Criticizing clergymen, our seminary system, a pope, etc

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Without criticising anyone everyone would be a narcissistic person that think that he or she is correct and infallible.

But sometimes the criticism is too over-whelming that people keep on complaining about tiny things. You won’t really achieve anything if you keep on complaining now would you? Bear in mind that your rants are very useless if you complain about simple thing like a woman complaining to his husband about the tiniest of things.

It isn’t wrong to criticise but make sure and research it before you criticise use the Scientific Method if you have too! But please be kind and gentle about it put yourself in his or her shoes… ironic that I say that I sometimes don’t even think I just open my mouth but through the years I’ve learnt from my parents and grandparents to think before one speak.
 
You know, this is the really comical thing about CAF. You post asking why people think something, and you get nothing but, “That’s a straw man! No one thinks that!” and then in under an hour some one always comes who believes exactly the thing that the original posters were saying wasn’t a thing people thought.
 
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You only have to believe infallible pronouncements and the Magisterium. You don’t have to believe or agree with every single thing hey say or do, despite the people here who claim for whatever reason you can’t ever criticize them. For example, I ignore all the talk about immigration and climate change that we are bombarded with from the USCCB and there’s nothing wrong with that. Also, I would like to add that it’s not too far to call a clergyman a heretic. If a person has made them self a heretic, they are a heretic and you are merely recognizing that fact. Is anybody seriously going to tell me that if a Pope or Bishop said “Hey everybody, Jesus is not the Son of God, he was just a man and a great Prophet, therefore there is no Trinity” that I should not call said hypothetical Pope or Bishop a heretic? Has not the hypothetical Pope or Bishop made himself a heretic by uttering such a statement and am I not merely recognizing that fact when calling him a heretic? When a member of the clergy goes against the Magisterium, they, like any Catholic, are worthy of criticism.
 
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sorry you came here with a wrong intention and attitude .your trying to push you negative opinion on others. respectfulness asking, are you a protestant? .if you have concerns do discuss in a proper vein but not with a sarcasm.
 
So, I would refrain from referring to people as heretics because that feels like it’s just name-calling.

Your hypothetical is interesting, however. I suppose, imagine yourself as a layman living at the time of Arius or Nestorius. Would it be acceptable to argue their positons were heretical before the church councils condemning them as such - might it even be morally obligatory? And if so, what does that say to the position of people such as Francis.

Granted, I think there’s a big difference between, “that position is not orthodox,” and “You are a heretic.” I might say the former; I wouldn’t ever say the latter.
 
Sorry Francis, my immediate reaction to your comment was to point out that your position exists to a string of people who were all denying it did. I should have engaged with you first.

I have read your assertions, but what exactly is your argument?
 
Haha, there are those who would say it about other popes but not Pope Francis, haha. Fortunately, I am not one of them.
 
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We have to discern,if anyone is wrong,here you mentioned the clergy,your partly right in the past centuries there where tainted Popes,what your point? will you get anything by criticism.yes Pope Francis is a liberal and made many changes which is a grave concern.we have to pray for him much.

which even i don’t like,certain things he says or does.i try my best not to judge or to criticize anyone for that matter.but i agree at times i fail many times because of my weakness or lack of self-control to keep my tongue in check. we do have the sacrament of confession for that.we are all called to practice our Christian faith don’t we.

From my childhood i have seen many families where destroyed by GOD, because of criticisms of priest and nuns. their whole family where wiped away.in a mysterious deaths.i never dare to do it.
 
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So, your position seems to be that criticism gets no results, so why do it? I don’t think it gets no results, but it is nice to hear your argument.

And there is some truth to it, in the sense that, we probably shouldn’t criticize if it won’t get us anything.
 
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the Faithful can always write to the Bishop and even the pope.I remember my own father was very good at writing articles in the media.and he always raised his concerns to the Bishop in many letters,and but with utmost respect and reverence,the Bishop really agreed on many a occasions.he did it with prayer and very politely.

Ephesians 6:10-14 For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

we fail to realize who the real enemy is.1 Peter 5:8 Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

2 Corinthians 10:3 Indeed, we live as human beings, but we do not wage war according to human standards; 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments 5 and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.

i know your Agnostic, but exploring ,so i take the liberty to quote from Scriptures sorry for that.
 
