Crucifix

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Baraq said:
Militant,

yea, I see people kissing blocks of wood and stone all the time…its completely normal, no worship or adoration there{rolling eyes}
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I see people reverently removing their hats, putting their hands over their hearts, and talking to flags all the time. Is there worship and adoration there?
 
Baraq said:
Militant,

yea, I see people kissing blocks of wood and stone all the time…its completely normal, no worship or adoration there{rolling eyes}
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So if I kiss a photograph of my beloved wife I am adoring that image of her?

Thats completely fallacious reasoning.

If I kiss the feet of the corpus on my crucifix in humble gratitude for the sacrifice that my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ made for me, that means that I am adoring that piece of wood and plaster?

No thanks mister…you won’t find me in church with the likes of you.
 
water, israelites didnt know their idols were false gods.They thought they represented the God of Israel. This is very clear in the siege of Jerusalem (2 kings 18)
 
Baraq said:
water, israelites didnt know their idols were false gods.They thought they represented the God of Israel. This is very clear in the siege of Jerusalem (2 kings 18)
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And it has no relevance to this topic.

Another case of cherry picking and twisting a passage from the Word of God in order to make a case that is not there. :rolleyes:
 
huh? God is the Creator, he made men, foor footed beast and so on…Do Catholics know the difference between the Creator and a Creature?

Please dont try to use God’s creation as justification of your idolatry
 
Baraq said:
huh? God is the Creator, he made men, foor footed beast and so on…Do Catholics know the difference between the Creator and a Creature?

Please dont try to use God’s creation as justification of your idolatry
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if you asked the question, it shows that you know nothing about Catholic; and you have no concept of what idolatry is.
 
Prayer Warrior,
You want to use the Ark to justify your own idolatry?
Was God contradicting the law that Noah(Gen 9:6) gave when he asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?(who knows, maybe israelites used that as justification to pass their kids through the fire to Molech)
Does the Holy Ghost contradict himself when the Gospels dont exactly match up? Ever read the Gospels closely and compare the events?
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:rotfl: I am not justifying idolatry as it is forbidden by God and the Catholic Church. I was simply and clearly showing that God does not contradict Himself by commanding His people to do that which He has forbidden. I’m not sure if you noticed, but you didn’t respond to that point…just brought up a couple points completely unrelated to the topic. I say again, Catholics do not worship graven images of any kind. I do not believe, nor does any Catholic, that a crucifix is Jesus Christ or that the crucifix is Divine in any way, shape, or form. Bowing, in and of itself, is not worship, and those who think so have a lot to learn about what worship is. Worship comes from the heart, perhaps you should ponder that for a while.
 
Baraq said:
Do Catholics know the difference between the Creator and a Creature?
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We know that Jesus Christ IS God - that he chose to reveal himself in human form so that all might behold the face of God (Father and Son as he said ‘who sees me sees the Father’). And that God alone we worship. Not images or likenesses of him or of anything or anyone else.

If we thought any statue was God we would proudly say so, just as we proudly say that we believe that Eucharistic bread IS Christ.

You haven’t answered the question anyway - when people salute their coutry’s flag or I kiss (and yes, occasionally talk to) a picture of my deceased grandfather how is THAT not idolatry according to your logic??? How is that any different?
 
I too get a good laugh when I see someone use a Chick tract.

lily, if you think your grandfather or the falg is god…dont kiss em
 
Baraq said:
I too get a good laugh when I see someone use a Chick tract.

lily, if you think your grandfather or the falg is god…dont kiss em
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Well, neither do I think a crucifix or a statue of a saint is God. So what is your probem with them as opposed to flags or photographs? All are graven images, and all would appear, on your analysis, to be contrary to the commandment.
 
Baraq said:
huh? God is the Creator, he made men, foor footed beast and so on…Do Catholics know the difference between the Creator and a Creature?
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Do you know the difference? Which part of Christ is creature? Which part is Creator? Is his mind Creator and his body Creature?
 
Baraq said:
Steve, it isnt probably for this thread…but I will take this opportunity(since you asked) to give our position on the Sacrament of the Lords Supper(from the Belgic Confession)

