Crucifix

[lak611]

And it said the bit about it not being a magical charm or a guarantee of salvation? I’ll look like an idiot if it didn’t, of course

Yes it did. It was just like what was on the website.

 

[newbie1234]

newbie, I know that every scapular that’s sold out there comes with an information leaflet with it. And I also know how that leaflet reads (I had a scapular as a child, don’t wear one any more).

It always says what is on this webpage of the Carmelites, whose scapular it is :

carmelnet.org/scapular/rules/rules.htm

Read very carefully the third paragraph down. It says, in exactly so many words:

"The Carmelite Scapular is not:

a magical charm to protect you
an automatic guarantee of salvation
an excuse for not living up to the demands of the Christian life"

Obviously

a) you didn’t receive one of these leaflets with your scapular (which is the fault of whoever gave it to you),

b) didn’t read it (which is your own fault),

c) or read it and didn’t understand that ‘not a magical charm’ MEANS ‘not a magical charm’ and that ‘not an automatic guarantee of salvation’ MEANS ‘not an automatic guarantee of salvation’

in any event ALL come with a leaflet and EVERY one of the many leaflets I’ve seen has that same paragraph on it.

I do really hope you respond to this post. I spend a lot of time and effort to put actual fact and logical argument into my posts, it’s incredibly rude of you not to respond.

I never saw any leaflet.
The scapular in my mothers car reads whoever wears this will be saved from eternal fire. I just saw it a month or so ago.
There was no leaflet attached.
The scapular I carried had no leaflet.
The statue of St Joseph I buried to sell my house had a leaflet though. It said something like this:bury this in the ground upside down and many people say that your house problems will be solved. You could buy these St.Joseph statues in Catholic Book Stores. Check it out. You’ll be amazed.

 

[lak611]

I never saw any leaflet.
The scapular in my mothers car reads whoever wears this will be saved from eternal fire. I just saw it a month or so ago.
There was no leaflet attached.
The scapular I carried had no leaflet.

You probably never saw the leaflet because it would be extremely silly to wear a scapular with a big piece of paper attached to it. Imagine wearing a necklace with a 3" paper attached to it. I cannot even stand labels on my shirts. That itching would be way too much penance for me to endure.:whacky: I threw out the leaflet, just like one would throw out a price tag on clothing (or jewelry) before wearing it.

 

[Church_Militant]

I never saw any leaflet.
The scapular in my mothers car reads whoever wears this will be saved from eternal fire. I just saw it a month or so ago.
There was no leaflet attached.
The scapular I carried had no leaflet.
The statue of St Joseph I buried to sell my house had a leaflet though. It said something like this:bury this in the ground upside down and many people say that your house problems will be solved. You could buy these St.Joseph statues in Catholic Book Stores. Check it out. You’ll be amazed.

None of that is the fault of the Catholic Church. If gullible individuals get into weird devotions, or do them wrong just because some store sold it to them, why is it that you make out as if that is the whole Catholic Church, when it clearly is not. Are you that prejudiced?

Did the house sell?

The only thing that I find even remotely amazing is the level of weirdness that some people will fall for and your persistent gripe that all that is the fault of the Catholic Church and some kind of valid indictment of our most holy faith.

I think you need to put your prejudices (& baggage) on the back burner and make a real effort to find out what the Catholic Church really does teach before you go on with your journey of faith. This kind of anti-Catholic junk is precisely the stuff that got me looking into Catholic sources to find out if it was true and when I discovered how wrong the a-Cs were, I went on to study to show myself approved unto God and came home to faith.

There is a series of excellent FREE Catholic courses that you can get one at a time from The Catholic Home Study Service. Pick one and get the facts and decide for yourself. They are not just for Catholics, but for anyone who wants to know what we believe and they are very very good. (I know…I’ve completed them all, and still have all my stuff so if you have questions you can contact me and I’ll try to help ya out with it.)

How bout it Newbie? Or are ya scared?

