Crucifix

[noma]

Do you know what was in the Ark of the Covenant that deserved praise?
Answer The Shekinah(sp) Glory

It seems as though you have a very good point. When we look at how the Jews read these passages, we find great agreement.

That any form of worship, or admiration, or respect, even if it is considered to be different than the worship of God, was seen (according to every Rabbi in the Talmud) as wrong. Rambam and Ramban say: “People began to feel that by showing respect for the intermediaries through which God controls and acts in the universe, they were displaying reverence for Him, much as one honors a king or president by showing respect to his emissaries and enforcers…” And this is forbidden.

And with a more recent comment on this by a respected Orthodox Rabbi, the point was made that every Christian is an idolater, for they worship Jesus, which is some god of the flesh. He said that the whole idea of the incarnation is idolatry (“God has made himself an idol of flesh”), according to the Commandment.

If we are willing to put into question how the commandment applies to the incarnation, then we must question how the commandment applies to images of the incarnation (and, then, indeed, other images).

 

[newbie1234]

But it nowhere says that Shekinah is in the Ark, and there is nothing to support that assertion.

The tabernacle is the tent in which the Ark was kept, and the same was true even when the temple was built.

Again, let’s look at your cited passages:
And, I’m sorry but neither one of these passages says what you have asserted that they mean. that the Shekinah Glory of God was inside the Ark of the Covenant. It’s just not there and so I have to ask you again…do you have any other scripture that supports what you have asserted, because if not, I have to point out that you are espousing an unbiblical concept. I don’t know where you got that from so far, but it’s clearly someone’s interpretation, and not based upon what the Word of God actually says.

Does anyone else see his assertion supported by these passages, because I sure don’t?:ehh:

It is almost painful to converse with you.
The original point was the two cheribim on the ark.
The cheribim flank the mercy seat on TOP of the Ark of the Covenant and cover the seat with their wings.
God is above the mercy seat.
If I remember correctly you were saying the Jews bowed down to the cherubim on the ark. I said that was false. They bowed because that is were the shekinah glory was.
They are not bowing to the cherubim.
They are not worshipping the cherubim.
This is something that you should already know. This is basic.

 

[Church_Militant]

It seems as though you have a very good point. When we look at how the Jews read these passages, we find great agreement.

I disagree Noma.

I have already shown that his OT passages do not say what he wishes they did. Until someone can provide better scriptural proof than that, there is nothing to agree to.

The Jews consider all Christians blasphemers & idolaters because we follow Christ, believe in a triune God, and believe that Jesus was God in the flesh, but your agreeing with newbie is ill informed if you cannot see that his scripture citations do not in fact support what he says they do.

Again, I’m sorry and all, but it’s just simply not there.

 

[newbie1234]

But it nowhere says that Shekinah is in the Ark, and there is nothing to support that assertion.

The tabernacle is the tent in which the Ark was kept, and the same was true even when the temple was built.

Again, let’s look at your cited passages:
And, I’m sorry but neither one of these passages says what you have asserted that they mean. that the Shekinah Glory of God was inside the Ark of the Covenant. It’s just not there and so I have to ask you again…do you have any other scripture that supports what you have asserted, because if not, I have to point out that you are espousing an unbiblical concept. I don’t know where you got that from so far, but it’s clearly someone’s interpretation, and not based upon what the Word of God actually says.

Does anyone else see his assertion supported by these passages, because I sure don’t?:ehh:

You know you’re right Mr Militant I should have said ‘on the Ark’ instead of ‘in the Ark.’ You got me again!
You are quite the debater. I’m very impressed.
I think you are a perfect model for your faith!
I bet you lead a lot of people to Catholicism.
The Jewish people could also easily bow to the Word of God which was ‘in the Ark’.on the tablets.
They DEFINITELY weren’t bowing to the chrerebim.

 

[Church_Militant]

It is almost painful to converse with you.

Then perhaps you need to make yourself clear. None of us can read your mind Newbie…

The original point was the two cherubim on the ark.
The cherubim flank the mercy seat on TOP of the Ark of the Covenant and cover the seat with their wings.
God is above the mercy seat.

Correct.

If I remember correctly you were saying the Jews bowed down to the cherubim on the ark.

I never asserted any such thing.

I said that Israel bent the knee before the Ark and my point is that they did so with the Cherubim there atop it. (Placed there by God’s own command.)

I said that was false. They bowed because that is were the shekinah glory was.

You appeared to be asserting that the Shekinah was in the Ark and that is not the case. I have no problem with the fact that God’s glory was above the Ark, but that is not what you told me

They are not bowing to the cherubim.

Yet if you looked down on them when they were bowed down before the Ark…what would you see…and what would you likely think?

Yet…

They are not worshiping the cherubim.

You know that…and I know that, but a stranger looking on might very well allege just exactly what you have concerning my Catholic brothers and sisters and I.

If they would be wrong about the Israelites, then you would also be wrong concerning Catholics.

