Crucifixes

[awantz]

My 12 year old daughter is selling crucifixes to raise money for camp.

I wasn’t sure if she should ask her nonCatholic friends and family to buy one. On one hand, I think it would be a nice way to share a Catholic tradition. And, on the other, I worried that it might upset people.

I’m not completely sure why nonCatholics are offended by the crucifix.

I’m Protestant and I’m not affended by the Crucifix. I’d say go ahead and ask.

 

[ricmat]

I’m Catholic, but I thought that the Protestant (or non-Catholic) objection to the Crucifix was primarily that it was “an idol that Catholics worshiped.”

I understand why the OP is concerned about this.

I did a quick search and didn’t see any responses like that, although maybe I missed them…

To those Protestants (or other non-Catholics) who responded that a crucifix is not an issue…that’s wonderful news! Really!

 

[Publisher]

Thanks. That would explain why I am not familiar with that teaching–I don’t know that much about JW’s. Saying that JW’s or Mormon’s teach something, though, is usually very different than saying “some non-Catholic Christians” do so, so I am curious as to whether this is the group that Charlie meant.

BTW, just fyi, it’s stauros rather than stratos, in case anyone else is looking for info–I think you may be confusing it with the Latin stratum, or layer, which gives us the prefix strato- as in stratosphere.

Yes I was confusing the two words…thank you.

 

[Publisher]

Yes it does matter…Christs Church said it happened on a cross.End of discusion.Because we were witnesses when it happened and have taught since that time it is a done deal.It AMAZES me when someone tries to interpret the Bible today to say what they think a word or phrase means,when HIS Church recieved the teachings directly from Jesus and his Apostles.The first book of the Bible wasnt written for almost 30 years after His death,but the Apostles were preaching and TEACHING shortly after his Resurection.

I have no quarrel with you on the matter…he died, nailed to the tree. It wouldn’t matter to me if he was nailed to an upright beam…“crucified” is “crucified”…nails were driven through his hands and feet and he died…the story of salvation through his death and resurrection would not suffer one iota…his act of love happened through nails and wood…if it’s a cross…great…if it’s a “torture stake”…great…he still died…and the tomb is still empty.

 

[Publisher]

I think you’ll find most of the “conservative/evangelicals” are really "put off’ by crucifixes. Most Protestants, especially from liturgical traditions, don’t have a problem with them.

To make a crucifix a bone of contention with Protestants really does no one any service…from the posts here it seems to be more important to those Catholics who’ve responded to keep the idea up that Protestants are offended by them…most aren’t…most don’t really care a great deal about it…it’s part of a tradition…many Protestants from liturgical traditions are somewhat comfortable with Orthodox icons…in most of the Episcopal churches and some Methodist and Prebyterian I’ve visited…Orthodox icons of Christ or the crucifiction are present in the sanctuary.

I think it’s the Evangelcials/Fundamentalists who have the real issue.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I think you’ll find most of the “conservative/evangelicals” are really "put off’ by crucifixes. Most Protestants, especially from liturgical traditions, don’t have a problem with them.

To make a crucifix a bone of contention with Protestants really does no one any service…from the posts here it seems to be more important to those Catholics who’ve responded to keep the idea up that Protestants are offended by them…most aren’t…most don’t really care a great deal about it…it’s part of a tradition…many Protestants from liturgical traditions are somewhat comfortable with Orthodox icons…in most of the Episcopal churches and some Methodist and Prebyterian I’ve visited…Orthodox icons of Christ or the crucifiction are present in the sanctuary.

I think it’s the Evangelcials/Fundamentalists who have the real issue.

I find Evangelicals/ Fundamentalists the most hard to convince to make them understand our belief.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

It’s only offending because it reminds them of how petty they are.

gee joey everyone in the middle of a discussion and hmmm

so joey and et el

I just stated what Ive heard other protestants state to me as to why the crufix upsets them. Just being honest here. Theres no missing what Christ did, no missing the point of what Christ did, no pettyness.

AT THE RISK of oversimplifying things

Think of it this way Catholics are reminded by Christ on a Cross and protestants are reminded by Christ not on a Cross.

 

[KarenNC]

Think of it this way Catholics are reminded by Christ on a Cross and protestants are reminded by Christ not on a Cross.