 

[LilyM]

I never saw any leaflet.
The scapular in my mothers car reads whoever wears this will be saved from eternal fire. I just saw it a month or so ago.
There was no leaflet attached.
The scapular I carried had no leaflet.
The statue of St Joseph I buried to sell my house had a leaflet though. It said something like this:bury this in the ground upside down and many people say that your house problems will be solved. You could buy these St.Joseph statues in Catholic Book Stores. Check it out. You’ll be amazed.

I know all about what some scapulars say. If you didn’t get a leaflet which gives you the facts that’s not my fault and it means you’re ignorant of the real significance of a scapular.

The St Joseph statues I know about too. Nothing amazing there, because unlike you I’m not ignorant in any respect. They’re an ignorant, verging on superstitious, practice.

Not endorsed and probably condemned by the Catholic Church. Just like the Medjugorje apparitions. The church has done everything it can to discourage such. They are NOT, officially or unofficially, part of the Catholic faith system. No pilgrimages are even allowed there.

Not that I expect you’ll understand the difference between practices that are permitted, endorsed or encouraged by the church and practices which aren’t but are carried on by misinformed people who call themselves Catholic. That’s your ignorance, most Catholics (and as lovely as your mother sounds she is possibly one of the superstitious minority) DO know the difference between the two.

 

[newbie1234]

I know all about what some scapulars say. If you didn’t get a leaflet which gives you the facts that’s not my fault and it means you’re ignorant of the real significance of a scapular.

The St Joseph statues I know about too. Nothing amazing there, because unlike you I’m not ignorant in any respect. They’re an ignorant, verging on superstitious, practice.

Not endorsed and probably condemned by the Catholic Church. Just like the Medjugorje apparitions. The church has done everything it can to discourage such. They are NOT, officially or unofficially, part of the Catholic faith system. No pilgrimages are even allowed there.

Not that I expect you’ll understand the difference between practices that are permitted, endorsed or encouraged by the church and practices which aren’t but are carried on by misinformed people who call themselves Catholic. That’s your ignorance, most Catholics (and as lovely as your mother sounds she is possibly one of the superstitious minority) DO know the difference between the two.

If I am not mistaken I am pretty sure I saw one of those St Joseph statues in one of the basilica’s in Rome. In the basilica book store.
Seems like an awful lot of people are misinformed or ignorant.In my travels I’ve also seen Holy Healing Water from the fountains of one of those Marion sites being sold somewhere in a church book store. This holy relic stuff is all over the place IN basilica book stores, in Jerusalem, Rome, France and other places.

 

[Church_Militant]

If I am not mistaken I am pretty sure I saw one of those St Joseph statues in one of the basilica’s in Rome. In the basilica book store.
Seems like an awful lot of people are misinformed or ignorant.In my travels I’ve also seen Holy Healing Water from the fountains of one of those Marion sites being sold somewhere in a church book store. This holy relic stuff is all over the place IN basilica book stores, in Jerusalem, Rome, France and other places.

The statues of St. Joseph are not the issue, it is the misuse and weird devotions of some people like you had.

The Lourdes water has been known to have been the instrument of healing in thousands of cases. Get a look at the site itself and look at all the crutches, wheelchairs and other silent witnesses to healings. How is that different from people laying out sick people so that Peter’s shadow could fall on them or cloths that they handled doing the same thing? Every single case gives glory to God and is a testimony to faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. So what’s your problem with that?

 

[newbie1234]

The statues of St. Joseph are not the issue, it is the misuse and weird devotions of some people like you had.

The Lourdes water has been known to have been the instrument of healing in thousands of cases. Get a look at the site itself and look at all the crutches, wheelchairs and other silent witnesses to healings. How is that different from people laying out sick people so that Peter’s shadow could fall on them or cloths that they handled doing the same thing? Every single case gives glory to God and is a testimony to faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ. So what’s your problem with that?

Does the Lourdes water give glory to God or Mary?
Do you think those people crawling on their bloody knees are thinking of God the Father or Mary?
I know what the standard answer is.
But what do YOU think in your heart
Do you really think those Marion Devotees are loving God above all else. Or is it Mary?
You don’t have to answer.

