Crucifixes

[ricmat]

I can see why some early Christians used a cross instead of a crucifix - if you’re a poor peasant, you could make your own cross, but carving a corpus might be tough. It would be for me.

Also, think about this.

The cross by itself is irrevelant to our salvation. The cross didn’t save us, Christ’s passion and death saved us. The cross was merely the instrument used to kill Christ, as it was used to kill thousands of others at the time. As a simple reminder, it’s OK, especially if it’s all you have, but it’s not as complete as the crucifix, even though they might have the same meaning to different people.

In more modern terms, say, for example, that you think JFK (John F. Kennedy) was the best president the USA ever had. You want to have a reminder in your home. So would you paint a picture of JFK and hang it on the wall, or would you paint a picture of the gun that was used to kill him, and hang that on the wall?

 

[awantz]

The crucifix reminds us of Christ’s death and the cross reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

good point ricmac

something else, what if the govt outlawed religion and took away all the crosses crucifixes and burned the churches.

Would it crumble our faith if we didnt have “stuff” to worship with?

Perhaps why God Word is to be on our hearts so we dont become obsessed with the stuff.

 

[ricmat]

No, the outlawing of crucifixes and/or crosses would not cause anyone’s faith to crumble, at least no one I know.

In terms of Crucifix - Death, and Cross - Resurrection, Christ didn’t resurrect from the cross. He resurrected from the tomb. An empty tomb would be a better reminder than an empty cross, IMHO, although I do see your point.

Here’s a new thought - It wasn’t until Jesus’ ascention into Heaven that his sacrifice on the cross was “complete” as he then offered it to God the Father. This parallels the old Jewish sacrifices where the (animal) victim was killed outside the tabernacle in step 1. But the offering was not complete until the priest took the sacrifice inside the holy of holies and actually offered it to God as step 2. So the resurrection, in my own mind, was necessary step along the way to the ascention. At least, I think that’s how Scott Hahn explained it…

 

[KarenNC]

Interesting Karen I admit to still uncomfortableness on a pentagram, Id still leave it alone, its been claimed since, if God wants it back Hed have to achieve it.

I wouldn’t seriously suggest that a modern Christian use it in such a way (though the Episcopal Church in which I was married, built in the 1850s, has one in the center of the rose window). Just pointing out that symbols can change over time and it’s all about context.

 

[water]

Whats your mother language if its not too forward to ask?

Vietnamese.
The words Cross or Crucifix is called “Thanh Gia” in my language.

Others have told me about the catholic religion (not catholics that Catholics have left Christ on the Cross. After this discussion Im beggining to think they did not. (what you said elsewhere about us understanding each other.)

yes, I hadn’t known some had this thought until I came to this site; I am glad you are beginning to think it is not the case that we left Christ on the Cross. One of the members here said once that Catholic thought of Jesus always being on the Cross, but his own daughter thought of Jesus as a very loving and gentle God. In fact, we believe the same thing.

the painting is amazing so I bought one. I hadnt thought of it this way before this thread but it explains why some are slightly repulsed by it. Im looking at it in my minds eye right now and thinking about what you said. It can be a powerful reminder of things, doesnt have to be the only one but can certainly be one.

Yes, it is not about worshiping the images, but it is there to remind us something had actually happened in the past.

Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I’ve realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there…

As a picture of our loved ones, it reminds us of the moments we were with them, things that person had done for us, things that we had done together. With Jesus, although we were not with Him while He was on earth 2000 years ago, but we know that He is and always be with us in our heart, mind, and soul.
However, we are human being and God gives us a mind to visualize things; therefore, the images/statues, and alike are here for us to somehow strengthen a physical as well as spiritual connection with God and those in Heaven.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I wouldn’t seriously suggest that a modern Christian use it in such a way (though the Episcopal Church in which I was married, built in the 1850s, has one in the center of the rose window). Just pointing out that symbols can change over time and it’s all about context.

oh no problem karen and I do understand symbols do change even read waters post on how different cultures see symbols.

I was told once that in romania they do not like pictures of Christ dont know if its true or just true of some there. A friend was a missionary there.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Vietnamese.
The words Cross or Crucifix is called “Thanh Gia” in my language.

yes, I hadn’t known some had this thought until I came to this site; I am glad you are beginning to think it is not the case that we left Christ on the Cross. One of the members here said once that Catholic thought of Jesus always being on the Cross, but his own daughter thought of Jesus as a very loving and gentle God. In fact, we believe the same thing.

Thanks! Well Im convinced catholics didnt leave Jesus on the Cross and will correct those I hear say it, nicely like you

Yes, it is not about worshiping the images, but it is there to remind us something had actually happened in the past.

Depending on cultures, crucifix, statues or images can be decorated differently. I’ve realized that Hispanics decorate statues of Virgin Mary or the crucifix quite different than my Vietnamese culture. It is just purely art there…

Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Also the bible warning not to worship images.

The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

 

[water]

Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.

Also the bible warning not to worship images.

The whole topic of signs and images is touchy, while they can be good they certainly are not needed for faith. That may be why protestants avoid them.

This is one the most debated topic. I could not tell exactly how South Americans think…there are cultural differences, and that can mislead others to think differently. I would leave this part alone with no further discussion until I learn more about their culture.

I’ve learned not to jump to something so quick without learning first. To know what others think is to ask them directly, we can be mislead by learning from someone else who doesn’t even know much.

For example, my brother is going to Cambodia for 2 years. I am sure he will need to bow down to Cambodian as part of their culture. He is a protestant and I probably will ask him if he has anything against bowing down to someone or if he will think that is idolatry for bowing down to people.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Its a good thing not to jump without knowing first and to be clear I cannot think of a specific example it was long ago I heard it, just thinking of this topic in general and think it has if nothing else partly to do with the idea of catholic idolatry.

As for your brother is he bowing to a Cambodian person? If so then Ive been doing it wrong all my life. I never thought of bowing to another as idolatry. Where I live there is alot of Asian people and some amoung my friends.

I have always done the slight bow when greeting. I actually perfer it over a hand shake. Then theres tipping a hat whiich is a bit of a bow. and meeting the Queen (England) would require a bow.

I take it all as a sign of respect not worship. Now bowing to a Buddah no I would not do that. I would be respectful but not reverant.

 

[JoeyWarren]

somebody said: The crucifix reminds us of Christ’s death and the cross reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

We need a reality check here.

The Crucifix reminds us of Christ Death.

The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross.

 

[awantz]

The Empty Cross reminds us that he got taken down from the Cross by those that loved him.

The Empty Tomb is what reminds us of Christ’s resurrection.

Christ was resurrected from the Tomb.
Christ was not resurrected from the Cross.

Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Yes, but no one has created an empty tomb. So, Protestants use the empty cross instead.

Well create one then. We have. It is depicted on the Stations of the Cross as well as the Shrine that surrounds it in Jerusalem.

 

[awantz]

Well create one then. We have. It is depicted on the Stations of the Cross as well as the Shrine that surrounds it in Jerusalem.

I don’t know how to create things like that. I’m not an artist. Plus, a cross comes across more clearer to a nonchristian than a empty tomb.

 

[jack_hawkins]

from my experience Protestants inc Pentecostals wouldn’t be offended by crucifixes (although obviously they probably would by statues of Mary - I could tell you a personal anecdote there but that would be digressing), they just prefer crosses because they emphasize the resurrection over the actual crucifixion.

 

[cubalibre]

Kitty Chan Posted:
“Im thinking the worshipping images and this is observations I have had, comes from one example I have is say with a Catholic church in I dont know for sure but lets say for sake of discussion South America. The people there had their own gods and God was simply added to the mix. so they would add Jesus and Mary statues to the lot and continue to worship them. Therefore the statues while supposed to be a reminder become the worshipped.”
There may well be indigenous cultures that mix pagan and Christian images. In Cuba where I am from the Santeria religion does that. Catholic churches in South America or Cuba for that matter do not do that. I do not know why you decided to pick South America as your example. Its very offensive to Catholics to be accused of idolatry or polytheism. I know many American Catholics can be put off by the fervent worship of many Latin Americans or Catholics in Asia or Africa. But the faith is the same. Jesus is the same. If you go to a Church in Caracas, Buenos Aires, Mexico City or Havana it will be the same as it is in New York City.
Saludos, cubalibre

 

[Joe_Kelley]

How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

 

[JoeyWarren]

How many empty crosses have you seen that have nail holes and blood on them. The ones I have seen all look unused.

Have not seen one yet.

 

[awantz]

from my experience Protestants inc Pentecostals wouldn’t be offended by crucifixes (although obviously they probably would by statues of Mary - I could tell you a personal anecdote there but that would be digressing), they just prefer crosses because they emphasize the resurrection over the actual crucifixion.

I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

 

[JoeyWarren]

I think the reason why Protestants want to emphasize the resurrection over the crucifixion is, because anyone can be crucified, but not everyone can be resurrected like Christ was. The resurrection is kinda like proff that Jesus is God and that makes the crucifiction alot more meaningful. If it was anyone else on that cross what bgood would that do us? NONE

My stepmother taught Sunday School when I was young. She said that the Crucifix was created to mock the christians. And she said that the peace symbol was another Catholic invention to mock the cross.