Crucifixion on Wednesday?

[cfrancis]

Cal, thank you for your reply; I admit I was looking for a format similar to the one benedictus2 put forth. I went through all your posts and put together what I believe to be what you are saying. I would like to know if what I have below accurately presents your position:

Wednesday
Tuesday 6PM (the beginning of Wednesday) = Last Supper
Wednessday ~9AM = crucifixion
Wednesday ~3PM = death of our Savior
Wednesday before 6PM = entombment

Thursday, Nt 1, Day 1
Wednesday 6PM to daybreak Thursday = 1st NT
Wednesday 6PM to Thursday 6PM = 1st Day

Friday, Nt 2 Day 2
Thursday 6Pm to daybreak Friday = 2nd NT
Thursday 6PM to Friday 6PM = 2nd Day

Saturday, Nt 3 Day 3
Friday 6PM to daybreak Saturday = 3rd NT
Friday 6PM to Saturday 6PM = 3rd Day

Sunday Nt 4 Day 4
Saturday 6PM to Sunday daybreak = 4th NT
Saturday 6PM to Sunday 6PM = 4th Day
Christ rose some time after Saturday 6PM and before daybreak Sunday

That’s pretty much it except for the part about Sunday. The “Sunday Day” doesn’t start until sunrise and Scripture would seem to tell us that Christ arose prior or at the end of the Sabbath which would have been sunset Saturday or about 6 pm. After all we are told that He arose “after” the third day and “on” the third day so it must have been right at the time of the ending and beginning of the change from Saturday to Sunday.

Cal, I’ve been going over this and I can’t seem to make your comments square with Scripture.
You stated:

To accept that theory would be to say that Jesus did not tell the truth. You can’t get three days and three nights out of Friday night to Saturday night.

Christ was crucified on Wednesday evening about the 9th hour of the day I believe and that would have been 3 PM. He was placed in the tomb after the Sabbath started on Wednesday after 6 pm and that was the beginning of the first night. 6 pm Wednesday to 6 pm Thursday was the first night and the first day. Then from 6 pm Thursday to 6 pm Friday was the second night and the second day. The third night started at 6 pm on Friday and the third day ended at 6 pm on Saturday. Sometime between then and daylight he was gone from the tomb as Scripture tells us it was still dark when the women arrived to find him gone.

That is three nights and three days in the tomb. He arose the first day of the week which started at 6 pm on Saturday evening as we would count it.

Further, you stated:

If He was not in the ground for a full three days and three nights, then the only sign of His authority as Messiah would have failed miserably. You just can’t fit three days and three nights into the Friday evening to Saturday night time period…
…
…So He could have arisen anytime between 6 pm Saturday night(or actually the end of Saturday day—we must remember that Saturday started at 6 pm on Friday and ended at 6 pm on Saturday as we count the days) and dawn on Sunday morning.
…
You can’t say that “three days” or the “third day” meant parts of three days. That doesn’t mean Friday night, all day Saturday and Sunday morning. It was a Hebrew idiom to mean any part of three days, that’s true as a common way of reckoning, just as years are when you say how old you are. I could say that I will leave late this evening about 5 pm and arrive back the day after tomorrow at 8 am and be gone three days. But to the Jews, when the number of “nights” is stated in addition to the number of days, then the expression is no longer just an idiom. It is a literal statement of fact. Three days and three nights is three days and three nights. It is simply not possible to fit three days and three nights into Friday evening to Sunday morning. Jesus Christ Himself made the statement about how long He would be in the tomb, and He is the correct one, not us.

Finally, you stated:

Actually Jesus said He would be in the earth for three nights and three days. He didn’t leave any question whether it would be only part of a day.

I provide all this to make sure your position is Christ was in the tomb for 3 nights, 3 full days; you have affirmed this is your position.

Your position excludes a resurrection “on the third day” and can only lead to a resurrection on the 4th day: sometime between 6PM Saturday and 6AM Sunday.

Even if we give an entombment time of, say, 5:58PM on Wednesday, and we go three full nights and days - 3 full 24-hour periods - that takes us to 5:58PM on Saturday. Following your position, Christ then could have risen at 5:59PM Saturday.

By the calendar, this could be seen as “the third day” from Wednesday (not counting Wednesday). Yet, by the hours, it is past the three full 24-hour periods, and is technically the 4th day.

