Criticizing clergymen, our seminary system, a pope, etc

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Aspidistraflyer

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So, many members on this forum give the impression that criticizing a pope, or bishops, or a system in the church, is inherently sinful or bad or something.

So, did Dante sin by putting popes from his lifetime in Hell, and did he sin by putting others in Purgatory? Did Boccaccio sin? Should we not read the Divine Comedy or the Decameron because of this?

When sexual abuse is uncovered, and laymen propose reforms, is that wrong? Is a PTA at a Catholic school a sin? The Gregorian reforms of the 11th century were implemented by St. Gregory VII, but it was the lay faithful who first pushed for them. Were they wrong to criticize the clergy’s practice?

Did St. Catherine of Siena presume too much when she pointed out the pope was refusing the vows he made to God by refusing to return to Rome? Did St. Louis IX sin when he removed clergy from some of the positions in his kingdom? Was St. Paul wrong to publicly criticize Peter? Was the Bible wrong?

There is little that is more Catholic than criticizing the pope, or clergy, or Catholic institutions. We’ve been doing it 2000 years. Why do we have to stop now?
 
I think the question here is intention.

Do these people want to help build up the Church and eliminate error and sin within her, or do they have an agenda against political ideologies/specific people/the Church as a whole?
 
Okay, so, if someone criticizes clergy, you will withhold judgment of that criticism unless the intent is obviously bad?
 
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I also think it’s about what people complain about. If it’s to do with the sex scandals, then criticism is both valid and appropriate, IMO. If it’s because, as we see on these forums, people think the Pope is too liberal, that’s a matter of opinion and it also presumes people know the Pope’s intentions better than the Pope.

I say this as an agnostic, by the way.
 
Okay, so, let’s take that line. If someone goes, “This pope is too liberal,” that’s not constructive. But if someone says, “This pope is not clear and that is a big problem,” is THAT an unfair criticism? I’m not asking whether you agree with it; I am asking whether you think that this criticism is - out of hand - an uncharitable or disrespectful claim.
 
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My problem is primarily with the sort of statement that goes something like, “Well, he’s the pope,” or “Our priests were called by God,” or something. That sort of thing.
 
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Although both are opinion, saying “the Pope is unclear” is not what I would call disrespectful. However, I would say “the Pope’s too liberal” is not constructive, nor does it lead to conversation as the former does.
 
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Aspidistraflyer said:
Okay, so, let’s take that line. If someone goes, “This pope is too liberal,” that’s not constructive. But if someone says, “This pope is not clear and that is a big problem,” is THAT an unfair criticism? I’m not asking whether you agree with it; I am asking whether you think that this criticism is - out of hand - an uncharitable or disrespectful claim.
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Because we have the internet and 99% of the time that “criticizm” is headline ripping and opinion about how the media makes something appear and not reality.
 
Xanthippe_Voorhees said:
Because we have the internet and 99% of the time that “criticizm” is headline ripping and opinion about how the media makes something appear and not reality.
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This is an excellent point. A lot of the time on CAF, we have threads popping up with people criticising the Pope on things he’s never actually said, or assuming his intentions are less than honourable. It works both ways.
 
But, I am not primarily concerned with Francis as such. I am concerned with how every time anyone criticizes any one with a collar or big hat, you get, “Well, God chose him,” or “You don’t know what it’s like,” or something
 
My opinion is disagreement and criticism are allowed but it must be constructive and respectful. A good rule of thumb may be would you say it to their face?
 
Okay, alright, but these are all platitudes.

I wanna hear from the people who are on every thread saying you can’t criticize the pope or the clergy.
 
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well aspidistraflyer, two things, you are on a catholic forum, a lot of the members here see themselves as protectors of the Church, so any Negative Criticicsm is seen as a personal attack, and there for you get the comments of how sinful and bad such a comment was.

Second is, you are not going to win this arguement, negative criticism even if it is true and shows a need for change is still seen as an attack, and especially so in regards to religion. No one likes negative criticism even if it is constructive, The church though is doing everything via written in stone. what ever is the topic was done some how to some degree 2000 some odd years ago, and then through out time it was changed ever so slightly or adapted , one could call that " cherry picking " but then the debate begins, well it isnt really cherry picking because and then the rationalization begins.

in the end Aspidistraflyer, is Criticizing the Church inherently sinful or bad or something, no. It is merely ones opinion, nothing more, nothing less, if an opinion influences someone to leave the church that is on the individual not the one with the opinion. An chances are the one who is easily influenced was on the fence to begin with well before the opinion came into play.

Here though you just have to remember there are still hold outs from the old C.A.F who consider themselves " church militants " and are very eager to point out in a very hypocritical manner of how wrong others are and then they pretend to be some kind of moral compass and declare someone to be " sinful " or whatever.

Granted current upper chelant clergy are negatively criticizing the Pope left and right, and yet it is acceptable for them to do so for what ever reasoning.

Here though is a different crowd, and once you " offend " someone , doesnt matter if you are voicing your opinion or not, that flag button gets hit and then it is game over, all because someone is offended. But if ya want to criticise with out any sort of verbal lashing you just have to look else where online to speak.
 
Aspidistraflyer said:
I wanna hear from the people who are on every thread saying you can’t criticize the pope or the clergy.
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I haven’t seen anyone say “you CAN’T criticize.” You can say you disagree, you can say “I think he should xyz . . .” It’s when posters start saying that a pope or a priest is a heretic, or is leading people into heresy, or is leading the Church astray – THAT’s where they are over the line.
 
sure, aspid , i can distill my comment, to a bare bones, just go to a different forum where criticizing isn’t a big deal.
 
Someone today said of a suggestion that Francis should do something that JPII did,
“It’s unfair to both to compare each other, and unfair to Christ who has called them to the Petrine ministry.”

That was just from a thread today. Now, you can think what you want of whether it is a fair comparison, but the idea that saying, “JPII did this and it turned out well, so Francis should do it too,” is somehow disrespectful of Christ, is not something I can agree with.
 
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