Crucifix

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Baraq said:
Max- I recently watched a show on ETWN w/Scott Hahn, enjoyed it(as Hahn was Reformed but now a Dominican Prof) He tried to defend the unfolding mass with scripture , but failed. He must return to the Church Fathers and what the Holy See feels they meant.
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never saw that. I’m sure you’ll be able to explain his failures in another thread?
Baraq said:
Anyways…As for all those images on our money, looks like those bankers and freemasons can teach your mystics a thing or two.
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So you’re saying your OK with those graven images? You’re not sending them my way?😉

But in the big picture, I’m just wondering why this is so important to you that you would come onto a Catholic forum and criticize an age-old Catholic belief. Are you trying to “save” or are you trying to agitate? The very fact that I ask the question shows that I (and everyone here) give you the benefit of the doubt. What’s your aim, here? To make me doubt what I believe?

You call it an innocent faith. I find that flattering since I think that was the childlike faith Christ was talking about. But by no stretch of the imagination is the church full of innocent people. Think about Augustine…he’s not the only one with a very worldy wild life. We didn’t just fall of the turnip truck.

And does that imply your church has lost its innocence?
 
Mickey- guess you missed the post where I said I loved Roman Catholics, its hard to kick against the pricks

Max- I never came here to argue this issue, I found the forum when I was researching Melkite liturgy. Ive found posters in the Eastern Christianity threads invaluable, thus I never left. btw-The Lord has blessed with me tremendously, but God willing I wont bow to the images of Ceasar. Pray that I dont fall into that temptation
 
Baraq said:
but God willing I wont bow to the images of Ceasar. Pray that I dont fall into that temptation
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nah! there are some other things you should be worried than bowing down to this guy. 😃 Why worried?
 
Baraq said:
Max- I never came here to argue this issue, I found the forum when I was researching Melkite liturgy. Ive found posters in the Eastern Christianity threads invaluable, thus I never left. btw-The Lord has blessed with me tremendously, but God willing I wont bow to the images of Ceasar. Pray that I dont fall into that temptation
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Sounds good. Sure, I’ll throw in a prayer for you today.

This cross/crucifix major difference between Catholics and non-catholic Christians reminds me of when the “Passion of the Christ” came out. There was this tremendous outpouring from those non-Catholics (and even some Catholics I suppose) who had never *REALLY *thought about the pain and suffering Christ lived through for our sake.

In my case, having seen and meditated upon (not worshipped) crucifixes my entire life, and going through the stations of the cross, at least every Lent, I was amazed that some people were thinking of His sacrifice for the first time!

And, I know it was very violent and there was a lot of bad press about that, but really, what part of a “Roman Execution” did they expect to be nice?
 
After reading this thread I noticed no one pointed out this verse at all. It is one that I never heard as a Protestant along with the one that says “We preached Christ Crucified”.

Gal 2:20** I am crucified with Christ**: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Crucifix is the constant reminder to myself that I am also crucified with Christ.

And when I think the world is crapping all over me, I just look to the Crucifix and be reminded that I really have nothing to complain about in light of how Christ suffered for us.

An empty Cross does nothing to remind me of the Price PAID by Christ for all humanity.
 
max37 said:
Sounds good. Sure, I’ll throw in a prayer for you today.

This cross/crucifix major difference between Catholics and non-catholic Christians reminds me of when the “Passion of the Christ” came out. There was this tremendous outpouring from those non-Catholics (and even some Catholics I suppose) who had never *REALLY *thought about the pain and suffering Christ lived through for our sake.

In my case, having seen and meditated upon (not worshipped) crucifixes my entire life, and going through the stations of the cross, at least every Lent, I was amazed that some people were thinking of His sacrifice for the first time!