Of course, the above presents problems for your position. If we accept the Saturday 5:59PM resurrection as the 3rd day, then you’ve contradicted yourself by counting days - or parts of days, in this case, the last minute of Saturday. If you allow for this, you must then allow for those who accept a Friday crucifixion to count parts of days, a position you’ve already denied.
(cont on next post)

 

[cfrancis]

(cont from above)

From Scripture, the resurrection of Christ on the 3rd day is clearly recorded:
Matthew 16:21
Jesus Foretells His Death ] From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
Matthew 17:22-23
22 And while they were gathering together in Galilee, Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men;
23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day.” And they were deeply grieved.
Matthew 20:18-19
18 “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death,
19 and will hand Him over to the Gentiles to mock and scourge and crucify Him, and on the third day He will be raised up.”
Luke 9:22
saying, " The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed and be raised up on the third day."
Luke 18:32-33
32 “For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon,
33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.”
Luke 24:6-7
6 “He is not here, but He has risen Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
7 saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.”
Luke 24:46
and He said to them, " Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
Mark 9:31
For He was teaching His disciples and telling them, " The Son of Man is to be delivered into the hands of men, and they will kill Him; and when He has been killed, He will rise three days later."
Mark 10:34
“They will mock Him and spit on Him, and scourge Him and kill Him, and three days later He will rise again.”
1 Corinthians 15:4
and that He was buried,** and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures**,
Acts 10:40
" **God raised Him up on the third day **and granted that He become visible,

There are two examples of “after the third day”:
Matthew 27:62-64
62 Now on the next day, the day after the preparation, the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered together with Pilate,
63 and said, "Sir, we remember that when He was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I am to rise again.’
64 “Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day, otherwise His disciples may come and steal Him away and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead,’ and the last deception will be worse than the first.”
Mark 8:31
And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and the chief priests and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.
What’s interesting about these is:

1. in Matthew, the Pharisees are speaking, and they quote Jesus; yet we see that Jesus never said in Scripture “'After three days I am to rise again.”
2. in Mark, this is narrative, not a direct quote. Again, we see Jesus did not say in Scripture that He would rise after three days.

Each quote from Christ re: His resurrection has it occurring on the third day, not the fourth.

 

[cfrancis]

Wow…this thread went silent quite suddenly…

 

[Old_Scholar]

Wow…this thread went silent quite suddenly…

Just busy—busy—busy…

You keep discounting my belief that Christ was in the tomb for three days and three nights but **you never explain could have been accomplished from Friday to the end of the Sabbath on Saturday. ** I would love to see that explanation.

You use Matthew 16:21 to show that Christ arose on the third day. Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset and that fits perfectly with my chronology of Saturday being the third day. The word used here for “day” is “hemera” and that is defined as: the interval between sunrise and sunset. Check the word for yourself. That excludes Sunday as we are plainly told it was still dark when the women got to the tomb.

The same word is used in Matthew 17:23 as well. Ditto for Matthew 20:19. ** In fact in all the Scriptures you quoted, the same word, “hemera” is used and that alone excludes a Sunday for the resurrection.**

I don’t understand why there are so many attempts to change the meaning of the Scriptures. This needs to be followed all the way through from when Christ went to Bethany.

We have Christ’s own words saying He would be in the belly of the earth for three days and three nights and the only way that is possible is if He was placed in the tomb on Wednesday just prior to the Sabbath that began at sunset at the end of Wednesday. When the women came to the tomb, **Christ was already gone and it was still dark. ** We have no Scripture that says Christ arose on Sunday or “the first day of the week.” We only have the empty tomb.

We may never know exactly when Christ arose but we certainly have many Scriptures that indicate it had to be crucifixion on Wednesday and burial and arising, as He said, “After three days and three nights.”

You seem to forget that Christ said **it would be a sign **that He was the Messiah and **spelled it out exactly what would happen. ** Then in Mark 8:31-32 we read: “And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. 32) And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him”

I don’t have problems with celebrating the resurrection of Christ as we do but I don’t think reasonable people should attempt to change what Scripture tells us about it either. Even if it had been on Friday and resurrected on Sunday, the dates would change each year, placing the resurrection on other days. The women went to the tomb on the first day of the week before daybreak on that particular year. We know, by Scriptures, that the date of the crucifixion was the 14th day of Nisan and that changes each year because we don’t use the same calendar.

Please give some reasonable explanation how to get three days and three nights out of a Friday to Sunday before dawn dating…

 

[cfrancis]

Thanks Cal; I wasn’t just speaking of you, though
Look Cal, I’m not advocating the traditional Good Friday crucifixion; the aim of this post is to try to figure out just what you’re advocating. For the record, I believe you are a man who loves Christ and you are sincere in your beliefs; I also believe you have a strong bias against anything Catholic, whether that “anything” is actually true and correct. Going back through your posts, I believe this bias is what has blurred your position.

In your most recent post, you stated:

Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset and that fits perfectly with my chronology of Saturday being the third day. The word used here for “day” is “hemera” and that is defined as: the interval between sunrise and sunset. Check the word for yourself. That excludes Sunday as we are plainly told it was still dark when the women got to the tomb.

The word “hemera” is the word used for “day” in the NT (except for phrases such as “this day” - Mt 6:11; 11:23; 27:8; 28:15 -where “semeron”).

• Strong’s entry: 2250. hemera *hay-mer’-ah *feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. **(literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours **(but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):–age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
• There is noting extraordinary or special about its use in the verses I provided. Nothing in those verses leads us to believe the word was limited to the period b/n dawn and dark.
  The verses clearly show that when Christ spoke, He said He would rise again on the third day.
• The two occurrences of “after the third day” are not Christ’s words; that is, if you were to read a “red-letter” Bible, those words would not be in red.
• You state “Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset” yet this is in contradiction to your early posts where you state clearly that days were counted from the previous sunset:

He arose the first day of the week which started at 6 pm on Saturday evening as we would count it.

So He could have arisen anytime between 6 pm Saturday night(or actually the end of Saturday day—**we must remember that Saturday started at 6 pm on Friday and ended at 6 pm on Saturday **as we count the days) and dawn on Sunday morning.

The meal was eaten at the beginning of the preparation day remembering that the day started at 6 pm on Tuesday.

There has been ample evidence in this thread already to show where Jesus had to die on Wednesday and buried prior to the special Sabbath **on Thursday which began at sunset or 6 pm Wednesday night **

He wasn’t placed into the tomb, as you know, until just prior to the high Sabbath which would have started at sunset on Wednesday evening as we count time.

Wednesday night, which began at sunset or about 6 pm…The weekly Sabbath began at sunset Friday(the beginning of Saturday night) and ended at sunset on Saturday evening, the beginning of Sunday night…We know from Genesis that God counts a day as “the night and then the day” was the first day. “The night and the day” was the second day, etc.

Scripture would seem to tell us that Christ arose prior or at the end of the Sabbath which would have been sunset Saturday or about 6 pm.

He died at precisely 3 pm and was placed in the tomb** just prior to the “High Day” began at sunset**.

 

[cfrancis]

The next issue is your insistence that “day” means a whole day and not part of a day.

• Your position of a Wednesday entombment, prior to 6PM which is the beginning of the next day coupled with your insistence of 3 whole days and three whole nights (especially if we now accept your counting of sunrise to sunset to be 1 day, which means sunset to sunrise is 1 night) makes resurrection after 6PM on Saturday (and thus Sunday) on the 4th day.
  Your own words tell us the third day went until 6PM Saturday:

The third night started at 6 pm on Friday and the third day ended at 6 pm on Saturday.

• If you say Christ arose before 6PM Saturday (that is, before Sunday) then you are counting whatever time remained on Saturday as a “day”, which contradicts your own words re: parts of days:

. If He was not in the ground for a full three days and three nights, then the only sign of His authority as Messiah would have failed miserably… You can’t say that “three days” or the “third day” meant parts of three days

You can’t count the time prior to sunset or 6 pm as the first day. That’s ridiculous.

Actually Jesus said He would be in the earth for three nights and three days. He didn’t leave any question whether it would be only part of a day.

He said three days and three nights. He didn’t say part of three days and part of three nights. He wasn’t using a Hebrew idiom, He was giving a sign—a very important sign.

You do provide an interesting exception to counting days sunset to sunset. It appears in this post you are attempting now to fit “on the third day” being Sunday into your Wednesday crucifixion position:

But perhaps it would be better to count backward from when the women went to the tomb…So we know that sometime prior to their arrival Christ had arisen. This would have been on the third day or we would call it Sunday morning but as the Jews reckoned, the time period from the ending of the Sabbath at 6 pm to 6 am was the third “night.” We know the day as Sunday however and we would say he arose Sunday before daybreak.…So Saturday at daybreak would have been 6 am and would make one day to us.
From Saturday daybreak to Friday daybreak would make the second day to us…Of course that makes daybreak Friday to daybreak Thursday the first day.

Let’s plot this out, based on the criteria you provide in this post:
WED sunset to THUR sunrise = 1st night
THUR sunrise to THUR sunset = 1st day
THUR sunset to FRI sunrise = 2nd night
FRI sunrise to FRI sunset = 2nd day
FRI sunset to SAT sunrise = 3rd night
SAT sunrise to SAT sunset = 3rd day
SAT sunset to SUN sunrise = 4th night

By this reckoning, Christ had 4 nights in the tomb. Even by your reckoning using sunrise to sunrise, Christ rose on the 4th day:
WED sunset to THUR sunset = 1st day
THUR sunset to FRI sunset = 2nd day
FRI sunset to SAT sunset = 3rd night
SAT sunset began the 4th day.

If you place the resurrection before sunset on Saturday, you go against your statements re: Christ needing 3 whole days and nights, not parts of days or night (see above for quotes).

 

[cfrancis]

This leads us to your reckoning the resurrection. Your first post, the first reply to the OP stated:

Christ was entombed on Wednesday night(or Thursday early according to the Jewish calendar) and arose Saturday night right after the weekly Sabbath.

This is, by your position, a resurrection on the 4th day.

The third night started at 6 pm on Friday and** the third day ended at 6 pm on Saturday.
Sometime between then and daylight he was gone from the tomb **as Scripture tells us it was still dark when the women arrived to find him gone.
That is three nights and three days in the tomb. He arose the first day of the week which started at 6 pm on Saturday evening as we would count it.

This is still a resurrection on the 4th day.

So He could have arisen anytime between 6 pm Saturday night(or actually the end of Saturday day—we must remember that Saturday started at 6 pm on Friday and ended at 6 pm on Saturday as we count the days) and dawn on Sunday morning.

Here is a modification to your position: the possibility of a pre-Sunday resurrection, a resurrection at “the end of Saturday day.” But we’ve seen this contradicts with your requirement for three full days and three full nights.

We know Jesus arose between 5 and 6 am an Sunday. I believe Scripture says: “at daybreak.” That would be almost 6 am or right at 6 am

We’re back to a Sunday resurrection, which is the 4th day.

…Let us look at this another way in order to get Christ arising on the third day.

OK, here begins the attempt to get Sunday and “third day” to mesh with your position.

“When the Sabbath was over . . . very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb . . . But when they looked up they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.” And they were told, “He has risen” (Mark 16:1-6). So we know that sometime prior to their arrival Christ had arisen. This would have been on the third day or we would call it Sunday morning but as the Jews reckoned, the time period from the ending of the Sabbath at 6 pm to 6 am was the third “night.” We know the day as Sunday however and we would say he arose Sunday before daybreak.

OK, your position is now Christ rose on the third day, Sunday, after 6PM Saturday (so it can be Sunday) and before 6AM Sunday.

He arose prior to daybreak on Sunday and we don’t know at what time he arose but he was gone when the women got there. So in order to fulfill His prophecy, he had to have been raised prior to the end of Saturday on the third day.

You now go back to the resurrection at the end of Satruday, before Sunday begins at 6PM. By your position, this is **part of the third day being counted as the third day, which, as we’ve seen by your words in the previous posts is a position you do not hold.

We aren’t told exactly when he arose. If you want to believe He arose on the third day, then He must have arose about sunset on Saturday. If you want to believe He arose “after” the third day, He could have arisen anytime after sunset on Saturday. Fact is we don’t know, Scripture doesn’t tell us but we know Christ said that the sign He would give would be that He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. We know from Genesis that God counts a day as “the night and then the day” was the first day. “The night and the day” was the second day, etc

.Now you appear to take no position at all, except for your words “He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights” and your previous statements re: this meaning not parts of days or nights, but full days and nights.

Scripture would seem to tell us that Christ arose prior or at the end of the Sabbath which would have been sunset Saturday or about 6 pm. After all we are told that He arose “after” the third day and “on” the third day so it must have been right at the time of the ending and beginning of the change from Saturday to Sunday

It appears you want to hold the position that Christ arose right at the change to Sunday. I guess in our time, that would be at 12:00:00 Saturday night/Sunday morning.

The resurrection was either at the end of the third day or “after” the third day as Scripture tells us. I would say it had to be at approximately the ending of the Sabbath.

Here, we’re back to a Saturday resurrection, which is the third day in your position, but counts part of a day as a day, a position you’ve rejected.**

 

[SeanTom]

For the Jewish people, Friday began with sundown on Thursday, Saturday begain on sundown on Friday, Sunday began on sundown on Saturday . From this it appears that Jesus was dead for three days. From what I could gather, Jesus was then resurreccted on Sunday, after sundown. This would account for the words, “on the third day he arose from the dead”.

I hope I got this right. It probably could be stated better by someone more in the know than I am.