 

[LilyM]

Does the Lourdes water give glory to God or Mary?
Do you think those people crawling on their bloody knees are thinking of God the Father or Mary?
I know what the standard answer is.
But what do YOU think in your heart
Do you really think those Marion Devotees are loving God above all else. Or is it Mary?
You don’t have to answer.

Oh but I do have to answer, for as long as I have breath to testify to the truth of my faith, which people like you don’t seem to want to hear or know about. Of course they are thinking of God above all. No God, no Mary, get it??? She has importance through Christ and because of him.

Just like Peter and Paul had importance through Christ and because of Christ. And people would bring napkins to Paul to touch and try to catch Peter’s shadow so that they could be healed by them.

 

[Church_Militant]

Does the Lourdes water give glory to God or Mary?

Yes it does.

Do you think those people crawling on their bloody knees are thinking of God the Father or Mary?

I don’t know and neither do you.

I know what the standard answer is.

I can’t tell…You don’t seem to know much accurate information on the Catholic faith, as I’ve proved to you again and again.

But what do YOU think in your heart

I believe in my heart that they, I, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters are very very deeply committed to God.

I think you are some kind of disgruntled and deceived guy who can’t seem to accept facts when someone shows him that the Bible waving, pulpit pounding, teachers and preachers that he has fallen in with are misleading him not only about what Catholics really believe but about what the Bible teaches and what Christians have believed for 2,000 years. My jury is still out as to whether you have the guts and the courage of your convictions to actually study the Catholic Home Study Service courses that I linked for you and see if what you have been taught is true or not.

Do you really think those Marion Devotees are loving God above all else. Or is it Mary?

God above all else, and you cannot prove otherwise, now, can you? I am one of them and I know my own heart.

You don’t have to answer.

Oh but I have, I will, and I will never fail to stand and deliver when someone makes allegations against our most holy faith.
On that you can rely unto my dying breath.

 

[newbie1234]

Yes it does.I don’t know and neither do you.I can’t tell…You don’t seem to know much accurate information on the Catholic faith, as I’ve proved to you again and again.I believe in my heart that they, I, and all my Catholic brothers and sisters are very very deeply committed to God.

I think you are some kind of disgruntled and deceived guy who can’t seem to accept facts when someone shows him that the Bible waving, pulpit pounding, teachers and preachers that he has fallen in with are misleading him not only about what Catholics really believe but about what the Bible teaches and what Christians have believed for 2,000 years. My jury is still out as to whether you have the guts and the courage of your convictions to actually study the Catholic Home Study Service courses that I linked for you and see if what you have been taught is true or not.God above all else, and you cannot prove otherwise, now, can you? I am one of them and I know my own heart.
Oh but I have, I will, and I will never fail to stand and deliver when someone makes allegations against our most holy faith.
On that you can rely unto my dying breath.

I know what I have been taught about relics, statues, scapulars,and holy water is false.
Please forgive me for not going to your link. I am very busy studying my bible.
The way it stands is: you follow your traditions and I will follow my bible. And never the twain shall meet.

 

[newbie1234]

Oh but I do have to answer, for as long as I have breath to testify to the truth of my faith, which people like you don’t seem to want to hear or know about. Of course they are thinking of God above all. No God, no Mary, get it??? She has importance through Christ and because of him.

Just like Peter and Paul had importance through Christ and because of Christ. And people would bring napkins to Paul to touch and try to catch Peter’s shadow so that they could be healed by them.

OK.
I will be shutting down for the night.
In the morning I will be going snowboarding for 5 days so forgive me if I don’t answer your posts.
I might bring my laptop though.

 

[LilyM]

I know what I have been taught about relics, statues, scapulars,and holy water is false.
Please forgive me for not going to your link. I am very busy studying my bible.
The way it stands is: you follow your traditions and I will follow my bible. And never the twain shall meet.