Which part of the zillion times we have stated, “We Catholics do not worship the statues, the images, the icons, or the angels and saints” , did you and the rest of the n-C world not get?

This is something that you should already know. This is basic.

Indeed it is. Why didn’t you get it sooner?

 

[Church_Militant]

You know you’re right Mr Militant I should have said ‘on the Ark’ instead of ‘in the Ark.’ You got me again!
You are quite the debater. I’m very impressed.
I think you are a perfect model for your faith!
I bet you lead a lot of people to Catholicism.
The Jewish people could also easily bow to the Word of God which was ‘in the Ark’.on the tablets.
They DEFINITELY weren’t bowing to the cherubim.

Hey when it comes to our most holy faith, I’m like a K-Mart radio…I don’t play.

I don’t know about all those other flowers you just handed me. All I know is that this is where the Holy Spirit has led me and I rejoice in the presence and power of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in my life.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[newbie1234]

Then perhaps you need to make yourself clear. None of us can read your mind Newbie… Correct.
I never asserted any such thing.

I said that Israel bent the knee before the Ark and my point is that they did so with the Cherubim there atop it. (Placed there by God’s own command.)You appeared to be asserting that the Shekinah was in the Ark and that is not the case. I have no problem with the fact that God’s glory was above the Ark, but that is not what you told me
Yet if you looked down on them when they were bowed down before the Ark…what would you see…and what would you likely think?

Yet…You know that…and I know that, but a stranger looking on might very well allege just exactly what you have concerning my Catholic brothers and sisters and I.

If they would be wrong about the Israelites, then you would also be wrong concerning Catholics.

Which part of the zillion times we have stated, “We Catholics do not worship the statues, the images, the icons, or the angels and saints” , did you and the rest of the n-C world not get?Indeed it is. Why didn’t you get it sooner?

Some of Your posts actually make me giggle?
A stranger looking down at the Jews bowing to the ark?
Nice attempt!
Although sometimes monotonous, I do enjoy reading your posts. The more ornery they are, the more I giggle.
I would suggest that if you want to impress me on your biblical knowledge, you have to use more chapter and verse.
I will admit it’s pretty easy to see who is biblically well versed and who is not by how they refer to scripture by chapter and verse.

 

[Church_Militant]

Some of Your posts actually make me giggle?
A stranger looking down at the Jews bowing to the ark?
Nice attempt!
Although sometimes monotonous, I do enjoy reading your posts. The more ornery they are, the more I giggle.
I would suggest that if you want to impress me on your biblical knowledge, you have to use more chapter and verse.
I will admit it’s pretty easy to see who is biblically well versed and who is not by how they refer to scripture by chapter and verse.

You…“giggle”? Your name wouldn’t be Janet (AKA Alfie and Jody 60) by any chance, is it?
I bet it is…

God-given common sense doesn’t need to cite biblical chapter and verse. It takes about the same common sense that it does to know that you look out for traffic when crossing the street. The simple logic is there and I am disinterested with your finding humor in it because the truth is that lurkers and honest people will see what I mean and you will continue to make unfounded remarks.

Is this how you fall back when you are refuted and cannot answer…or is it just too far past your bedtime tonight?

My Catholic brothers and sisters and I have supported our case with more than ample scripture and you have yet to refute it. I am still waiting for a substantive argument from you that I cannot refute.

I haven’t seen one so far. Maybe it’s time you reconsidered your beliefs and came home to the faith.

 

[Unitas]

The Jewish people could also easily bow to the Word of God which was ‘in the Ark’.on the tablets.

Funny thing; Jesus is the Word made flesh, and He, quite literally, resided inside Mary for quite some time.

That would make her the Ark of the New Covenant.

That’s quite a blessing from God.

Perhaps worthy of a show of respect…

See where I’m going?

 

[Sixtus]

LilyM

Re: Crucifix
Quote:Originally Posted by Baraq
Do Catholics know the difference between the Creator and a Creature?

We know that Jesus Christ IS God - that he chose to reveal himself in human form so that all might behold the face of God (Father and Son as he said ‘who sees me sees the Father’). And that God alone we worship. Not images or likenesses of him or of anything or anyone else.

If we thought any statue was God we would proudly say so, just as we proudly say that we believe that Eucharistic bread IS Christ.

You haven’t answered the question anyway - when people salute their coutry’s flag or I kiss (and yes, occasionally talk to) a picture of my deceased grandfather how is THAT not idolatry according to your logic??? How is that any different?

I would add that an acquaintance who condemns Catholics for having statutes, himself is a collector of porcelain. in particular likes to look at and marvel at some of his specimens. He simply adores them and why not? He has spent a lot of time, not to mention money collecting them

But isn’t that a double standard?

He says 'No, so long as his statues do not have a religious theme, he is ok. But he does have a piece of porcelain of a very elegant man holding a bible, but he says ‘that is not relgious’ isn’t this all getting a tad silly

 

[Odell]

Cathdad- Did I not answer your question? or did you just not like my sincere answer?