I have always found it interesting that the figure was not added until about the 5th century and then up until about 1000, one did not see the suffering Christ on the cross but the Christ Triumphant, standing upright with arms outspread.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I have always found it interesting that the figure was not added until about the 5th century and then up until about 1000, one did not see the suffering Christ on the cross but the Christ Triumphant, standing upright with arms outspread.

interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Then there are celtic crosses and various types with different cross parts easteren I think.

My hubby doesnt like me wearing anything but a plain cross so I dont were something wrong He does have a point.

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

 

[KarenNC]

interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Fish, tridents, etc. A symbol has no inherent meaning on its own, only that which the culture in which it is used gives to it. There have been lots of symbols used by the Christian Church over the centuries, none of them unique to Christianity. Heck, even the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol at one time (see the device of Sir Gawain).

answers.com/topic/pentagram-2

"According to Heather Child’s Christian Symbols, Ancient and Modern[6], the pentagram is a symbol of the five senses. Also, when the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, the pentagram is a symbol of health (Latin salūs).

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[7]

The pentagram figured in the heavily symbolic Arthurian romances.[7] It appears on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th Century poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In the poem the five lines of the star are given multiple meanings: they represent the five senses, five fingers, the five wounds of Christ[8], the five joys that Mary had of Jesus (the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Assumption), and the five virtues of knighthood which Gawain hopes to embody: frankness, fellowship, purity, courtesy and compassion.

Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.[7]"

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

I would say absolutely they can be cultural and even trendy . Plain, ornate, with jewels, without, with extra curlicues. those that represent different saints (St. Peter’s Cross), different areas (Jerusalem Cross), Celtic and Norse crosses with interlace, all sorts. Artistic convention, as well as use of plainer or more ornate materials to reflect the wealth or position of the wearer (say a more elaborate one for an abbot) or the piety/vow of poverty, in the case of a plain one for a monastic, for instance.

 

[leonie]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. It’s really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we’ll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I’m hesitant about any “Catholic” type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I’m so steeped in my Catholic identity, I’m trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I’m not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff…just not sure.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Thanks to everyone for their responses. It’s really helpful. The group we are involved with is mostly evangelical and fundamental Protestants, so I guess we’ll probably just refrain from doing our fundraiser there.

I guess one reason that I’m hesitant about any “Catholic” type issues in this group is because a few of the moms are uncomfortable having Catholics in the group. And, this year the number of Catholics went from two families to five families out of 25 total.

Because I’m so steeped in my Catholic identity, I’m trying to be very careful about how I present my Faith in the group. Sometimes, I’m not sure what are big issues for evangelical Protestants. I know the Pope and Mary, but some of the other stuff…just not sure.

Refraining is a good idea since we have this new information.

 

[kellyann]

I don’t see any harm in asking. They can always so no. If a particular person is very touchy about such things, maybe you should avoid asking them, but for the average non-Catholic, I don’t think they would be offended, especially if it is a 12 year old girl doing the asking.

It is an excellent opportunity to evangelize!

I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

 

[leonie]

I think it would be just fine, I am 13 and have no catholic friends I would ask them if they wanted to buy one then if they got affended I would ask them why and then tell them why they should not get affended and mabe if you would explain it then mabe they will get the idea

Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I’ll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

 

[kellyann]

Thanks Kellyann, it would be a nice opportunity for my daughter to learn how to explain the crucifix and why it important to Catholics. I’ll talk to her and see if she feels confident enough to answer questions.

good luck! I will pray for her and you.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

interesting Karen also the eary christians they used the fish symbol? right, I never see a early cross of any kind.

Fish, tridents, etc. A symbol has no inherent meaning on its own, only that which the culture in which it is used gives to it. There have been lots of symbols used by the Christian Church over the centuries, none of them unique to Christianity. Heck, even the pentacle was used as a Christian symbol at one time (see the device of Sir Gawain).

answers.com/topic/pentagram-2

"According to Heather Child’s Christian Symbols, Ancient and Modern[6], the pentagram is a symbol of the five senses. Also, when the letters S, A, L, V, and S are inscribed in the points, the pentagram is a symbol of health (Latin salūs).