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Aspidistraflyer said:
So, many members on this forum give the impression that criticizing a pope, or bishops, or a system in the church, is inherently sinful or bad or something.
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I was brought up to respect the Holy Father , my bishop and priests .

I see no reason to change what I was rightly taught .

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. " ( St Ignatius of Antioch )
 
I return again and again to a comment Pope Benedict XVI made in the foreword to his first volume in the “Jesus of Nazareth” series. He makes the point that this book is not an exercise of the Magisterium. Thus he says:
Everyone is free, then, to contradict me. I only ask my readers for that initial goodwill without which there can be no understanding.
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I have really taken these words to heart for all my dealings with people (both online and in person). It is okay to disagree with and criticize people (even the pope at times). However, we must presume good will (initially, which means we presume good will until the contrary is proven).

I see so many people who are normally so critical of the mass media who only too readily buy hook, line, and sinker into any alleged insinuations that Pope Francis said something contrary to the faith.

We may not agree with everything he says, or the way that he says it. We may wish that he talked about these things rather than those things. But it really needs to come from the perspective that the pope is not out to take down the Catholic Church from the inside. He is not a heretic who wants to undermine Catholic morality in order to bring into the Church a bunch of unrepentant sinners while simultaneously pushing out every Catholic who actually believes and practices what the Church teaches.

I have my own criticisms of Pope Francis. I also have criticisms of Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II. I also have criticisms of most CAF posters and pretty much anyone I meet. 🙂 And I’m sure others have plenty of criticisms of me. Popes are human and not above making mistakes—even if the charism of infallibility prevents them from formally teaching error with regards to faith and morals.

But I try to spend a lot more time encouraging and defending rather than criticizing. For one, there are far fewer occasions where my criticizing would do anyone any good. Second, I presume the pope is doing his best and I see a lot more good than bad. So it wouldn’t even be fair or accurate for me to spend more time criticizing than encouraging. Thus I don’t generally dwell on the criticisms.

Honestly, anyone watching me do my job or being a husband and father would have plenty to criticize, too. But I would hope that people would presume I am trying my best and would try to encourage me rather than solely focusing on everything I bungle up.

So, yes, criticism is not “off limits” for Catholics. But how we go about it matters. And most of the criticism I see on CAF of the pope and clergy does not go about it the right way.
 
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Items posted under Catholic News or even World News might include news wherein one prominent Catholic Cardinal is in disagreement with another prominent Cardinal or Bishop. It may include news wherein some members of a Vatican dicastery or another Bishop is in disagreement with some German bishops. Should CAF members be discouraged from commenting on this news or taking a position on the subject of disagreement providing it is done with good will? Does the fact that there is controversy mean that we cannot comment? There are certainly heated discussions in Liturgy and Sacraments about more minor Church related matters.
 
JimG said:
Should CAF members be discouraged from commenting on this news or taking a position on the subject of disagreement providing it is done with good will?
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Not when it’s done with good will, of course not.
 
Aspidistraflyer said:
There is little that is more Catholic than criticizing the pope, or clergy, or Catholic institutions. We’ve been doing it 2000 years. Why do we have to stop now?
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You know you’re allowed to criticize the Church or clergy. But it should be done charitably, assuming the best intentions on the part of those you criticize, unless you have good reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt.

It seems like you already know this. So, maybe your beef is specifically with CAF users. That would not surprise me, CAF is not at all representative of the general population of Catholic laity. It’s more like a slice of the general population of a Catholic lunatic asylum… if there was such a thing. :crazy_face:
 
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My issue is that I feel guilty criticizing the church or any clergy, since it was founded by Christ.
 
When speaking of others or the church in general we are instructed how to avoid slander, gossip, calumny and detraction.
  1. Is it true (not a perception or personal opinion)
  2. Is it kind (or intent)
  3. Is it necessary
Life and death proceeds from the tongue, and you know, we get to eat the fruit of our words.

So that’s a question of ask yourself when critiquing. Big picture is that we are to lead others to Christ and His church.

God Bless you.🌸
 
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Aspidistraflyer said:
Okay, everyone who said there are not people out there saying you can’t criticize the clergy, see that. I was right. They are here, on this forum, on this thread.
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We can criticise/disagree but not with malice or having agendas. Luther did and it split the Church.
 
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