Article 35: Of the Holy Supper of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We believe and confess, that our Savior Jesus Christ did ordain and institute the sacrament of the holy supper**, to nourish and support those whom he hath already regenerated,** and incorporated into his family, which is his Church. Now those, who are regenerated, have in them a two-fold life, the one corporal and temporal, which they have from the first birth, and is common to all men: the other spiritual and heavenly, which is given them in their second birth, which is effected by the word of the gospel, in the communion of the body of Christ; and this life is not common, but is peculiar to God’s elect. In like manner God hath given us, for the support of the bodily and earthly life, earthly and common bread, which is subservient thereto, and is common to all men, even as life itself. But for the support of the spiritual and heavenly life, which believers have, he hath sent a living bread, which descended from heaven, namely, Jesus Christ, who nourishes and strengthens the spiritual life of believers, when they eat him, that is to say, when they apply and receive him by faith in the spirit. Christ, that he might represent unto us this spiritual and heavenly bread, hath instituted an earthly and visible bread, as a sacrament of his body, and wine as a sacrament of his blood, to testify by them unto us, that, as certainly as we receive and hold this sacrament in our hands, and eat and drink the same with our mouths, by which our life is afterwards nourished, we also do as certainly receive by faith (which is the hand and mouth of our soul) the true body and blood of Christ our only Savior in our souls, for the support of our spiritual life. Now, as it is certain and beyond all doubt, that Jesus Christ hath not enjoined to us the use of his sacraments in vain, so he works in us all that he represents to us by these holy signs, though the manner surpasses our understanding, and cannot be comprehended by us, as the operations of the Holy Ghost are hidden and incomprehensible. In the meantime we err not, when we say, that what is eaten and drunk by us is the proper and natural body, and the proper blood of Christ. But the manner of our partaking of the same, is not by the mouth, but by the spirit through faith. Thus then, though Christ always sits at the right hand of his Father in the heavens, yet doth he not therefore cease to make us partakers of himself by faith. This feast is a spiritual table, at which Christ communicates himself with all his benefits to us, and gives us there to enjoy both himself, and the merits of his suffering and death, nourishing, strengthening and comforting our poor comfortless souls by the eating of his flesh, quickening and refreshing them by the drinking of his blood. Further, though the sacraments are connected with the thing signified, nevertheless both are not received by all men: the ungodly indeed receives the sacrament to his condemnation, but he doth not receive the truth of the sacrament. As Judas, and Simon the sorcerer, both indeed received the sacrament, but not Christ, who was signified by it, of whom believers only are made partakers. Lastly, we receive this holy sacrament in the assembly of the people of God, with humility and reverence, keeping up amongst us a holy remembrance of the death of Christ our Savior, with thanksgiving: making there confession of our faith, and of the Christian religion. Therefore no one ought to come to this table without having previously rightly examined himself; lest by eating of this bread and drinking of this cup, he eat and drink judgment to himself. In a word, we are excited by the use of this holy sacrament, to a fervent love towards God and our neighbor. Therefore we reject all mixtures and damnable inventions, which men have added unto, and blended with the sacraments, as profanations of them: and affirm that we ought to rest satisfied with the ordinance which Christ and his apostles have taught us, and that we must speak of them in the same manner as they have spoken.
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Simple questions: in the above highlighted passages EXCEPT for the last passage, please give the SCRIPTURAL references for these beliefs of your Reformed faith.

For the last passage, what EXACTLY are the “mixtures and damnable inventions” that is alluded to?

Thanks
 
Noma:(from the Belgic Confession)
Of the union and distinction of the two Natures in the person of Christ.
We believe that by this conception, the person of the Son is inseparably united and connected with the human nature; so that there are not two Sons of God, nor two persons, but two natures united in one single person: yet, that each nature retains its own distinct properties. As then the divine nature hath always remained uncreated, without beginning of days or end of life, filling heaven and earth: so also hath the human nature not lost its properties, but remained a creature, having beginning of days, being a finite nature, and retaining all the properties of a real body. And though he hath by his resurrection given immortality to the same, nevertheless he hath not changed the reality of his human nature; forasmuch as our salvation and resurrection also depend on the reality of his body. But these two natures are so closely united in one person, that they were not separated even by his death. Therefore that which he, when dying, commended into the hands of his Father, was a real human spirit, departing from his body. But in the meantime the divine nature always remained united with the human, even when he lay in the grave. And the Godhead did not cease to be in him, any more than it did when he was an infant, though it did not so clearly manifest itself for a while. Wherefore we confess, that he is very God, and very Man: very God by his power to conquer death; and very man that he might die for us according to the infirmity of his flesh.

Jon: here is the short list
Mat. 26:26,27,28; Mark 14:22,23,24; Luke 22:19,20; 1Cor. 10:16,17; 1Cor 11:23,24,25
John 6:35,40,47,48,50,51,53,54
John 6:55,56
Acts 3:21; Acts 1:9,10,11; 1Cor 11:26
Eph. 5:29,30,31,32; 1Cor. 6:15,17,19; 1John 3:24
John 6:56,57,58; Eph. 4:15,16
1Cor. 11:23; Mat. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19
Ex. 24:8; Heb. 9:20
Ex. 13:9; 1Cor. 11:26
1Cor. 10:16,17

as for the ‘mixtures’, de Bres undoutably refers to the various additions added to the intstituted sacrament
 
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