Criticizing clergymen, our seminary system, a pope, etc

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What is more, years ago with a username I lost the password for, I suggested that seminary should be more rigorous, and I got a lot of, “God chooses the priests! If we make seminary harder God’s choices might not make it”

Just 2 examples
 
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Aspidistraflyer said:
Someone today said of a suggestion that Francis should do something that JPII did,
“It’s unfair to both to compare each other, and unfair to Christ who has called them to the Petrine ministry.”
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An opinion that a statement is unfair is hardly the same as saying “you CAN’T say that.”
 
Unfair to Christ though? If it actually is unfair to Christ, you can’t morally say it.
 
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Girl.

But Lou2u said it perfectly. Most of the “issue” that is taken with the “issue” of the Pope is purely based on how the media spun it and how the Pope should somehow teach them a lesson, clarify things, or not speak…which is inherently bizarre.
 
Aspidistraflyer said:
So, many members on this forum give the impression that criticizing a pope, or bishops, or a system in the church, is inherently sinful or bad or something.
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No, we’re just tired of the endless Pope-bashing and clergy-bashing from armchair quarterbacks. We get enough of that in the secular media and then we have to come here and read more of it.

There is a constant undercurrent of criticism of Pope Francis for being too “liberal” on here and a lot of complaints about every single little thing priests do, from what footwear they wear to Mass, to them not being friendly or responsive enough in their communications with parishioners, to them using wording somebody doesn’t like in a homily or a letter sent out to the parish, to them allegedly not doing things according to the appropriate rules at Mass or in the Confessional.

I am generally a proponent of free speech, but even I am tired of the endless string of complaints. It’s not anything heroic. It’s just a bunch of whining, largely from uninformed people who often have some bias or hangup.

Comparing it to Dante is pretty funny though. I’m sure everybody wants to think they’re the next Dante when really they are just the next nobody with an opinion on an Internet forum.
 
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This was just the most recent example. On the thread “Is Francis too liberal,” you saw a lot of defenses of him that basically said, “Because he is pope, God chose him, and because God chose him, that’s that.”

That argument is bad.
 
Aspidistraflyer said:
On the thread “Is Francis too liberal,” you saw a lot of defenses of him that basically said, “Because he is pope, God chose him, and because God chose him, that’s that.”

That argument is bad.
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So make another argument in your favor or in his favor, whichever you choose. Don’t make a whole thread complaining about somebody making an argument you don’t like.
 
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pft rigorous , like what an obstacle course should be put in ? Seminary is nothing but a college, with about 7 years of historical education, an the last year or so is pastoral training, God may choose who He wants to have as a priest, but that doesnt mean the Bishop is going to accept the person. Practical skills like business management, financial management , job training that teaches people how to manage others, are asset skills that help people become better at being a " priest " the idea of God choosing is true, but the practicalness is that in the end Seminary College, and the Church is to a large degree run like a business, you can be the kindest person with the best heart and know your bible inside and out, an that alone isn’t enough to be accepted into the seminary because one has to be able to sit in the most boring of college classes and be able to pass tests.

And then some where down the line you have to re educate yourself and go to seminars on how to be a better public speaker, and refresher courses on how to write , an etc.
 
The argument “the Pope is too liberal” is not a good argument to make. It’s not even an argument, it’s an opinion that is all too often unsubstantiated. But yet people claim it regularly, and back it up using a source that spins as much as it can. It’s not fair to the Pope to do that.
 
Bears don’t really need or respond to 3 dollar words.

I’m citing the fact that this thread is unnecessary, and I am muting it. Goodbye.
 
I am not making that argument. I am giving examples of unhelpful lines of argument in defense of of the clergy that do not make sense. These all have the common theme of saying that somehow God chose this person and we all need to fall in line.
 
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Just try to remember Aspid, you wont win with your line of reasoning, you have too many people here who would rather show you in what aspect that you are wrong than to actually consider anything else. because the aspect of this forum is to " educate " and " be an apologetic ".
 
I don’t find “equivalence,” or “precedence,” to be three dollar words, and I am sorry if they somehow offend you. Granted, I was defending myself against your claim that I was putting the average person who criticizes the clergy at the level of Dante, when in your view he or she (implicitly me) is a “nobody,” so, I don’t feel too bad, but I think your username is legitimately clever, so, I do respect that.

I also see your claim that some people spend too much time criticizing clergy over trivial matters. That is not what I am doing, however.
 
Ah, see! This is exactly my point. No, it isn’t true. It isn’t true that God chose Alexander VI. Politics chose Alexander VI. Human beings chose him. God permits us to get bad leaders. And we can criticize them.

And we aren’t less Catholic for doing so.

[an addendum, they still have authority to do those things that their position has authority to do in canon law, and more importantly they have the charismatic office, so they have those charisms, but they are still subject to scrutiny]
 
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Psalm 2 Why do the nations conspire,and the peoples plot in vain?2 The kings of the earth set themselves,and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and his anointed, saying,
3 “Let us burst their bonds asunder, and cast their cords from us.”4 He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord has them in derision.

Psalm 105:15 saying, “Do not touch my anointed ones; do my prophets no harm.”

Romans 2:Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 You say,[a] “We know that God’s judgment on those who do such things is in accordance with truth.” 3 Do you imagine, whoever you are, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not realize that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will repay according to each one’s deeds: 7 to those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 while for those who are self-seeking and who obey not the truth but wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be anguish and distress for everyone who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Remember Jesus himself started the Catholic Church in Matthew 16:16-18 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If the Popes or other Catholic clergymen sin or make mistakes its for GOD to judge ,we as, laymen can pray and do penance or write a letter addressing, your concern.you should remain faithful to the Catholic Church which Jesus established which will never fail or end, and not go to other, man made church.

Jeremiah 3:15 I will give you shepherds after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.Psalm 12:6 The promises of the Lord are promises that are pure, silver refined in a furnace on the ground,purified seven times.
 
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Okay, everyone who said there are not people out there saying you can’t criticize the clergy, see that. I was right. They are here, on this forum, on this thread.
 
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It is for God to judge and the civil law to punish the guilty,who asked you to take things in your hands


When I first read St. Catherine of Siena’s The Dialogue several years ago, its contents impressed me in many ways. One message, though, etched itself on my memory more firmly than the others. To this day, when I think of this book, it is this message that I remember most: “The sins of the clergy should not lessen your reverence for them.” (Dialogue 116)

Like many Catholics, I have had wonderful encounters with saintly priests and tense encounters with their opposites. I have been tempted to share my stories of injustice, hoping for sympathy and understanding from listeners who know how dreadful it is to be slighted by a priest. Reading The Dialogue helped me to realize how important it is to pause in these times of temptation and resist any impulse to speak badly of a priest.

St. Catherine lived during a tumultuous time in the Church, when many priests were leading immoral lives and causing scandal for their flocks (although many holy priests lived during that time, too). She wrote The Dialogue in the fourteenth century, after having a profound mystical experience. In the book, a soul (St. Catherine) has a conversation with God and asks Him several questions, which He answers in great depth. One of St. Catherine’s requests is that God would reveal to her the sins of the clergy, so that she might intensify her “sorrow and compassion and restless longing for their salvation.” (108)
 
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