Crucifix

[Church_Militant]

Do you know what was in the Ark of the Covenant that deserved praise?
Answer The Shekinah(sp) Glory

Can you provide a scripture passage that specifically says that? I don’t think so because there isn’t one.

What was in the Ark was the ten commandments tablets, Moses staff, and some other items.

Regardless, Israel bowed the knee before it and it had (by God’s own commandment!) the graven images of the two cherubim on it’s top.

 

[catholicdad01]

Cathdad- Did I not answer your question? or did you just not like my sincere answer?

Baraq,

I did not see an answer in your post.

I asked for a way to explain why the Body of our Lord remainded on the cross. You jumped into it being an idol or graven image, and being expressly forbidden by God. Which I believe has sparked the controversy in this thread.

While I respect the views that you hold, that in no way obligates me to adhere or agree with them. Which, in this instance, I don’t.

Your answer may very well have been sincere, but I did not see how to explain why in your initial response.

God Bless!!

 

[catholicdad01]

We in the Reformed Church see the Crucifix as idolatry, clear and simple. It is EXPRESSLY forbidden in the Law of God. The common crucifix is a man made image of god, who in a sinful attempt to make the viewer comfortable surprisingly often appears as a long haired white man but sometimes black, brown or even asian depending on the church attending.

Yes, we do preach Christ crucified, but we dont break the Law of God because this form of idolatry would make some feel more pious.
A faithful Church should not display one, adorned or not

Did you not learn in your Sunday School classes how Hezekiah had to brake into pieces an OT version of the risen Christ because it was being worshipped?

2 Kings 18:3 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.

2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.

To follow up:

Do see a way to explain my question in your answer here??

 

[noma]

We know from Scripture that the Word is inspired, but I dont believe all these conflicting Icons(which conflict not only amongst themselves but with Scripture itself) are inspired

I often note that the conflicts I see in things the Church has always taught as Holy are conflicts not within the things but within myself.

Constant conversion is necessary to attain Orthodoxy.

 

[Sixtus]

It is a solmen reminder to us the price paid for our sins.

Some see such a salutary reminder as sinful. I think they think that for us to meditate on the price Christ paid for our sins is idolatrous. Can’t quite see how.

Sometimes Christ is superimposed as the resurrected Christ, which is an image I rather like as it is an alternative to the Orthodox ‘empty tomb’.

 

[Ceil-1]

Satan hates the Crucifix as well. Possessed people go nuts in front of holy objects such as these, especially the Crucifix. St. Paul said the liars are those who deny Christ crucified.

Protestants shun the Crucifix because it represents suffering. They vehemently deny that suffering has merit of any kind or that we join in Christ’s suffering on the Cross. That is the message of satan. It is all he needs to do to render us worthless to God by taking away what would be gained by this knowledge. This is the reason I have embraced the faith and rejected the Protestant faith.

 

[Sixtus]

As for images, we consider images of the divine used in worship as forbidden.

If it is any consolation, us Catholics do too!

That is why we do NOT worship them:thumbsup:

They are to us what St Paul calls ‘preaching Christ crucified’, they are also a salutary reminder to us of the price of our sins.

 

[JoeyWarren]

True
The fact that you noticed this is awesome.
Now what are you going to do about it?

No, what are you going to do about it? You are the hyper literalist.

 

[MariaG]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say the little children are bowing down before God. I think they are just LEANING on the bed. I really don’t think they are saying prayers TO their mattresses. However when you kneel before a statue of Mary you ARE praying to her and asking her for help.
I think God wants us to ask Him and Him alone for help.
There is the rub.

Did you answer people on this one? Did I miss it? I saw something of a nonanswer but nothing that really addressed some of the specific points brought up by many here? Sorry if I missed it

I will say this however.
If you are using the word “praying to” Mary as in asking Mary in the same way I would ask you, then yes we are praying to Mary. But just as others have said, literally bowing down in front of something is not the meaning of the scripture that God is forbidding. It is bowing down AND worshipping.

