasonable expectation.

Separatist civil conflict, in addition to the UA taking many civilian lives and the initial aggression from the right sector in Feb/Mar/APR 2014, is the cause of E Ukrainians leaving.

Please link to the data that most left Russia after a short stay. I am sure the Ukrainian authorities and the UN will have figures of those that moved West, as all will have to re-housed and looked after - just as they know the figures of those that moved to Russia.

 

[BackHand]

In the USA, state of California, Americans are putting a proposal on the ballot that would authorize the killing of homosexuals or lesbians by bullets to the head or any other convenient method. If I had a choice between being harassed, or being shot by bullets to the head by the Americans in California, I would choose harassment. To me, being shot in the head by bullets or some other convenient method, as is now being proposed by the Americans in California, seems to be a somewhat more severe example of homophobic violence than is seen in many other places in the world today. Americans have the tools to stop proposals such as this, but they apparently lack the will to do so.
pressreader.com/usa/los-angeles-times/20150324/281784217586177/TextView

Did you even read the article that you are using to slander America?

This is from the article and I quote.

“An online petition at change.org calling for McLaughlin to be disbarred had more than 17,000 signatures Monday.”

So the same lawyer who introduced the bill has 17,000 people who want him to be disbarred, so much for American homophobia.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Separatist civil conflict, in addition to the UA taking many civilian lives and the initial aggression from the right sector in Feb/Mar/APR 2014, is the cause of E Ukrainians leaving.

Please link to the data that most left Russia after a short stay. I am sure the Ukrainian authorities and the UN will have figures of those that moved West, as all will have to re-housed and looked after - just as they know the figures of those that moved to Russia.

The Right Sector indeed! The whole tribe of them garnered 2% of the vote in the recent elections. Not so terribly long ago, Ukraine had the separatists pushed nearly out of Ukraine; that is until Russia added more troops and advanced arms. Now eastern Ukraine is nothing but a staging area for the Russian military for Putin’s next move.

How are Putin supporters going to explain the next Russian advance into Ukraine? I do wonder. I think, given the annexation in the last few days of Ossetia, we know what’s going to happen to what Russia already occupies. Are they going to have a fake referendum first, or just annex it?

 

[BackHand]

I am repeating myself, but perhaps for the best.

It takes only one saint to make a good Autocracy.
It takes several saints to make a good Oligarchy.
It takes many saints to make a good Aristocracy
It takes an impossible majority to make a good Democracy.

If one man rules, naturally, it concentrates power. Yet, the benefit is the possibility of appeal to an individual conscience. There are numerous examples of kings changing their actions simply because of a personal appeal to their conscience.
In short, the rule of an autocrat maintains the primacy of human relations, rather than an that of dehumanised, abstract interests.

The problem with this is that the reverse is also true,

It takes only one madman to make an evil aristocracy.
It takes only a few madman to make an evil oligarchy.
It takes many madman to make an evil aristocracy.
It takes a large majority to make an evil democracy.

You’re essentially putting all your eggs in one basket in the hopes that an authoritarian ruler will be benevolent, for every Napoleon, Caesar, Augustus, you get a Nero, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, etc.