Crucifix

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Baraq said:
godfollower- The Hebrew word is Shachah in the original, it means to bow down. The same word is used in Lev 26:1
'Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God. ’
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Hmm. The definitions I’m finding of Shachah are broader than just “bow down” – they’re more like “bow, bow down, beseech, bow down in worship, prostrate before God, prostrate before idols,” etc. We would all agree that worshiping an object is forbidden, but my original comment still seems to stand: isn’t this passage aimed (however it’s translated) at worship as opposed to the physical act of bowing?

To put it another way: if you study karate or tae kwon do, part of the discipline you’ll learn is to bow to the mat (tatami?) when you enter the ring, as well as bowing to the master and to your opponent. Is bowing to the mat idolatry? I really don’t think so; it’s a cultural habit not meant to take away from God.

After all, the word shachah seems to be used throughout the Old Testament in the worshiping sense (e.g., Mickey’s various cites in the previous post), where people bow down before things in worship (e.g., 2 Chr. 29:28-30). Again, I ask, why do you assume that the physical act of bowing is prohibited as opposed to the metaphorical use of the term to mean worship?

To analogize: the First Commandment says “You shall have no other gods before Me.” The sense is not one of physical placement (you can have other gods besides Me, but I get to stand in front); it’s one of metaphorical use: you can’t worship other gods at all. This text seems to be used the same way: you can’t worship anyone or anything other than God. I find it very hard to believe that God would be offended at the physical act of my bowing before someone or something – unless it was in worship or adoration, because those are properly reserved to God alone.
 
VociMike said:
More on bowing down. In Isaiah we read:

Thus says the LORD: "The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabe’ans, men of stature, shall come over to you and be yours, they shall follow you; they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying: `God is with you only, and there is no other, no god besides him.
…
Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.
…
The sons of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you; and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Here God is telling Israel that others shall bow down to her, and it is by God’s own will that they will bow down. If this doesn’t make it clear that bowing down per se is not against the will of God, I don’t know what else to say.
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These passages are referring to people bowing to Israel because their God is Holy and Most powerful. Therefore God is getting the glory. While ex20:5 is talking about the people of Israel giving Gods glory to something else like an idol. Do you see the difference?
The act of kneeling is not a sin. So when you kneel to pick up a napkin it is not a sin against God. But when you kneel in front of a statue it is violation of ex20:5.
 
I_Leatherman said:
And the Ten Commandments God Gave to Moses still stand with the Gospel?

The first commandment God gives to Moses He forbids man to make images. (according to you, Baraq.)

God orders Moses to make a bronze serpent image.

:ehh:
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It is your contention, Baraq, not mine that God forbids the manufacture of images.

Your argument, Baraq, sets God against Himself.

Does God forbid you to make images, Baraq?

:ehh:
 
Hmm, some interesting tidbits on shachah, seems like it doesn’t always imply worship after all:

Lot “bowed down [shachah]” to two of the same three. – Genesis 19:1.

Abraham “bowed himself [shachah]” to the people of Canaan. – Genesis 23:7,12.

Isaac blessed Jacob, saying, “Let nations bow down [shachah - worship] to you;…and let your mother’s sons bow down [shachah - worship] to you.” – Genesis 27:29.

“David stooped and bowed himself [shachah] to the earth” to king Saul. – 1 Samuel 24:8.

Abigail “bowed herself [shachah] to the ground” to David; and again to David’s representatives. – 1 Samuel 25:23,41.