However, if you choose to interpret this in so literal a manner instead of a literalist manner I cannot stop you, although I will choose to disagree with you and will continue to believe the Scripture supports the Catholic interpretation. I will assume however, you will never get down on your knees and ask someone to Marry you nor allow someone to do so to you since in the strictest sense you seem to have a problem kneeling down in front of anything.

But next statement seems to imply that you believe we are “praying to” Mary in the same manner one would pray to God?

 

[lak611]

I’m going to go out on a limb here and say the little children are bowing down before God. I think they are just LEANING on the bed. I really don’t think they are saying prayers TO their mattresses. However when you kneel before a statue of Mary you ARE praying to her and asking her for help.
I think God wants us to ask Him and Him alone for help.
There is the rub.

What if it’s not a statue of Mary? What if it’s a crucifix? I have one in my bedroom. I’m not praying to my mattress or to the crucifix. The crucifix reminds me of Who I am praying to, my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[newbie1234]

Can you provide a scripture passage that specifically says that? I don’t think so because there isn’t one.

What was in the Ark was the ten commandments tablets, Moses staff, and some other items.

Regardless, Israel bowed the knee before it and it had (by God’s own commandment!) the graven images of the two cherubim on it’s top.

Exodus 40:34-38

 

[newbie1234]

Did you answer people on this one? Did I miss it? I saw something of a nonanswer but nothing that really addressed some of the specific points brought up by many here? Sorry if I missed it

I will say this however.
If you are using the word “praying to” Mary as in asking Mary in the same way I would ask you, then yes we are praying to Mary. But just as others have said, literally bowing down in front of something is not the meaning of the scripture that God is forbidding. It is bowing down AND worshipping.

However, if you choose to interpret this in so literal a manner instead of a literalist manner I cannot stop you, although I will choose to disagree with you and will continue to believe the Scripture supports the Catholic interpretation. I will assume however, you will never get down on your knees and ask someone to Marry you nor allow someone to do so to you since in the strictest sense you seem to have a problem kneeling down in front of anything.

But next statement seems to imply that you believe we are “praying to” Mary in the same manner one would pray to God?

The bed reference was in response to post 137.
To me getting down on my knees would signify devotion.
I am devoted to God.
If I was going to propose marriage I would kneel.
However I would not kneel in front of a statue of Mary.

 

[JoeyWarren]

With the same mentality, one would have to refrain from the “Pledge of Allegience”…

 

[MariaG]

With the same mentality, one would have to refrain from the “Pledge of Allegience”…

One of the reasons JW’s refuse to say it.

 

[Church_Militant]

Exodus 40:34-38

So let’s have a look at that passage.

34: Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
35: And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.
36: Throughout all their journeys, whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the people of Israel would go onward;
37: but if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not go onward till the day that it was taken up.
38: For throughout all their journeys the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was in it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel.

This passage does not support your assertion newbie. Look at it. It says that the cloud of God’s glory filled the tabernacle not the Ark of the Covenant.

Got any other passages you want to offer?

 

[pulseczar87]

I am by no means Catholic (though I can’t say I’m wholly Protestant anymore either…), but whether the image of Christ is on the cross or not is logically irrelevant, and I’m not commenting on what one may deduce about the focus of either group on His suffering, sacrifice, victory of resurrection, etc…

They are mere symbols, both of which remind us of His suffering and sacrifice on our behalf to bridge the gap between imperfect, inept man and omniscient omnipotent eternal God, an issue on which I think it safe to say both sides agree. I have also heard the argument that we “worship the risen Christ,” and to believe that Catholicism differs in this regard is plain ignorance.

If the logic remains that the likeness of Christ on the cross is grounds for idolatry then how can one exclude worship of the cross vice His image as grounds for idolatry?

