Crucifix

[maryj]

Yea, Im a cherry picker of verses, I only cut n paste what is important to me…why should you take heed from verses like these?

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

This always makes me laugh, since it really is very simple, God is so smart and we sometimes are so dumb…So I’ll state first that yes, I do believe there are Catholics and protestants alike that do worship Idols, but here is what I mean by that. I know of a man, who has in his home, a glass turtle. He paid twenty thousand dollars for this piece of art(or that is in the water under the earth) My first thought upon seeing this turtle was this… How many people could have been helped with that money? How many heating bills of the poor could have been paid? How much clothing could have been bought for those who are in need of a warm coat?How much food could the local Salvation Army buy for those in need of a warm meal? How many children could have clean water to drink with a donation of that kind to save the children? Do we worship the glass turtle, do we worship the almighty buck that it cost to display the glass turtles in our homes? Now I’m not saying that we should all sell everything we have and give it to the poor, but is it not the Crucified Christ we told us… When He was hungry we gave Him to eat, when He was thirsty we gave Him to drink…That’s my spin on it. seems so simple doesn’t it? Let’s not “serve” the glass turtle, or what the glass turtle represents. Let us all serve God, and I think it’s pretty clear what He wants of us.

 

[VociMike]

lily, if you think your grandfather or the flag is god…dont kiss em

Now we’ve come to the heart of the matter, and it turns out you agree with us. For thus by inference, if you don’t think your grandfather or the flag (or some crucifix or some statue or…) is God, then there is no idolatry possible. But we’ve been telling you that all along.

BTW, if your strict concept of image=idolatry is true then God made all of us idolators when He became Incarnate, for it is impossible to pray to Christ without forming some mental image in our minds. Since the image is not actually Christ, we all become idolators.

 

[Unitas]

Why non-Catholics are judging the Catholics from the outside without knowing exactly what we are doing? and when we told you guys what we do, you just don’t want to hear the truth.

A spoonful of denial helps the heresy go down?

If we take Baraq’s reasoning a little further, it would seem that we have our own pocket-sized gods. Little gods of stone, plaster, metal, or wood that are made in little god-factories, and sold to little god-stores for us to buy.

(SHH! Don’t let him know we really do worship them! That our little pocket-gods have supernatural powers and that we repetitiously repeat vain heathen prayers to them to invoke their powers!)

oh, did I say that out loud? Oh well, I guess the cat’s outta the bag now. 2000 years of careful subterfuge gone in one statement. /sarcasm off.

C’mon, now… Does this really make sense? Honestly? But I guess these sort of assumptions will just continue no matter how much we prove otherwise. They will continue to think these things because they don’t want to consider the fact that what they’ve been told is wrong.

The notion that we hold these things as idols with powers and we worship them is preposterous. According to Baraq’s definition of “idol” everything that resembles a likeness to anything is an idol. That’s certainly not true, but I doubt he possess the intellectual honesty to admit it.

 

[newbie1234]

A spoonful of denial helps the heresy go down?

If we take Baraq’s reasoning a little further, it would seem that we have our own pocket-sized gods. Little gods of stone, plaster, metal, or wood that are made in little god-factories, and sold to little god-stores for us to buy.

(SHH! Don’t let him know we really do worship them! That our little pocket-gods have supernatural powers and that we repetitiously repeat vain heathen prayers to them to invoke their powers!)

oh, did I say that out loud? Oh well, I guess the cat’s outta the bag now. 2000 years of careful subterfuge gone in one statement. /sarcasm off.

C’mon, now… Does this really make sense? Honestly? But I guess these sort of assumptions will just continue no matter how much we prove otherwise. They will continue to think these things because they don’t want to consider the fact that what they’ve been told is wrong.

The notion that we hold these things as idols with powers and we worship them is preposterous. According to Baraq’s definition of “idol” everything that resembles a likeness to anything is an idol. That’s certainly not true, but I doubt he possess the intellectual honesty to admit it.

After reading all these posts I’ve finally realized that catholics do not in any way, worship idols.
Bowing down and praying to a statue is in no way idolizing in your opinion, and I will accept that. You have made it clear to me that you are aware that idol worship is sinful, and what you are doing is asking for an intercessor, not worship in any way.
Let me point out that some people might misconstrue bowing as a form of worship. see acts10:25-26.
However, it is not your intention to worship Mary or a Crucifix or a statue of ST Francis.
I am learning. Thank you.

 

[Baraq]

hmmmm Unitas, idols have no powers…thats why they are idols
God abhors when you adore a dumb idol, get it yet?

Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Habakkuk 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

 

[Church_Militant]

hmmmm Unitas, idols have no powers…thats why they are idols
God abhors when you adore a dumb idol, get it yet?

Let’s see …since none of us worship idols then you are preaching to the choir aren’t you?

 

[water]

hmmmm Unitas, idols have no powers…thats why they are idols
God abhors when you adore a dumb idol, get it yet?

Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Habakkuk 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Before you think us worshiping stones, images, please explain how the stones of the Ten Commandments got into the Temple and what people were doing with them?

What you have been doing is to those who worship unknown Gods

 

[Church_Militant]

After reading all these posts I’ve finally realized that catholics do not in any way, worship idols.
Bowing down and praying to a statue

is in no way idolizing in your opinion, and I will accept that. You have made it clear to me that you are aware that idol worship is sinful, and what you are doing is asking for an intercessor, not worship in any way.
Let me point out that some people might misconstrue bowing as a form of worship. see acts10:25-26.
However, it is not your intention to worship Mary or a Crucifix or a statue of ST Francis.
I am learning. Thank you.One more important point.

We do not pray to the statues, images, or whatever. Praying to such would be idolatry…

 

[cecilia97]

After reading all these posts I’ve finally realized that catholics do not in any way, worship idols.
Bowing down and praying to a statue is in no way idolizing in your opinion, and I will accept that. You have made it clear to me that you are aware that idol worship is sinful, and what you are doing is asking for an intercessor, not worship in any way.
Let me point out that some people might misconstrue bowing as a form of worship. see acts10:25-26.
However, it is not your intention to worship Mary or a Crucifix or a statue of ST Francis.
I am learning. Thank you.

Wow, newbie, what an honest and brave thing to say! Thank you. Yes, bowing (even kneeling) is not the same as the Catholic way of worship.

 

[newbie1234]

One more important point.

We do not pray to the statues, images, or whatever. Praying to such would be idolatry…

So it would be kneeling in front of the statue but praying to the person that the statue represents.
That is ok I guess.
As long as we agree that any form of idolatry is sinful.
And the prayers ask for intercession only and ALL glory and honor belong to God and Him alone.
Here is some food for thought:
Let’s say you had an old picture of Ronald Reagan or Carter.
You don’t want the pic anymore so you throw it in the trash or in the fireplace. Would you feel guilty at all? Probably not.
Then, let’s say you have an old picture of the Virgin Mary.
How would you feel about destoying that picture?
Let’s also remember that those pics of Mary and Jesus are just artists representations of how they might have looked.
The pics deserve no reverence at all.

 

[Zirconia]

This is quite interesting.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know the earliest use of the crucifix? I am wondering because I read somewhere that portraying the crucifixion in art did not become common until all who had seen a real one died off…

I am also wondering about the posts about forming mental images during prayer. Is this common? It is actually not something that I tend to do, although perhaps this is because I have some pretty extensive issues with visual perception.

So what images usually come to mind?

Zirconia

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello all!!

I recently had a friend ask me why, in Catholic churches, the Body of Christ is on the cross, while in most Protestant churches, the cross is unadorned.

I had no idea how to answer this question, and was wondering if anyone could help me with a response.

God Bless!!!

Paul did not say, “We preach Christ resurrected.” He said, “We preach Christ crucified.”

Paul did not say, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him resurrected.” He said, “except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

Paul did not say, “Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as resurrected.” He said, “clearly portrayed as crucified.”

An empty cross has no power. A cross bearing the body of Christ given for our sins shows the fullness of what God has done for us.

Protestants gave this up in their haste to abandon all things related to Catholicism.

 

[Randy_Carson]

After reading all these posts I’ve finally realized that catholics do not in any way, worship idols.
Bowing down and praying to a statue is in no way idolizing in your opinion, and I will accept that. You have made it clear to me that you are aware that idol worship is sinful, and what you are doing is asking for an intercessor, not worship in any way.
Let me point out that some people might misconstrue bowing as a form of worship. see acts10:25-26.
However, it is not your intention to worship Mary or a Crucifix or a statue of ST Francis.
I am learning. Thank you.

One of the most honest posts I’ve read in a long time. Thanks for blessing us with that Newbie.

Stick around much longer, and you’ll need a new nickname!

 

[newbie1234]

One of the most honest posts I’ve read in a long time. Thanks for blessing us with that Newbie.

Stick around much longer, and you’ll need a new nickname!

I just hope God sees it the same way.

 

[Unitas]

hmmmm Unitas, idols have no powers…thats why they are idols
God abhors when you adore a dumb idol, get it yet?

Habakkuk 2:18 What profiteth the graven image that the maker thereof hath graven it; the molten image, and a teacher of lies, that the maker of his work trusteth therein, to make dumb idols?

Habakkuk 2:19 Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach! Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it.

Habakkuk 2:20 But the LORD is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.

Y’know, amazingly enough it says the same thing in my bible!

Hence why Catholics don’t worship idols; we don’t worship powerless things. That would make no sense.

A statue or a portrait is powerless. It’s merely the sum of its parts. It won’t get up and move around, do a song and dance, make me breakfast, nothing. And if it did I would be thoroughly freaked out.

We have these images to remind us of what they represent. Christ crucified reminds us of—you guessed it—Christ crucified. It’s a reminder of His sacrifice and that sometimes we must bear our own hardships. That memory of Christ’s sacrifice sees us through those hard times. Or a statue of a particular saint, to remember his or her example.

This is the same as people keeping photo albums; to remind you of people, their lives, your experiences with them, what you might have been thinking that day, or to dust off an old memory that makes you smile and cheers you up.

(Or a picture you get in the mail from the motor vehicle division reminding you not to speed anymore. )

It’s really that simple

 

[Alexius]

Paul did not say, “We preach Christ resurrected.” He said, “We preach Christ crucified.”

Paul did not say, “For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him resurrected.” He said, “except Jesus Christ and him crucified.”

Paul did not say, “Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as resurrected.” He said, “clearly portrayed as crucified.”

An empty cross has no power. A cross bearing the body of Christ given for our sins shows the fullness of what God has done for us.

Protestants gave this up in their haste to abandon all things related to Catholicism.

I have no problem with either portrayal. It is; however, a great thing to show Christ crucified, as there are some (like Muslims) who do not believe he died on a cross!

I pray that all of us here come to a better understanding of this…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[newbie1234]

Wow, newbie, what an honest and brave thing to say! Thank you. Yes, bowing (even kneeling) is not the same as the Catholic way of worship.

I went back to exodus 20:5.
It also says you shall not bow to any image.
Would you consider kneeling to be equal to bowing?
If so, do you think it is in Gods will for us to be kneeling to anything besides Him?
Again I’m not saying you are worshiping any statues. I know you are just asking for intercession. But the kneeling before them might be contrary to ex20:5.
Also if you look at acts10:25-26, Peter would not allow Cornelius to kneel in front of him.
Peter being the first pope, told Cornelius “Stand up I am also a man.”
Do you see any problem with kneeling to a statue of Peter now, if he didn’t allow it when he was living?
How about kneeling before the present pope?
Do you think Peter would sanction that?

 

[LilyM]

I went back to exodus 20:5.
It also says you shall not bow to any image.
Would you consider kneeling to be equal to bowing?
If so, do you think it is in Gods will for us to be kneeling to anything besides Him?
Again I’m not saying you are worshiping any statues. I know you are just asking for intercession. But the kneeling before them might be contrary to ex20:5.
Also if you look at acts10:25-26, Peter would not allow Cornelius to kneel in front of him.
Peter being the first pope, told Cornelius “Stand up I am also a man.”
Do you see any problem with kneeling to a statue of Peter now, if he didn’t allow it when he was living?
How about kneeling before the present pope?
Do you think Peter would sanction that?

In all of these cases it is NOT the kneeling itself, or bowing or any other physical action, that is the problem - it is worshipping someone or something as a God. Hence Peter saying ‘I am also a man’. The clear meaning is that Cornelius thought he was a God or an angel or some such more-than-human being and was treating him as such.

Now as a glorified soul in heaven as SAINT Peter is now, he IS now more than a human being - though not a god or a divinity or semidivinity. He wasn’t yet at that time though!

EVERY King or Queen would have had EVERYONE bow, kneel or even prostrate themselves in front of them. And still does. These are gestures of respect, not worship. Equally appropriate for a Pope, a King or a President. God never says not to do such. The only disapproving mention of the practice when Nebuchadnezzar expects people to bow IN WORSHIP (treating it as a god) before a statue of himself.

Look at Genesis 33 - Jacob’s visit with his brother Esau. Jacob bows to his brother SEVEN TIMES as Esau approaches. His wives also bow to Esau. Bowing is simply a gesture of respect with which God has no problem in itself. Not at that time or any other.

Again - I kneel when I’m playing with my nieces and nephews, in fact I kneel when I’m cleaning my shower and bathtub! Men kneel when proposing to their girlfriends. CLEARLY there is NO bodily gesture that in and of itself can be construed as worship. Not one. Because worship includes the PERCEPTION of the thing bowed to, knelt in front of, prayed to or whatever, as God.

 

[lak611]

I went back to exodus 20:5.
It also says you shall not bow to any image.
Would you consider kneeling to be equal to bowing?
If so, do you think it is in Gods will for us to be kneeling to anything besides Him?
Again I’m not saying you are worshiping any statues. I know you are just asking for intercession. But the kneeling before them might be contrary to ex20:5.
Also if you look at acts10:25-26, Peter would not allow Cornelius to kneel in front of him.
Peter being the first pope, told Cornelius “Stand up I am also a man.”
Do you see any problem with kneeling to a statue of Peter now, if he didn’t allow it when he was living?
How about kneeling before the present pope?
Do you think Peter would sanction that?

What if you met the Queen of England? Would you bow out of respect for her? Or how about if you were visiting in Japan. Would you refuse to bow to a Japanese citizen? How do we know that Cornelius was not just following the custom of Romans at the time and that was how he demonstrated proper etiquette according to his culture?

 

[newbie1234]

In all of these cases it is NOT the kneeling itself, or bowing or any other physical action, that is the problem - it is worshipping someone or something as a God. Hence Peter saying ‘I am merely a man’ - the clear meaning is that Cornelius thought he was a God or an angel or some such more-than-human being.

EVERY King or Queen would have had EVERYONE bow, kneel or even prostrate themselves in front of them. And still does. These are gestures of respect. God never says not to do such. The only mention of it is when Nebuchadnezzar expects people to bow IN WORSHIP before a statue of himself.

Look at Genesis 33 - Jacob’s visit with his brother Esau. Jacob bows to his brother SEVEN TIMES as Esau approaches. His wives also bow to Esau. Bowing is simply a gesture of respect with which God has no problem in itself. Not at that time or any other.

Again - I kneel when I’m playing with my nieces and nephews, in fact I kneel when I’m cleaning my shower and bathtub! Men kneel when proposing to their girlfriends. CLEARLY there is NO bodily gesture that in and of itself can be construed as worship. Not one. Because worship includes the PERCEPTION of the thing bowed to, knelt in front of, prayed to or whatever, as God.

My bible says you shall not bow to any image ex20:5
What could that mean other than kneeling in front of or bending at the waist?
I know you are not worshipping. You are asking for intercession which is totally different.
But all those kneelers in front of all those statues seems like it’s contrary to God’s commandment in Ex20:5