The woman of Tekoah “fell on her face…and did obeisance [shachah - worshipped]” to king David. And Joab and Absalom did likewise, translated “bowed himself [shachah -worshipped].” – 2 Samuel 14:4,22,33

“When Mephibosheth…was come unto David, he fell on his face and did reverence [shachah – worshipped].” – 2 Samuel 9:6
 
ahem stevie…An Eastern Church Nestorian Heretic has a better claim to the formation of the Canon than the fledgling Western Church of the Council of Nicea

For the Poster that thinks ‘Sacred Tradition’ is superior, lol…Unbelievers use the so called oral tradition from Moses as a reason to deny Christ(and they can trump you timewise too)

Leatherman, look at godfollowers definition…its to bow down in worship. Funny how he looked it up but failed to add ‘adoration’. Anyways You are prohibited in making an image of God for purposes like adoration, and worship

godfoll- its bowing in adoration and worship thats prohibited(better go back to the ‘we arent bowing in worship’ argument- then you can return to word games)
 
When someone has been raised to believe that the Catholic Church worships idols, it will be difficult to change their mind. It does not matter how many times you say it–it does not matter how many times you show what the Church teaches through Scripture and Tradition…

prejudice is terrible thing. 😦
 
Baraq said:
ahem stevie…An Eastern Church Nestorian Heretic has a better claim to the formation of the Canon than the fledgling Western Church of the Council of Nicea…
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So you agree then, that the Scriptures were compiled and authorized in the 4th century. 😉

So why would you believe that these scriptures have more authority than the organization that authorized them? :confused:
 
Baraq said:
Leatherman, look at godfollowers definition…its to bow down in worship. Funny how he looked it up but failed to add ‘adoration’. Anyways You are prohibited in making an image of God for purposes like adoration, and worship
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Oh…hurrah…we can make graven images again. Thank you Baraq.

You say we adore and worship images.

Are you sure you want to accuse us of that?

Imagine yourself now as a super-duper new Catholic convert and you want the low-down on how to worship images as God - the same as every other Catholic does.

So, can you please go to the Official Catholic Instruction Manual and quote to me from it the correct form and method Catholics should use for worshipping images?

Thanks.

:ehh:
 
Church_Militant said:
One more important point.

We do not pray to the statues, images, or whatever. Praying to such would be idolatry…
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Come on Mike… Everymorning when we began school we used to say the pledge. I know that every fundamentalist who faced the flag and placed his hand on his heart was actually pledging his allegiance to piece of fabric.

P.S. went to washington dc on Monday, I was appuled by all the idols placed there by those sneaky non-Catholic founding Fat… Oops, Matthew’s Gospel tells me not that word, founders of our nation. I know that is a temple we have to dead president named Lincoln at the end of the mall. It looked very nice next to that Egyptian obelisk dedicated to the first god of our nation, washington. When I went to vietnam wall I saw flowers all over the place, how dare those people make offerings to a black wall of granite!
 
Baraq said:
Leatherman, look at godfollowers definition…its to bow down in worship. Funny how he looked it up but failed to add ‘adoration’. Anyways You are prohibited in making an image of God for purposes like adoration, and worship

godfoll- its bowing in adoration and worship thats prohibited(better go back to the ‘we arent bowing in worship’ argument- then you can return to word games)
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Well, that’s the very point I was making: the text you’re citing from Exodus seems (to me, anyway) to be prohibiting worship and adoration of images, not the physical act of bowing. And Catholics don’t worship or adore images – even though Catholics do, on occasion, bow before the altar (or kneel in prayer to God in front of an image of a saint or of Christ).

So the charge of idolatry for hanging crucifixes on the wall is incorrect.

(I’m sorry that you thought I was playing word games, because I wasn’t trying to; someone had made an earlier post to the effect of “Oh, I see, so you aren’t worshiping the crucifix. Good. But Exodus says you can’t bow.” So I was responding that I thought it wasn’t the bowing that was the problem in that text – which I think you agree with).

(Sorry about leaving out the meaning of adoration, but I agree that adoration seems to be the point of shachah, at least from my limited understanding).
 
Baraq said:
Militant,

yea, I see people kissing blocks of wood and stone all the time…its completely normal, no worship or adoration there{rolling eyes}
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Are you saying you are seeing this things in the context of a Catholic mass? If so:
a) why don’t ask one of these people what they are doing and why?

b) keep going to Catholic mass - all that scriptural knowledge you have must be leading you somewhere:thumbsup:

Oh yeah - one more thing. Seeing your distrust for graven images of all kinds, I think it best if you taken all the graven images out of your wallet and send them to me.

Thanks!🙂
 
LilyM said:
In all of these cases it is NOT the kneeling itself, or bowing or any other physical action, that is the problem - it is worshipping someone or something as a God. Hence Peter saying ‘I am also a man’. The clear meaning is that Cornelius thought he was a God or an angel or some such more-than-human being and was treating him as such.

Now as a glorified soul in heaven as SAINT Peter is now, he IS now more than a human being - though not a god or a divinity or semidivinity. He wasn’t yet at that time though!

EVERY King or Queen would have had EVERYONE bow, kneel or even prostrate themselves in front of them. And still does. These are gestures of respect, not worship. Equally appropriate for a Pope, a King or a President. God never says not to do such. The only disapproving mention of the practice when Nebuchadnezzar expects people to bow IN WORSHIP (treating it as a god) before a statue of himself.

Look at Genesis 33 - Jacob’s visit with his brother Esau. Jacob bows to his brother SEVEN TIMES as Esau approaches. His wives also bow to Esau. Bowing is simply a gesture of respect with which God has no problem in itself. Not at that time or any other.

Again - I kneel when I’m playing with my nieces and nephews, in fact I kneel when I’m cleaning my shower and bathtub! Men kneel when proposing to their girlfriends. CLEARLY there is NO bodily gesture that in and of itself can be construed as worship. Not one. Because worship includes the PERCEPTION of the thing bowed to, knelt in front of, prayed to or whatever, as God.
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I agree with Lily…it’s the state of mind that determines “worship”.

You can bow without worshipping, and you can worship without bowing.

If bowing and kneeling were the only things that constituted worship, the evangelical mega-church down the road from me would have kneelers.
 
Baraq said:
godfoll- its bowing in adoration and worship thats prohibited(better go back to the ‘we arent bowing in worship’ argument- then you can return to word games)
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Before we even entertain word games, I suggest you go to an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, or a Catholic Mass. I would suggest you attend for a month. Whenever anything bothers you, ask open questions to the Priest afterwards. If you have many questions, schedule a time where you and the Priest can sit down and talk.

I have a friend who spends much of his time working on apologetics for why the Mormon Church is mistaken. He said “the first thing people need to do before they attack a system is observe it. I would never denounce the Mormons until I understand their worship. I attended three months of services. Now I am ready to make an intelligent critique.”

He is probably the most effective apologist against Mormonism that I know. If you wish to be an affective evangelist to Catholics (if you really think Catholics need saving, or at least straightening out), talk to a Priest, go to Mass, maybe even attend an RCIA program. Then you may find out that what you thought was wrong wasn’t, and you may have better insight and appreciation as to why they do what they do.

If any belief (Catholicism, Islam, Orthodox Christianity, Judaism, Baptist worship, Hinduism) large groups of educated people are involved in looks absolutely stupid and pointless, it is because you don’t understand it. After understanding, you may find out that it is wrong, evil, pig-headed, ignorant, prideful, but not stupid and not pointless.

And then you will be prepared to challenge the belief.
 
leather- Is/was David a man made image?

Mickey- I was raised Catholic, then I read the Scriptures

Steve- I cant help learning disabilities

Max- I recently watched a show on ETWN w/Scott Hahn, enjoyed it(as Hahn was Reformed but now a Dominican Prof) He tried to defend the unfolding mass with scripture , but failed. He must return to the Church Fathers and what the Holy See feels they meant. Anyways…As for all those images on our money, looks like those bankers and freemasons can teach your mystics a thing or two.
 
Noma, Ive been to both…enjoyed them very much …mind you…Not the idolatry, but the communion of saints. I love the Roman Catholics and Orthodox, such a loyal innocent faith.
 
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