 

[newbie1234]

So let’s have a look at that passage.
This passage does not support your assertion newbie. Look at it. It says that the cloud of God’s glory filled the tabernacle not the Ark of the Covenant.

Got any other passages you want to offer?

Come on, the ark is in the Holy of Holies, That is where God is in the tabernacle numbers 9:15-23. Exodus 25:22. Basic OT . You should study the tabernacle. Especially the Lampstand. It represents The books of the bible. Fascinating.

 

[lak611]

I have also heard the argument that we “worship the risen Christ,” and to believe that Catholicism differs in this regard is plain ignorance.
/QUOTE]We Catholics know that He has risen. But before one can think of Easter, one must think of Good Friday. Without His sacrifice on the cross, where He gave His life for my sin, I would not be able to even comprehend His resurrection on Easter Sunday so that I could have new life. The crucifx reminds me of the suffering that He endured in my place in order that I may have eternal life.

 

[Church_Militant]

Come on, the ark is in the Holy of Holies, That is where God is in the tabernacle numbers 9:15-23. Exodus 25:22. Basic OT . You should study the tabernacle. Especially the Lampstand. It represents The books of the bible. Fascinating.

But it nowhere says that Shekinah is in the Ark, and there is nothing to support that assertion.

The tabernacle is the tent in which the Ark was kept, and the same was true even when the temple was built.

Again, let’s look at your cited passages:

Numbers 9:15-23

15: On the day that the tabernacle was set up, the cloud covered the tabernacle, the tent of the testimony; and at evening it was over the tabernacle like the appearance of fire until morning.
16: So it was continually; the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.
17: And whenever the cloud was taken up from over the tent, after that the people of Israel set out; and in the place where the cloud settled down, there the people of Israel encamped.
18: At the command of the LORD the people of Israel set out, and at the command of the LORD they encamped; as long as the cloud rested over the tabernacle, they remained in camp.
19: Even when the cloud continued over the tabernacle many days, the people of Israel kept the charge of the LORD, and did not set out.
20: Sometimes the cloud was a few days over the tabernacle, and according to the command of the LORD they remained in camp; then according to the command of the LORD they set out.
21: And sometimes the cloud remained from evening until morning; and when the cloud was taken up in the morning, they set out, or if it continued for a day and a night, when the cloud was taken up they set out.
22: Whether it was two days, or a month, or a longer time, that the cloud continued over the tabernacle, abiding there, the people of Israel remained in camp and did not set out; but when it was taken up they set out.
23: At the command of the LORD they encamped, and at the command of the LORD they set out; they kept the charge of the LORD, at the command of the LORD by Moses.And,

Exodus 25:22

22: There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel.I’m sorry but neither one of these passages says what you have asserted that they mean. that the Shekinah Glory of God was inside the Ark of the Covenant. It’s just not there and so I have to ask you again…do you have any other scripture that supports what you have asserted, because if not, I have to point out that you are espousing an unbiblical concept. I don’t know where you got that from so far, but it’s clearly someone’s interpretation, and not based upon what the Word of God actually says.

Does anyone else see his assertion supported by these passages, because I sure don’t?:ehh:

 

[Church_Militant]

I am by no means Catholic (though I can’t say I’m wholly Protestant anymore either…), but whether the image of Christ is on the cross or not is logically irrelevant, and I’m not commenting on what one may deduce about the focus of either group on His suffering, sacrifice, victory of resurrection, etc…

They are mere symbols, both of which remind us of His suffering and sacrifice on our behalf to bridge the gap between imperfect, inept man and omniscient omnipotent eternal God, an issue on which I think it safe to say both sides agree. I have also heard the argument that we “worship the risen Christ,” and to believe that Catholicism differs in this regard is plain ignorance.

If the logic remains that the likeness of Christ on the cross is grounds for idolatry then how can one exclude worship of the cross vice His image as grounds for idolatry?

Very well said sir!:clapping: