Criminalization of drugs

[edwest2]

It doesn’t make sense, and it’s immoral. It’s going to be up to the laity to observe the obvious and to make changes in secular society.

The institutional Church will follow after slowly–allowing a patina of time to develop over its flip/flop in position. Along the lines of its past support of slavery to its current condemnation of human trafficking.

The institutional Church can be counted on to follow the Pauline practice of accommodating the State whenever possible.

Our institutional Church’s continuing reluctance to follow the Gospel message of tolerating the use or even abuse of “drugs” for non-therapeutic purposes amounts to a form of habitual sin. We’re so used to the sin that we don’t even recognize it as such.

Well said.

Ed

 

[AnimalSpirits]

Yes, you can support drug legalization. While “drugs” (I find the word too vague to be useful) are sinful, whether they should be legal or not is never defined as a matter of faith and morals.

As to the whole issue, I am of the mind that anything politicians call “The War on…” will act as an attractant for the most politically-expedient and the most idiotic legislation. The phrase is a call to enact laws while wearing blinders to the ramifications outside their next campaign. While I am against legalization of most drugs, I do believe in de-criminalization of most drugs, as well as drastically downgrading penalties for all drug possession.

Good post, sums up the issue very well.

 

[Ignatius]

I know where the catholic church stands on recreational drug use.I agree wholey.but the idea of putting someone in jail for doing something(getting high) that is no different(IMO) than what can be achieved with alcohol

I disagree.

 

[pnewton]

Too many people think that something becoming legal suddenly makes it OK in every sense of the word.

No one has made that claim here.

We do not live in the United Do Whatever You Want States. The Catholic person can never abandon the truth and our voices need to be heard in the public square.

No one said that we can.

I’m already seeing way too many lame arguments about legalizing certain drugs that range from “it’s too vague” to “and cheeseburgers aren’t good for you either.”

Good. Then let us address all the legitimate points and quit all this straw man argumentation. My main point is that while drugs ruin lives, so does incarceration and we are number one in the world, ahead of the worst third world dictatorships and the worst countries in history. I see this as a sign that we are in the wrong.

 

[TheAdvocate]

The difference between drug use and alcohol use is as follows: one may drink alcohol without the intent to get drunk (case in point, last night I had a single glass of wine with my supper), whereas (save for medicinal needs) users of drugs *intend *on getting high when they use, which is sinful.

 

[exnihilo]

The difference between drug use and alcohol use is as follows: one may drink alcohol without the intent to get drunk (case in point, last night I had a single glass of wine with my supper), whereas (save for medicinal needs) users of drugs *intend *on getting high when they use, which is sinful.

I’m not sure that is a helpful distinction. It seems to me, based on my understanding of Catholic teaching, what is wrong is when you take substances to the point you lose or severely impair your rational faculties. For alcohol the effects are based in part on dosage. A bit of wine can cause a mental effect without impairing your rational faculties. From what I understand in Catholic teaching feeling any mental effects of alcohol is not necessarily sinful.

I’m not an expert on drugs (and there are so many you can’t generalize) but I would imagine for many it is possible to feel mental effects without impairing your rational faculties. If that is true then there is no inherent difference in alcohol and other drugs. The issue comes down to how people use them or the dosage they take. It may well be that people who use drugs tend to over consume them. But that does not make the drugs bad it makes the behavior wrong.

For instance the Incas used to chew on coca leaves. They got a dosage near as high as people do when they use refined cocaine. The dosage was low so it did not have the intense effects many receive today. But it would seem to have some sort of impact on your mental faculties. It might cause enhanced concentration, like coffee. And it might cause a slight happy feeling, like drinking a bit of wine. If that were so then what would be the difference in this drug and other substances we typically use and are not considered inherently sinful?

 

[epan]

Cheeseburgers don’t have chemicals that makes people become addicted to them, they don’t impair a person’s reason, etc

That is not exactly true. There are obese fast food addicts whose judgement is impaired, and whose health condition is dire. In fact, obesity causes far more medical issues and suffering in the US than illicit drug use.

But looking at it from another angle… rather than trying to prohibit illicit drugs or cheeseburgers, why not try to address the problem at the source, which is in the mind of the addict. Without the demand, there would be no supply.