And, I know it was very violent and there was a lot of bad press about that, but really, what part of a “Roman Execution” did they expect to be nice?
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And if you take the description of Christ in Isaiah, we would also come to the conclusion that Mel’s movie was watered down somewhat.
 
newbie1234 said:
These passages are referring to people bowing to Israel because their God is Holy and Most powerful. Therefore God is getting the glory. While ex20:5 is talking about the people of Israel giving Gods glory to something else like an idol. Do you see the difference?
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And when we pray to (ask for intercession from) God’s saints, that also glorifies God. The key point, however, is that bowing before other than God is not prohibited in the bible. There is simply no denying this fact.
The act of kneeling is not a sin. So when you kneel to pick up a napkin it is not a sin against God. But when you kneel in front of a statue it is violation of ex20:5.
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Then why was it not a sin for those people to bow to the people of Israel? You just said that bowing before the people of Israel was giving glory to God! You are being totally inconsistent here.
 
VociMike said:
And when we pray to (ask for intercession from) God’s saints, that also glorifies God. The key point, however, is that bowing before other than God is not prohibited in the bible. There is simply no denying this fact.

Then why was it not a sin for those people to bow to the people of Israel? You just said that bowing before the people of Israel was giving glory to God! You are being totally inconsistent here.
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It is important to note that one reason God gave Moses the commandments was so that His people could be Holy and set apart. Gods people include the Nation of Israel AND anyone who believes in Jesus as the Christ.
The OT verses you quoted where non JEWS.so ex20:5 doesn’t apply to them.
But it does apply to you as a believer in Christ.
God wants your complete devotion to Him and Him alone.
When He sees you kneeling in front of a statue of St Francis and asking him for help, does God feel honored and glorified?
I know my conviction is not to kneel in front any statue of any man or woman or ask them for intercession because it takes away from MY complete devotion to God.
However your convictions are different from my convictions.
 
Max- In the Reformed view, the Movie of the Passion is idolatry too. Worse, the movie wasnt even taken strictly from the Gospels , but also from some Nuns(I dont remember if she was a Nun or what,) bad dream. Today, only a fraction of Protestants are actually faithful to Reformed Theology(even though they might call themselves ‘Reformed’)

Mickey- Why not ask the Sun not shine? or The Moon not to rule the night? or hold back the sea with a broom? Heaven and Earth shall pass away before God’s Word is not proclaimed throughout creation
 
Baraq said:
Max- In the Reformed view, the Movie of the Passion is idolatry too. Worse, the movie wasnt even taken strictly from the Gospels , but also from some Nuns(I dont remember if she was a Nun or what,) bad dream. Today, only a fraction of Protestants are actually faithful to Reformed Theology(even though they might call themselves ‘Reformed’)
QUOTE]
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You’ll have to excuse my ignorance on what is meant by “reformed”, but what you are describing sounds the same as Islam’s rules about no image or likeness of Mohammed.
Is this correct? Does every reformed person have to come come up with their own image of him in their mind?

And on a related note, how does one that is truly reformed meditate on the suffering and death of christ? He was truly God yes, but also truly human, he suffered, he bled, he was nailed to a cross and expired. Do you somehow think of that abstractly? Without imagining a human body?

And does a reformed person have to avoid over 1000 years worth of artistic masterpieces based upon Christ because they will be graven images? Can you look at the Pieta of Michelangelo and see the dead Christ and suffering mother? Or is that also against your beliefs?

BTW these questions are not trying to paint you into some corner. It really is foreign to me. Besides, I prayed for you at lunch, I can’t attack you now;)*
 
Baraq said:
Max- In the Reformed view, the Movie of the Passion is idolatry too. Worse, the movie wasnt even taken strictly from the Gospels…
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Wow if "The Passion was taken so badly from Scripture then I wonder what you critique of “The Nativity” will be like?
 
Godfollower said:
I think this is just a translation problem. The Douay-Rheims Bible has the following text for Exodus 20:4-5:

It’s the King James Version (a Protestant Bible) that uses the language “bow down:”

So we can’t really resolve this particular issue until we know what the Bible said in the original Hebrew. I don’t know the original word, but – until I hear from an Hebrew scholar to the contrary – I think it is clear that the problem is worshiping, not the physical act of bowing per se. After all, we could clearly use “bow down” in a metaphorical sense of “adore” – and this text in context clearly is concerned with giving the adoration owed to God to someone (or something) else instead.
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The latin Vulgate says “non adorabis” in Ex 20:5. The most likely reason for the differences is that the vulgate, as well as all other translations of the bible up to the “deformation” used the septuagint (greek OT) for its old testament canon, where Luther dropped it for the hebrew.

The hebrew could very well say “bow” and then so would protestant bibles. The vulgate and DRV both say “adore” so I’m willing to bet it says the same in the greek.

I don’t wanna start a debate on the bible, but just so everyone knows it was on Luther’s word that the septuagint was dropped. The septuagint was held as inspired for over 1500 years until Luther did away with it.

Maybe he didn’t like the bowing either lol.
 
Baraq said:
Yea, Im a cherry picker of verses, I only cut n paste what is important to me…why should you take heed from verses like these?

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
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Question for you. There are millions of Christians in the world right? They are taught as children to pray at night before sleeping right? Well, normally you see them kneeling before their beds while praying right? I mean you see that on TV and stuff…well, if that’s the case, could you say that they worship beds? I mean, they are kneeling in front of them right? You see someone praying under a tree…so they must worship trees right? That’s ridiculous and you know it. So think about it like this. When you see a Catholic kneeling in front of a crucifix or a statue or all the other things you protestants see as “graven images” they are praying to GOD, using the object as a REMINDER. You don’t worship your bed right, and we don’t worship the crucifix. Simple as that. God bless.

~Denae~
 
Denae said:
Question for you. There are millions of Christians in the world right? They are taught as children to pray at night before sleeping right? Well, normally you see them kneeling before their beds while praying right? I mean you see that on TV and stuff…well, if that’s the case, could you say that they worship beds? I mean, they are kneeling in front of them right? You see someone praying under a tree…so they must worship trees right? That’s ridiculous and you know it. So think about it like this. When you see a Catholic kneeling in front of a crucifix or a statue or all the other things you protestants see as “graven images” they are praying to GOD, using the object as a REMINDER. You don’t worship your bed right, and we don’t worship the crucifix. Simple as that. God bless.

~Denae~
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I’m going to go out on a limb here and say the little children are bowing down before God. I think they are just LEANING on the bed. I really don’t think they are saying prayers TO their mattresses. However when you kneel before a statue of Mary you ARE praying to her and asking her for help.
I think God wants us to ask Him and Him alone for help.
There is the rub.
 
newbie1234 said:
It is important to note that one reason God gave Moses the commandments was so that His people could be Holy and set apart. Gods people include the Nation of Israel AND anyone who believes in Jesus as the Christ.
The OT verses you quoted where non JEWS.so ex20:5 doesn’t apply to them.
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Now you’re just reaching for straws. So it’s not OK for the Israelites to bow down, but it is OK for others to bow down to them? Talk about your mixed messages! :eek:

And as you may know, there are also plenty of examples of Israelites bowing down without worshipping. Maybe I’ll post a few later.
God wants your complete devotion to Him and Him alone.
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What’s that?! God does not want me to be devoted to anybody else? Not my wife? Not my children? Not my parents? Not my friends? Not my fellow church members? Not His faithful saints in heaven? I am all astonishment!
When He sees you kneeling in front of a statue of St Francis and asking him for help, does God feel honored and glorified?
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Of course He does. God’s glory is man fully alive, and that includes us helping one another, and praying for one another. If God has honored the saints in heaven (as scripture says He has) how can we do less?
 
VociMike said:
Now you’re just reaching for straws. So it’s not OK for the Israelites to bow down, but it is OK for others to bow down to them? Talk about your mixed messages! :eek:

And as you may know, there are also plenty of examples of Israelites bowing down without worshipping. Maybe I’ll post a few later.

What’s that?! God does not want me to be devoted to anybody else? Not my wife? Not my children? Not my parents? Not my friends? Not my fellow church members? Not His faithful saints in heaven? I am all astonishment!

Of course He does. God’s glory is man fully alive, and that includes us helping one another, and praying for one another. If God has honored the saints in heaven (as scripture says He has) how can we do less?
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I believe ex20:5 is talking about bowing down to graven images.Those are INANIMATE objects. They aren’t real. They are statues. The commandment is saying don’t bow down to inanimate statues or graven images. It does not say don’t bow down to real people. Does that clear things up?
(Edited by Moderator)
 
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