Medieval Christians believed it to symbolize the five wounds of Christ. The pentagram was believed to protect against witches and demons.[7]

The pentagram figured in the heavily symbolic Arthurian romances.[7] It appears on the shield of Sir Gawain in the 14th Century poem, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. In the poem the five lines of the star are given multiple meanings: they represent the five senses, five fingers, the five wounds of Christ[8], the five joys that Mary had of Jesus (the Annunciation, the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension and the Assumption), and the five virtues of knighthood which Gawain hopes to embody: frankness, fellowship, purity, courtesy and compassion.

Probably due to misinterpretation of symbols used by ceremonial magicians, it later became associated with Satanism and subsequently rejected by most of Christianity sometime in the twentieth century.[7]"

I hate to ask but perhaps crosses can be cultural?? and yikes even trendy??? Certainly rosarys can be as well with pearls etc. Not saying its wrong but all very interesting.

I would say absolutely they can be cultural and even trendy . Plain, ornate, with jewels, without, with extra curlicues. those that represent different saints (St. Peter’s Cross), different areas (Jerusalem Cross), Celtic and Norse crosses with interlace, all sorts. Artistic convention, as well as use of plainer or more ornate materials to reflect the wealth or position of the wearer (say a more elaborate one for an abbot) or the piety/vow of poverty, in the case of a plain one for a monastic, for instance.

Interesting Karen I admit to still uncomfortableness on a pentagram, Id still leave it alone, its been claimed since, if God wants it back Hed have to achieve it.

Another thing about the cross and crucufix is different people interpert it differently. My friend was wearing a Crucufix and in the middle of putting together a costume for a video and the girl in the shop said oh you will have to get rid of the crucfix as its sin and you shouldnt have it on. So away from catholic and protestant circles the interpertations vary.

So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

 

[water]

So I guess I dont know I guess let catholics have a reminder of Christ on the Cross and protestants have a reminder of Christ off the Cross.

I would say Catholics have a reminder of Christ both on and off the Cross.

On the Cross, He died for our sins - that is His greatest mercy towards us. On the Cross, He is offering us His body and blood in the Eucharist - thanks for the daily Mass. His dying on the Cross also reminds us of His great victory over dead.

Off the cross, He is a very loving, gentle and closing to each one of us as a brother, friend, and father. Each one of us reminds of Him - that is to love one another.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

oh water thanks but to be clear we were discussing cross versus crucifix.

Is a crucifix a reminder of Christ on the Cross? I know you just said different, but Karen and I were trying to determine if there is a difference other than the visual.

As a cross symbolises what you just said.

 

[water]

oh water thanks but to be clear we were discussing cross versus crucifix.

Is a crucifix a reminder of Christ on the Cross? I know you just said different, but Karen and I were trying to determine if there is a difference other than the visual.

As a cross symbolises what you just said.

In my mother language, we only use one word for both cross and crucifix.

But in English : cross does not have Jesus on, but the crucifix does.

I think some protestants are ok with the cross but not with crucifix for they think it is idolatry.

With or without Jesus on the cross, I personally think of both of them representing the same meanings. With the image of Jesus on the cross, it reminds me even more of His painful death on the cross for my sin. The more I think of his image, the more it helps me to stay away from sin.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

In my mother language, we only use one word for both cross and crucifix.

But in English : cross does not have Jesus on, but the crucifix does.

I think some protestants are ok with the cross but not with crucifix for they think it is idolatry.

With or without Jesus on the cross, I personally think of both of them representing the same meanings. With the image of Jesus on the cross, it reminds me even more of His painful death on the cross for my sin. The more I think of his image, the more it helps me to stay away from sin.

Whats your mother language if its not too forward to ask?

Others have told me about the catholic religion (not catholics that Catholics have left Christ on the Cross. After this discussion Im beggining to think they did not. (what you said elsewhere about us understanding each other.)

I like what you say “with or without Jesus on the cross the meaning is the same.” I really think I agree. On a side note my sis-in-love has a lady at her church who painted a portrait of Christ on the Cross. She used (Im away from home right now so Im trying to remember) but wine vinegar linen etc for the painting and then made copies and sells them for profits for missions.

the painting is amazing so I bought one. I hadnt thought of it this way before this thread but it explains why some are slightly repulsed by it. Im looking at it in my minds eye right now and thinking about what you said. It can be a powerful reminder of things, doesnt have to be the only one but can certainly be one.