For example, in the Scandinavian countries addicts are supplied their drugs at medical clinics. This way the dose is controlled, the purity of the drugs is known, the needles are clean, and the health of the addict can be monitored. Also, an addict does not endure the financial stress that leads some to petty crime, or into financial ruin. Instead of treating an addict as a criminal, and addict is treated as a person who has a drug problem, and who needs to be cared for. Another important part of every visit is the offering up of help, if the addict has reached the point that he/she wants assistance in working on the addiction, and getting off the drugs.

I see this approach as much more humane, as far cheaper, and as far more effective, than the US approach of sentencing addicts to long prison terms.

As a final note, I would mention anecdotally, that I have not met an experienced cop, with whom I have discussed this issue, who endorses our current drug laws.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Suffice to say, most people who have real world experience with drugs and drug users believe that pot legalization is a bad thing.

If you or I were given the choice to ban alcohol, I think I would also ban it. The negatives outweigh the positives SO heavily.

I think my reasoning here takes human fulfillment and social concord to be VERY important values. The serious drug people I’ve met seem to have had their lives forestalled and even negated. (This is why some use the word “waste” or “waste case”.)

There are better hobbies than drugs. Try sports.

As far as, “Suffice to say, most people who have real world experience with drugs and drug users believe that pot legalization is a bad thing.”

Besides the fact that this is merely your opinion, just who are these “who have real world experience with drugs and drug users”?

Is it those who are doing the locking up or those who are being locked up?

Concerning, “If you or I were given the choice to ban alcohol, I think I would also ban it. The negatives outweigh the positives SO heavily.”

Believe it or not, there was a real world experiment with that and it did not go over very good.

By the way, unless there was an “exception” granted than your banning alcohol would also ban the Catholic Eucharist.

Are you advocating banning the Eucharist?

As far as, “There are better hobbies than drugs. Try sports.”

Do you think that you should be the “one” to tell every other human being what they should or shouldn’t do for a “hobby”?

Do you think/believe that God gave some of us free will to take away the free will of others?

 

[Tom_Baum]

The American Medical Association attributes tens of thousands of deaths annually to alcohol, and hundreds of thousands of deaths annually to tobacco. Deaths associated with marijuana are those in which it is used in combination with other drugs, or in drug-related violence, or in unusual cases in which it is ingested in heroic proportions. I’ve never seen a reputable source identifying over a hundred deaths annually associated with marijuana per se. Alcohol and tobacco are demonstrably more lethal than marijuana.

For the most part, people ingest alcohol for its drug effects. It’s that simple. In our culture people don’t like to admit that alcohol and tobacco are drugs because people don’t like to admit that they are drug users, that they have a drug habit, or that they are drug-dependent.

I don’t use alcohol, tobacco, or marijuana. I enjoy a Coca-Cola or other caffeinated beverages, so I acknowledge my use of the drug, caffeine.

In good conscience I can’t see sending a person to jail for producing or distributing drugs which are less-harmful than tobacco and alcohol.

As far as, “Deaths associated with marijuana are those in which it is used in combination with other drugs, or in drug-related violence, or in unusual cases in which it is ingested in heroic proportions.”

I could be wrong but probably the only deaths associated with “ingested in heroic proportions” would be someone who choked to death from it being crammed down their throat.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Too many people think that something becoming legal suddenly makes it OK in every sense of the word. It doesn’t.

We do not live in the United Do Whatever You Want States. The Catholic person can never abandon the truth and our voices need to be heard in the public square. I’m already seeing way too many lame arguments about legalizing certain drugs that range from “it’s too vague” to “and cheeseburgers aren’t good for you either.” WAKE UP! My fellow Catholics!

Legal does not always equal good, especially when it comes to illegal drugs. And sin? What’s that? “We want what we want” is all that matters? No.

Ed

Illegal has absolutely nothing to do with whether something is right or wrong, only that it is illegal.

Something legal can be good or bad, something illegal can be good or bad.

Seems to me that it is very wrong, wrong as in right and wrong not in legal and illegal, for something that can be a help, medically speaking, for someone and it is denied because it has a “bad image” to some of those with power to make it illegal.

 

[pnewton]

Cheeseburgers don’t have chemicals that makes people become addicted to them, they don’t impair a person’s reason, etc

Sure they do - melted cheese.