If you know that what you have been taught doesn’t gel with Catholic teaching, then why for heaven’s sake do you keep on endlessly repeating these untruths that you’ve been taught as if they WERE representative of it??

And if you’re reading your bible, then make sure you read and think about the passage where people take napkins that Paul has used and heal others with them, and the verses where people are healed simply by Peter’s shadow falling on them. It has nothing to do with tradition and everything to do with those two scriptural passages telling us precisely that blessed objects can be aids to healing. Not magic or voodoo or idolatry, but the power of Christ who works miracles through and with his saints as he himself has promised.

These two behaviours are no different to the mentality behind using Lourdes water or other blessed objects - not a bit. If you can accept the first (which you must if you believe your Bible) then the second follows logically.

 

[Church_Militant]

I know what I have been taught about relics, statues, scapulars,and holy water is false.

I don’t know what you are referring to but if it’s the line you’ve been holding forth here , you need to get better info.

Please forgive me for not going to your link. I am very busy studying my bible.

See… this is fine. Bring that Bible and get that Catholic study called “We Believe…” and then sit down and see for yourself. If you are so secure in your wonderful faith then it won’t be a problem, but if you begin to see, (as I did) that someone has misled you then you need to get the facts for yourself because you sure as vitam aeternam won’t get the facts from your current man made sources.

The way it stands is: you follow your traditions and I will follow my bible. And never the twain shall meet.

What’s the matter? The challenge is good enough for you to tell Catholics to study what you believe and follow it, but when the challenge is for you to study to show yourself approved unto God …rightly dividing the word of truth and see if you have accurate Christian beliefs you bail and make a cute remark?

You certainly don’t seem to really believe all that stuff you have been laying down around here if you can’t put it to the same kind of test that you expect us Catholics to do.

I don’t know about anyone else on here, but based on that right there I’d conclude that what you have been telling us can’t be righteous Christian teaching because you seem to be afraid to try it to see if it holds up.

I did study all that stuff that you and other n-Cs try to hand out…heck…I shared it with others for over 34 years and when I checked it because some guy laid some propaganda on me it all fell apart. Just as it will if you do your own homework.

If you have the courage of your religious convictions…

 

[newbie1234]

If you know that what you have been taught doesn’t gel with Catholic teaching, then why for heaven’s sake do you keep on endlessly repeating these untruths that you’ve been taught as if they WERE representative of it??

And if you’re reading your bible, then make sure you read and think about the passage where people take napkins that Paul has used and heal others with them, and the verses where people are healed simply by Peter’s shadow falling on them.

These two behaviours are no different to the mentality behind using Lourdes water or other blessed objects - not a bit. If you can accept the first (which you must if you believe your Bible) then the second follows logically.

What I have been taught doesn’t gel with my bible.
Whether or not it gels with catholic teaching is not clear because I know plenty of catholics who believe these things.
Here on catholic apologetics, everyone is trained with the answers to these questions, but the catholics I meet on the street and the ones in my family are still practicing the very things I am refering to. Do you have any idea how many people carry around rosaries or a crucifix because they think it will protect them, even though they have very little faith in God?

 

[newbie1234]

I don’t know what you are referring to but if it’s the line you’ve been holding forth here , you need to get better info.See… this is fine. Bring that Bible and get that Catholic study called “We Believe…” and then sit down and see for yourself. If you are so secure in your wonderful faith then it won’t be a problem, but if you begin to see, (as I did) that someone has misled you then you need to get the facts for yourself because you sure as vitam aeternam won’t get the facts from your current man made sources.What’s the matter? The challenge is good enough for you to tell Catholics to study what you believe and follow it, but when the challenge is for you to study to show yourself approved unto God …rightly dividing the word of truth and see if you have accurate Christian beliefs you bail and make a cute remark?

You certainly don’t seem to really believe all that stuff you have been laying down around here if you can’t put it to the same kind of test that you expect us Catholics to do.

I don’t know about anyone else on here, but based on that right there I’d conclude that what you have been telling us can’t be righteous Christian teaching because you seem to be afraid to try it to see if it holds up.

I did study all that stuff that you and other n-Cs try to hand out…heck…I shared it with others for over 34 years and when I checked it because some guy laid some propaganda on me it all fell apart. Just as it will if you do your own homework.

If you have the courage of your religious convictions…

Now you are trying to prosletyze me.

Believe me you don’t want me in your church. First of all I wouldn’t last 10 minutes before I’m excommunicated.
Secondly, do you think I will sit in the pew in silent submission? Not A chance. I would not be silent till all things were made right.
I haven’t even touched on all the issues I have with catholic dogma. Mary and the saints are just the tip of the iceberg. And I know I can’t get anywhere with those two issues.

 

[Church_Militant]

What I have been taught doesn’t gel with my bible.
Whether or not it gels with catholic teaching is not clear because I know plenty of catholics who believe these things.
Here on catholic apologetics, everyone is trained with the answers to these questions

, but the catholics I meet on the street and the ones in my family are still practicing the very things I am refering to. **Do you have any idea how many people carry around rosaries or a crucifix because they think it will protect them, even though they have very little faith in God?**And just how exactly is that the fault of the Catholic Church?

That’s like saying we are responsible for the errant jive that you are saying about the Catholic faith when in fact we had nothing to do with it.

Trained? Yeah…all by myself…courtesy of the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[LilyM]

What I have been taught doesn’t gel with my bible.
Whether or not it gels with catholic teaching is not clear because I know plenty of catholics who believe these things.
Here on catholic apologetics, everyone is trained with the answers to these questions, but the catholics I meet on the street and the ones in my family are still practicing the very things I am refering to. Do you have any idea how many people carry around rosaries or a crucifix because they think it will protect them, even though they have very little faith in God?

Well, if I lived in or near a jail I’d know plenty of people who thought crime was ok too. Does that mean I take their word for it? Or think that their word was representative of everyone’s beliefs? Of course not.

As for not having faith in God - well they have enough faith in him to think that his power can work through material objects. Now the Bible shows us that it CAN in fact so work - hence the napkins that St Paul blessed that were used to heal people, and the woman who was healed by touching the hem of Jesus’ cloak. There’s nothing unbiblical about the idea at all. So it seems they have more faith in God’s power, and just possibly a more accurate understanding of the Bible on this point, than you do.

And trust me, it doesn’t take a visit to CAF to tell ANYONE, Catholic or not, that Mary is not a goddess or on the same level as God in any way. I can assure you I knew that well before I began school.

 

[Church_Militant]

Now you are trying to prosletyze me.

Believe me you don’t want me in your church. First of all I wouldn’t last 10 minutes before I’m excommunicated.
Secondly, do you think I will sit in the pew in silent submission? Not A chance. I would not be silent till all things were made right.
I haven’t even touched on all the issues I have with catholic dogma. Mary and the saints are just the tip of the iceberg. And I know I can’t get anywhere with those two issues.

You can’t get anywhere with any issues Newbie, because every time you allege something you think will bring the Catholic Church crashing down and you try to spoon feed it to us Catholics it will be shot down in flames for the propaganda that it is.

You are wasting your time trying to proselytize Catholics because what you believe is unbiblical teachings of men, and every time you spout it we’ll be here to show that it’s dead wrong. I don’t think you’ve made an accurate statement about the Catholic faith in any of your 500 posts. If you keep on like this…you have any even if you survive to 5,000 posts.

You don’t really believe all that stuff because you are plain old afraid to check it against real Catholic teaching. You’re afraid that your pastor will find out and chew you out, or that it might actually prove to be true and then you’d have to swallow your pride and come home like I did. Just don’t pray to the Holy Spirit and ask him to guide you and be sure not to promise Him that you’ll follow what He shows you wherever it leads. You won’t like the results.

 

[patrick457]

The way it stands is: you follow your traditions and I will follow my bible. And never the twain shall meet.

Actually they do. No one is complete without the other. The Church is a witness to this for 2000 years.

It is only Sola Scriptura that makes it appear that it is not so.