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newbie1234
Guest
I would bow to a queen or king in their country.
But whatever Cornelius was doing and for whatever reason, Peter said don’t do it. So why would it be acceptable now to kneel at his statue?
- Status
But whatever Cornelius was doing and for whatever reason, Peter said don’t do it. So why would it be acceptable now to kneel at his statue?
T
tptram
Guest
I love the crucifix.
God knows that man is a sensual being.
We need to see, hear, touch, smell, taste to understand.
The crucifix is a seeing aid for me to BEGIN to understand.
When St Paul said “look to Him”, I need to look to the crucifix to remind me the Ultimate Love “lay down his life for the beloved”.
Until I can “see” Jesus with my heart and my soul, I have to make do with the physical crucifix.
BTW, I don’t throw any picture of any one that I love to the trash.
Tak
God knows that man is a sensual being.
We need to see, hear, touch, smell, taste to understand.
The crucifix is a seeing aid for me to BEGIN to understand.
When St Paul said “look to Him”, I need to look to the crucifix to remind me the Ultimate Love “lay down his life for the beloved”.
Until I can “see” Jesus with my heart and my soul, I have to make do with the physical crucifix.
BTW, I don’t throw any picture of any one that I love to the trash.
Tak
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LilyM
Guest
It ISN’T the gesture of kneeling that Peter was protesting against. It’s the fact that Cornelius worshipped him as a divinity. He didn’t want Cornelius kneeling to him because he knew Cornelius was kneeling for the wrong reason, not just because he was kneeling.
Worship is NOT defined by the physical gesture that accompanies it. Not at all. Intent (WHY it’s being done) is incredibly important because there are MANY instances in the Bible (Jacob bowing in front of Esau being one) where bowing occurs and is completely FINE!!!
I can stand in front of the Eucharist at Mass (in fact I do) and worship it without making a single move to bow, kneel or do anything else. Because I AM at that time praying to Christ who I believe is God incarnate and physically present in the Eucharist. THAT is what worship is. It is entirely defined by the mental attitude and has nothing to do with any physical gesture.
On the other hand a man can kneel to propose marriage to his girlfriend (as I said before) and it doesn’t constitute worship of her, does it?
Note carefully the following comprehensive dictionary definition of worship:
wor·ship /ˈwɜrʃɪp/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wur-ship] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -shiped, -ship·ing or (especially British) -shipped, -ship·ping.
–noun 1. reverent honor and homage paid to God or a sacred personage, or to any object regarded as sacred.
2. formal or ceremonious rendering of such honor and homage: They attended worship this morning.
3. adoring reverence or regard: excessive worship of business success.
4. the object of adoring reverence or regard.
5. (initial capital letter) British. a title of honor used in addressing or mentioning certain magistrates and others of high rank or station (usually prec. by Your, His, or Her).
–verb (used with object) 6. to render religious reverence and homage to.
7. to feel an adoring reverence or regard for (any person or thing).
–verb (used without object) 8. to render religious reverence and homage, as to a deity.
9. to attend services of divine worship.
10. to feel an adoring reverence or regard.
I ask you, is there ANY mention there of bowing or kneeling? No. Why not? because it’s the INTENT or mental attitude that defines worship, not the gesture of bowing or kneeling.
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newbie1234
Guest
So what does it mean in ex20:5 You shall not bow to any carved image.How do you explain this away. The words are clear are they not?
Please don’t say it doesn’t apply in the church because you are only asking for intercession.
Please read Exodus 20:5 and explain how it is not against God’s will to kneel before any statue of Mary or any saint.
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
And the Ten Commandments God Gave to Moses still stand with the Gospel?
The first commandment God gives to Moses He forbids man to make images. (according to you, Baraq.)
God orders Moses to make a bronze serpent image.
:ehh:
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I_Leatherman
Guest
Why not hang up a painting of yourself in your own church?
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patrick457
Guest
The very first probable depiction of the Crucifixion with Christ in it is said to be the Alexamenos Graffiti, which was drawn by someone in the 2nd Century who is probably mocking Alexamenos, who is presumably a Christian. Alexamenos was drawn in the act of worship (upraised arm) to an image of a crucified figure with the head of a donkey (a common misconception and taunt by Romans to Jews and Christians is that they actually worship a donkey as a god), accompanied by the inscription ‘Alexamenos sebete Theon’ (Alexamenos worships his God).