 

[mikekle]

Illegal has absolutely nothing to do with whether something is right or wrong, only that it is illegal.

Something legal can be good or bad, something illegal can be good or bad.

Seems to me that it is very wrong, wrong as in right and wrong not in legal and illegal, for something that can be a help, medically speaking, for someone and it is denied because it has a “bad image” to some of those with power to make it illegal.

The same can be said about Heroin, in the US, Im so tired of hearing people say this drug has ZERO medical value, while some other countries use it medically, usually as a pain killer.

Plus, the name ’ Heroin’ is actually the brand name the Bayer company gave to it, when it was sold as a general pain killer…if it has no medical use, why did it come about as a widely used painkiller then…?? LOL

Heroin, is actually just a stronger ‘version’ of already widely available prescription painkillers, like perocet, vicoden, opana, etc. Comes from the exact same plant, produces the exact same effects, only stronger, it is basically ‘strong morphine’, and EXACTLY like morphine when taken orally, its ONLY extremely powerful when injected, when it converts to 6-MAM, then of course, it metabolizes into basic morphine once in the body, then again, a person COULD inject a legal percocet tablet and it would also become extremely powerful, so I wonder why these legal painkillers arent labeled the same as Heroin…when its clear, BOTH can be abused, BOTH can also be used in moderation at an acceptable dose…???

Im not sure why the US says it has no medical use, when it clearly does…? In my opinion, way too many people view heroin and immediately think of a junkie, sitting in an alley injecting himself, or stealing to get more dope, but they fail to think about people than live in constant pain with little relief and how more than likely, Heroin would relieve their pain, along with being very cheap to produce…ahh, maybe this is the real reason why the US medical community wants nothing to do with it…they only want ‘products’ that are going to bring in piles of money.

 

[Tom_Baum]

The same can be said about Heroin, in the US, Im so tired of hearing people say this drug has ZERO medical value, while some other countries use it medically, usually as a pain killer.

Plus, the name ’ Heroin’ is actually the brand name the Bayer company gave to it, when it was sold as a general pain killer…if it has no medical use, why did it come about as a widely used painkiller then…?? LOL

Heroin, is actually just a stronger ‘version’ of already widely available prescription painkillers, like perocet, vicoden, opana, etc. Comes from the exact same plant, produces the exact same effects, only stronger, it is basically ‘strong morphine’, and EXACTLY like morphine when taken orally, its ONLY extremely powerful when injected, when it converts to 6-MAM, then of course, it metabolizes into basic morphine once in the body, then again, a person COULD inject a legal percocet tablet and it would also become extremely powerful, so I wonder why these legal painkillers arent labeled the same as Heroin…when its clear, BOTH can be abused, BOTH can also be used in moderation at an acceptable dose…???

Im not sure why the US says it has no medical use, when it clearly does…? In my opinion, way too many people view heroin and immediately think of a junkie, sitting in an alley injecting himself, or stealing to get more dope, but they fail to think about people than live in constant pain with little relief and how more than likely, Heroin would relieve their pain, along with being very cheap to produce…ahh, maybe this is the real reason why the US medical community wants nothing to do with it…they only want ‘products’ that are going to bring in piles of money.

It is way past sad when money is the determining factor concerning drugs rather than medicinal use.

Especially when money is, I would say, the biggest contributing factor in the violence associated with drugs.

It is also way past sad when politics even enters into the medicinal use of drugs.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

It is way cheaper and more effective to force drug users into rehab than put them into prison.

 

[Tom_Baum]

It is way cheaper and more effective to force drug users into rehab than put them into prison.

Are you saying that ALL people who use drugs should be FORCED into rehab?

Would this be all drugs?

Would this be all illegal drugs?

Would this be only some illegal drugs?

Would this be those that use drugs “all the time”, so to speak?

Would this be those that use drugs some of the time?

Have you every given any thought to the idea that sometimes we just might have to come to the conclusion that we can NOT run other people’s lives?

Ever given any thought to the idea that we should make “rehab” more accessible and more affordable?

I don’t know if you know about some of the prices associated with rehab but many, if not most, are, in my opinion, obscene.

I do think that it should be looked at from a different angle than the criminal justice system.

Most of the “criminality” associated with drugs come from the “fact” that they are illegal.

 

[mikekle]

Are you saying that ALL people who use drugs should be FORCED into rehab?

Would this be all drugs?

Would this be all illegal drugs?

Would this be only some illegal drugs?

Would this be those that use drugs “all the time”, so to speak?

Would this be those that use drugs some of the time?

Have you every given any thought to the idea that sometimes we just might have to come to the conclusion that we can NOT run other people’s lives?

Ever given any thought to the idea that we should make “rehab” more accessible and more affordable?

I don’t know if you know about some of the prices associated with rehab but many, if not most, are, in my opinion, obscene.

I do think that it should be looked at from a different angle than the criminal justice system.

Most of the “criminality” associated with drugs come from the “fact” that they are illegal.

totally agree…GREAT post!

Ive always thought it odd the US Govt considers the drug cartels to be terrorist organizations, and we all know the military goes after terrorist organizations in other parts of the world, BUT when it comes to the mexican cartels, the Govt doesnt seem to do anything…I think they obviously know where these cartels ‘headquarters’ or base of operations are, and/or the HUGE plots of land devoted to growing opium poppies and cocoa plants, why dont we see covert military operations attempting to thwart their activities? They do this with Islamic terror groups…??

Plus, these cartels are KILLING many of our kids within the US…still the US does nothing…?? Im sorry, but from what I see, I have to believe the US is somehow in collusion with some or all of the drug cartels and probably making money off the drug trade as well. How else could enough dope be getting across the border on a daily basis, to supply literally every town in the US?? That is ALOT of drugs, that would be a line of semi trucks stretching for miles, and this happens every day?! WOW

I doubt they would ever admit to this, but when you look at whats going on and all the circumstances, it becomes pretty clear, the drug cartels are being ‘allowed’ to operate within the US.

 

[Captain_America]

Totally opposed to legalization of drugs.

To me, this issue really is a way to distract the TV-watching, gum-chewing masses in America from dealing with REAL social issues. . . of the distribution of power and wealth, of lower education standards and levels, of stagnant wages, etc.

 

[epan]

It is way cheaper and more effective to force drug users into rehab than put them into prison.

Portugal had one of the highest addiction rates in Europe, estimated at 1 percent of the population. They tried harsh criminal penalties, which had no positive effect. So, they are now trying a radical change in policy. They release the convicted drug users from prison, and then put the same amount of money that was being used for drug enforcement and incarceration into education and rehabilitation.

Guess what? They have now cut their addict population in half, and they are still making progress.

 

[Zzyzx_Road]

Totally opposed to legalization of drugs.

To me, this issue really is a way to distract the TV-watching, gum-chewing masses in America from dealing with REAL social issues. . . of the distribution of power and wealth, of lower education standards and levels, of stagnant wages, etc.

Sounds like you’re very okay with The War On Drugs. You’re very okay with the violence resulting from the gangs who control the trade. You’re very okay with giving suppliers a tax-free stream of income. You’re very okay with business disputes among suppliers and users being adjudicated on the streets.

We have to deal with the world as it is, not what we would wish it to be. Yes Catholicism is against illegal drug usage, but Catholicism is also against violence.

 

[mikekle]

Sounds like you’re very okay with The War On Drugs. You’re very okay with the violence resulting from the gangs who control the trade. You’re very okay with giving suppliers a tax-free stream of income. You’re very okay with business disputes among suppliers and users being adjudicated on the streets.

We have to deal with the world as it is, not what we would wish it to be. Yes Catholicism is against illegal drug usage, but Catholicism is also against violence.

The drug cartels absolutely LOVE people like this! they dont want them legal either, and the US is playing right along with them.

In the drug trade, the violence is ONLY there due to their illegal nature, the risk involved in producing, moving them, storing them, trafficking, etc. if they were all legal, there would ZERO violence, as most of the hard street drugs are extremely cheap to grow and produce, the illegal status keeps their market prices WELL above what they should be.

It may be me only, but Ive always thought its very strange that the exact same plant that they make heroin from, is also grown in large amounts by the US pharmaceutical industry, for their narcotic painkillers, and if someone gets caught with these on the street, WITHOUT the OK from a doctor, it is a very serious felony, but if they have that OK from a doctor, it suddenly becomes perfectly fine and legal…??? If this isnt absolute proof of the far reaching conspiracy, I dont know what else is!!! LOL