Max, Thank you for your prayers, I will keep you in mine today. As for images, we consider images of the divine used in worship as forbidden. Im not sure how this might compare to the Taliban, Ive read they are against images even in newsprint, TV magazines etc…
.

I have a question for you does your church or home have a manger scene in it during christmas? I bet you do. I always find it odd that those who preach this have statues during christmas. Where does it say in the bible you cant have statues except around christmas?

 

[Sixtus]

Godfollower posted

The definitions I’m finding of Shachah are broader than just “bow down” – they’re more like “bow, bow down, beseech, bow down in worship, prostrate before God, prostrate before idols,” etc. We would all agree that worshiping an object is forbidden, but my original comment still seems to stand: isn’t this passage aimed (however it’s translated) at worship as opposed to the physical act of bowing?

At the end of Mass, we servers process out and bow to the Processional Cross.

I am not worshipping it or adoring it. I am bowing to the supreme sacrifice made by Christ our God

 

[Sixtus]

When I am performing my employers business, I am required to go into court.

If a hearing is in session, it is protocol to bow to the Bench as a mark of respect for their authority.

That is EXACTLY THE SAME CRITERIA that I use when I bow to the Cross and the Tabernacle.

Should I tell my employers that I can no longer show my respect to the Judiciary and Law of England as the Protestants say it is idolatory?

If I do that, they will say 'so if the Protestants object, why do they also bow to the Bench when they walk into court after a session has started?

I would have to reply something in the veign of 'well I suppose because the Bench and English Law which they represent, are not Catholic.

This is getting awefully complicated. Can someone help me out please

 

[noma]

I disagree Noma.

[REASONS]

My sources come straight from the Talmud, the Tradition of the Jewish People, binding almost as much as the Traditions of the Catholic Church to their faith.

When I said “we find agreement” I meant that we (the readers) should find agreement between newbie and the average Orthodox Jewish scholar.

My purpose in writing this was to illustrate that newbie’s logical principles would lead to Judaism. To accept that the crucifix is an idol because it is a physical image of God, who is spiritual, is to deny that God is, was, or could be physical.

Newbie’s logic leads not to Christianity, but to modern Judaism.

 

[Psalm45_9]

Hey everyone, I just took down my idolatrous nativity scene the other day. I remember before Christmas, the local Baptist church had one in their front yard! How dare they make a graven image of our Lord!

 

[pulseczar87]

I guess what I was trying to say earlier is that if you claim that the image of Christ on the cross could possibly be idololized then it is just as possible for the unadorned cross to be idolized as well.

And although there haven’t been too many Baptists if they ever challenge genuflecting just remind them of their “bowing before the altar,” which we did a lot of growing up…

 

[JoeyWarren]

Let me point out that if you believe that the Crucifix is irrelevant, then you have by no choice to say that John 3:16 is irrelevant as well.

John 3:For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

**The Crucifix is **"For God so loved the the world,
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

Maybe some Protestants dislike the Crucifix because it puts the first part of John 3:16 up in their face visually. Maybe some don’t like this visual representation because it exposes their own pettiness and exposes their faith as a sham with no real substance?

I know I find myself sometimes losing faith because I feel that God is crapping all over me, but all I have to do is just look at the Crucifix and instantly I am overcome with the realization of my own pettiness and how sinful that pettiness is. The crucifx reminds me that any petty complaint I have about my life pales to non-existence in comparison to any complaint Jesus might have had before he was nailed…

Logically speaking? "To deny the portent of the Crucifix is to deny Christ’s death on the Cross with without we would all be truely lost.

As stated by others, you can’t get to he RISEN CHRIST without first accepting the CRUCIFIED CHRIST.

I am crucified with Christ just as Paul is.
I preach Christ crucified just as Paul did.

just as

I am ressurected with Christ.
I preach Christ resurrected.

You can’t be ressurected with Christ without first being crucified with Christ.

You can’t preach Christ Resurrected without first preaching Christ Crucified.

You just can’t…the cart can never pull the horse.

 

[Lukelion]

To me, the Crucifix is John 15 13 in art instead of words.
"No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. "

 

[JoeyWarren]

That too!

 

[Church_Militant]

My sources come straight from the Talmud, the Tradition of the Jewish People, binding almost as much as the Traditions of the Catholic Church to their faith.

When I said “we find agreement” I meant that we (the readers) should find agreement between newbie and the average Orthodox Jewish scholar.

My purpose

in writing this was to illustrate that newbie’s logical principles would lead to Judaism. To accept that the crucifix is an idol because it is a physical image of God, who is spiritual, is to deny that God is, was, or could be physical.

Newbie’s logic leads not to Christianity, but to modern Judaism.Ah, then I apologize. Perhaps I was getting tired and misunderstood your post.

Framed as you have explained it I would have to agree with you. Thank you for apparently seeing something that I somehow missed. [SIGN]OMG! CM made a misnake! Alert the media!
[/SIGN]
Pax tecum,