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Hope this helps…
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LilyM
Guest
Yes, they are images and not to be confused with the persons they represent. At the same time the way you treat the picture DOES reflect at least a bit the respect in which you hold the person.
Ronnie Reagan or Carter I don’t really esteem or care about at all, so I would be fine to throw their pictures in the trash.
My mother on the other hand - not only would I not feel entirely OK with throwing away a picture of her (not unless it was seriously damaged or so out of focus as to be useless), but she would probably not be too happy if she came to my home and saw a picture of herself in the trashcan as well.
I imagine if you went to your parents house and found a picture of yourself in their trash you also wouldn’t like to see it there.
C
catholicdad01
Guest
WOW!!!
And here I thought this was a fairly innocent question. I had no idea that it would cause this much controversy.
To those that actually gave me a way to answer the original question, I thank you very much, it has given me a way to explain this to my friend.
God Bless!!
And here I thought this was a fairly innocent question. I had no idea that it would cause this much controversy.
To those that actually gave me a way to answer the original question, I thank you very much, it has given me a way to explain this to my friend.
God Bless!!
W
water
Guest
The answers are simple but good. Thanks.
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Mickey
Guest
**IS BOWING TO SOMETHING WORSHIP? **
As we noted in the Eastern cultures it is common for people to bow to one another as a sign of humility and respect. The Roman culture practiced social bowing too. You’d bow to the ground (prostrate) upon meeting a king or governor.
But once again, we must let SCRIPTURE tell us the meaning of bowing. The Septuagint version of Genesis and noted the following instances of “proskunew” (bow down).
23:7, 12 “And Abraham stood up, and bowed himself to the people of the land, even to the children of Heth… And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.”
27:29 “Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee”
33:3 “And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.”
37:7, 9, 10 “Behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.”
42:6 “and Joseph’s brethren came, and bowed down themselves before him with their faces to the earth.”
43:26, 28 “And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.”
47:31 (quoted in the NT, Hebrews 11:21) “And Israel worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.”
48:12 “And Joseph brought them out from between his knees, and he bowed himself with his face to the earth.”
49:8 “thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.”
In Esther 3:2-4, Mordecai refuses to bow before Haman since the latter is demanding this as latria (worship). But in Est 8:3, Mordecai’s own niece, Esther, bows before King Ahasuerus, which is simply an instance of her rendering him the honor (proskunew) he is due as royalty.
What’s significant about these passages is they demonstrate a form of veneration that is NOT worship. This is the OT basis for the fundamental distinction that St John of Damascus makes between worship (latreia) and veneration (proskunew).
(continued)
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Mickey
Guest
**BOWING BEFORE OBJECTS AND THINGS OF GOD **
One might grant that it is OK to bow before a “live human being”, but what about before inanimate objects? What do the Scriptures say about that?
“Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.” (Ezra 10:1)
“And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.” (Joshua 7:6)
The Scriptures did command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: “bow before the footstool of His feet…” We should note first of all that the word for “bow” here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5, when we are told to not bow to idols. And what is the “footstool of His feet”? In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who “dwells between the Cherubim” (99:1), and it ends with a call to “bow to His holy hill”–which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant. This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement “We will go into His tabernacles…” and is followed by the statement “Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength.” This phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church where as Orthodox Christians we will bow before the Cross, and the connection is not accidental–because on the Ark, between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat, upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15).
Other Biblical references to bowing, images, and worship are found in many places.
1 Kgs 8:54 and 2 Chr. 6:13b, Solomon kneels in prayer in the temple, which as we noted was full of images of bulls, cherubim, things on earth and heaven. Ezekiel 43:3b-4 depicts the prophet’s prostrating himself in a temple that chapters 40-41 have described as being carved from floor to ceiling with images of cherubim. Other Biblical instances of people genuflecting in presumably image-laden houses of worship include 1 Chr. 29:20, in which the people bow before God and the king ! 2 Chr. 20:18, in which Jehoshaphat and all of Judah and Jerusalem fall on their faces in worship; 2 Chr. 29:28-30, in which the king and the assembly prostrate themselves thrice before the altar (Orthodox priests also bow thrice before the altar at one point during the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom); 2 Chr 32:12, in which Hezekiah instructs the populace of Judah and Jerusalem to prostrate itself before one altar only; and Ezra 10:1, in which Ezra is prostrate in front of the temple in tearful prayer.
In 1 Sm 5:3-4 God causes a statue of the Philistine god Dagon to fall on its face before the Ark of the Covenant, which was covered with carvings of Cherubim. This is an instance of a false image bowing to a true one.
So we see that Scripture teaches clearly that the Orthodox practices toward icons is NOT
idolatry, anathema or heresy. Bowing and kissing are firmly Biblical, rooted in Jewish piety and continued within the piety of the Church from the beginning. It is a modern innovation that these practices have been dropped from the life of the Christian. It would do us well to recover the spiritual practices of the Prophets, Apostles and Christ Himself.
ourlifeinchrist.com/Program%20Notes/icons5_110704.htm
One might grant that it is OK to bow before a “live human being”, but what about before inanimate objects? What do the Scriptures say about that?
“Now when Ezra had prayed, and when he had confessed, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there assembled unto him out of Israel a very great congregation of men and women and children: for the people wept very sore.” (Ezra 10:1)
“And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the Ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.” (Joshua 7:6)
The Scriptures did command the Israelites to bow before the Ark, which had two prominent images of cherubim on it. In Psalms 99:5, it commands: “bow before the footstool of His feet…” We should note first of all that the word for “bow” here, is the same word used in Exodus 20:5, when we are told to not bow to idols. And what is the “footstool of His feet”? In 1st Chronicles 28:2, David uses this phrase in reference to the Ark of the Covenant. In Psalm 99 [98 in the Septuagint], it begins by speaking of the Lord who “dwells between the Cherubim” (99:1), and it ends with a call to “bow to His holy hill”–which makes it even clearer that in context, this is speaking of the Ark of the Covenant. This phrase occurs again in Psalm 132:7, where it is preceded by the statement “We will go into His tabernacles…” and is followed by the statement “Arise, O Lord, into Thy rest; Thou and the Ark of Thy strength.” This phrase is applied to the Cross in the services of the Church where as Orthodox Christians we will bow before the Cross, and the connection is not accidental–because on the Ark, between the Cherubim was the Mercy Seat, upon which the sacrificial blood was sprinkled for the sins of the people (Exodus 25:22, Leviticus 16:15).
Other Biblical references to bowing, images, and worship are found in many places.
1 Kgs 8:54 and 2 Chr. 6:13b, Solomon kneels in prayer in the temple, which as we noted was full of images of bulls, cherubim, things on earth and heaven. Ezekiel 43:3b-4 depicts the prophet’s prostrating himself in a temple that chapters 40-41 have described as being carved from floor to ceiling with images of cherubim. Other Biblical instances of people genuflecting in presumably image-laden houses of worship include 1 Chr. 29:20, in which the people bow before God and the king ! 2 Chr. 20:18, in which Jehoshaphat and all of Judah and Jerusalem fall on their faces in worship; 2 Chr. 29:28-30, in which the king and the assembly prostrate themselves thrice before the altar (Orthodox priests also bow thrice before the altar at one point during the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom); 2 Chr 32:12, in which Hezekiah instructs the populace of Judah and Jerusalem to prostrate itself before one altar only; and Ezra 10:1, in which Ezra is prostrate in front of the temple in tearful prayer.
In 1 Sm 5:3-4 God causes a statue of the Philistine god Dagon to fall on its face before the Ark of the Covenant, which was covered with carvings of Cherubim. This is an instance of a false image bowing to a true one.
So we see that Scripture teaches clearly that the Orthodox practices toward icons is NOT
idolatry, anathema or heresy. Bowing and kissing are firmly Biblical, rooted in Jewish piety and continued within the piety of the Church from the beginning. It is a modern innovation that these practices have been dropped from the life of the Christian. It would do us well to recover the spiritual practices of the Prophets, Apostles and Christ Himself.
ourlifeinchrist.com/Program%20Notes/icons5_110704.htm
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VociMike
Guest
But you are disregarding Ex 20:4:
*You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; *
Why not take that as literally as you are suggesting that we take 20:5? Why is bowing in reverence not OK, but making likenesses of things on earth just dandy? I mean, you do have money in your pocket with likenesses on it, right?
No, Peter would not allow Cornelius to worship him.
25: When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
Clearly it is not the act of falling down at his feet alone that is the problem, but falling down at his feet with the intention of worshiping.
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noma
Guest
An orthodox take, at least on the face of it.Nomafrom the Belgic Confession)
Of the union and distinction of the two Natures in the person of Christ… [stuff]
But one that necessarily would hold that, as Christ’s divinity cannot be divided, even as mind and body may be, even as pure concept, we must hold that the body of Jesus Christ is the body of God just as much as it is a human body. God took flesh onto Himself, not flesh around His true being.
As such, any image of Christ is an image of God, and not of a creature. Romans does not apply to this.
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Godfollower
Guest
I think this is just a translation problem. The Douay-Rheims Bible has the following text for Exodus 20:4-5:
It’s the King James Version (a Protestant Bible) that uses the language “bow down:”
So we can’t really resolve this particular issue until we know what the Bible said in the original Hebrew. I don’t know the original word, but – until I hear from an Hebrew scholar to the contrary – I think it is clear that the problem is worshiping, not the physical act of bowing per se. After all, we could clearly use “bow down” in a metaphorical sense of “adore” – and this text in context clearly is concerned with giving the adoration owed to God to someone (or something) else instead.
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VociMike
Guest
More on bowing down. In Isaiah we read:
Thus says the LORD: "The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabe’ans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours, they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying: `God is with you only, and there is no other, no god besides him.
…
Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.
…
The sons of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you; and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Here God is telling Israel that others shall bow down to her, and it is by God’s own will that they will bow down. If this doesn’t make it clear that bowing down per se is not against the will of God, I don’t know what else to say.
Thus says the LORD: "The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabe’ans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours, they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying: `God is with you only, and there is no other, no god besides him.
…
Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.
…
The sons of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you; and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.
Here God is telling Israel that others shall bow down to her, and it is by God’s own will that they will bow down. If this doesn’t make it clear that bowing down per se is not against the will of God, I don’t know what else to say.
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Baraq
Guest
godfollower- The Hebrew word is Shachah in the original, it means to bow down. The same word is used in Lev 26:1
'Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. ’
for those that say they really arent bowing to the Crucifix, they must have never seen the ‘holy’ Scapular of St Dominic
leatherman- please refrain from accusing God of breaking the law, or using his creation as validation of idol worship
oh and by the way- for whomever brought up worshipping the host of heaven, ever see the Oblesik in the middle of St Peters? Talk about returning to Egypt
'Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. ’
for those that say they really arent bowing to the Crucifix, they must have never seen the ‘holy’ Scapular of St Dominic
leatherman- please refrain from accusing God of breaking the law, or using his creation as validation of idol worship
oh and by the way- for whomever brought up worshipping the host of heaven, ever see the Oblesik in the middle of St Peters? Talk about returning to Egypt
B
Baraq
Guest
Catholic Dad, I dont know which group you place me in, but my original intent was to answer your initial question. Surprisingly none of the RCC members gave the best justification for having a Crucifix in your Church
The correct answer is that the RCC approves of it with their authority. As an RCC member youre under the guidance of your Church, they feel they have the keys and they dont mind using them. We in the Reformed Church use Scripture as our authority, thus the conflict.
The correct answer is that the RCC approves of it with their authority. As an RCC member youre under the guidance of your Church, they feel they have the keys and they dont mind using them. We in the Reformed Church use Scripture as our authority, thus the conflict.
S
steveandersen
Guest
and…ahem…just where did you get those Scriptures from?
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Mickey
Guest
Wrong. Many memebers of the Catholic Church gave wonderful and correct answers. Without the passion, there is no resurrection.
Catholics,Orthodox, and some protestants recognize Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. You have thrown out the latter–thus the conflict.
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