 

[Robbinson]

You use Matthew 16:21 to show that Christ arose on the third day. Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset and that fits perfectly with my chronology of Saturday being the third day. The word used here for “day” is “hemera” and that is defined as: the interval between sunrise and sunset. Check the word for yourself. That excludes Sunday as we are plainly told it was still dark when the women got to the tomb.

I did check it - and you were only partially correct and, as seen below in this authoritative definition (well regarded scholarly source - actually cited to me through a leading Protestant resource), strikingly, it makes my earlier point when used as the ancient Hebrew/Greek speakers used this term:

“2250 ἡμέρα [hemera /hay·mer·ah/] n f. From (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; TDNT 2:943; TDNTA 309; GK 2465; 389 occurrences; AV translates as “day” 355 times, “daily + 2596” 15 times, “time” three times, not translated twice, and translated miscellaneously 14 times. 1 the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night. 1a in the daytime. 1b metaph., “the day” is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness. 2 of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night). 2a Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression “three days and three nights” does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days. 3 of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom. 4 used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.”
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996

 

[Old_Scholar]

Thanks Cal; I wasn’t just speaking of you, though
Look Cal, I’m not advocating the traditional Good Friday crucifixion; the aim of this post is to try to figure out just what you’re advocating. For the record, I believe you are a man who loves Christ and you are sincere in your beliefs; I also believe you have a strong bias against anything Catholic, whether that “anything” is actually true and correct. Going back through your posts, I believe this bias is what has blurred your position.

In your most recent post, you stated:
The word “hemera” is the word used for “day” in the NT (except for phrases such as “this day” - Mt 6:11; 11:23; 27:8; 28:15 -where “semeron”).

• Strong’s entry: 2250. hemera *hay-mer’-ah *feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. **(literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours **(but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):–age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
• There is noting extraordinary or special about its use in the verses I provided. Nothing in those verses leads us to believe the word was limited to the period b/n dawn and dark.
  The verses clearly show that when Christ spoke, He said He would rise again on the third day.
• The two occurrences of “after the third day” are not Christ’s words; that is, if you were to read a “red-letter” Bible, those words would not be in red.
• You state “Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset” yet this is in contradiction to your early posts where you state clearly that days were counted from the previous sunset:

You are still skirting the issue. We all know that “day” refers to a 24 hour period—however, the “day” is split up into “day” and “night” as we all know

 

[Robbinson]

You are still skirting the issue. We all know that “day” refers to a 24 hour period—however, the “day” is split up into “day” and “night” as we all know

Hi Old Scholar - why did you ignore the immediately preceding post (reply) which is directly on point on the “3 days and 3 nights” issue and resolves it, per the point I made much earlier in this thread (and reiterated by others)?

It seems your entire thinking on this is colored by the “three days and three nights” language which you are misinterpreting based upon a western lens -rather than attempting to understand how the authors would have understood those words (as now supported by the Strongs definition of hermeras).

Blessings,

Brian

 

[Old_Scholar]

Thanks Cal; I wasn’t just speaking of you, though
Look Cal, I’m not advocating the traditional Good Friday crucifixion; the aim of this post is to try to figure out just what you’re advocating. For the record, I believe you are a man who loves Christ and you are sincere in your beliefs; I also believe you have a strong bias against anything Catholic, whether that “anything” is actually true and correct. Going back through your posts, I believe this bias is what has blurred your position.

In your most recent post, you stated:
The word “hemera” is the word used for “day” in the NT (except for phrases such as “this day” - Mt 6:11; 11:23; 27:8; 28:15 -where “semeron”).

• Strong’s entry: 2250. hemera *hay-mer’-ah *feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. **(literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours **(but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):–age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.
• There is noting extraordinary or special about its use in the verses I provided. Nothing in those verses leads us to believe the word was limited to the period b/n dawn and dark.
  The verses clearly show that when Christ spoke, He said He would rise again on the third day.
• The two occurrences of “after the third day” are not Christ’s words; that is, if you were to read a “red-letter” Bible, those words would not be in red.
• You state “Remember that the day was counted from sunrise to sunset” yet this is in contradiction to your early posts where you state clearly that days were counted from the previous sunset:

The definition of a day, for the purposes of a calendar, even in those times, was a complete day that consisted of a day and night. There is a “day” period of a day and a 'night" period of a day. The ways the Jews termed it was at sunset, the night started; then at sunrise the day began and twilight was the period of time approaching sunset.

Anything that happens during a day or night has to take a period of time. It isn’t correct to say that if you take 5 minutes out of a day, it isn’t a “complete” day. By the same token, you can’t take only 5 minutes of a day and count it as a full day, no matter how hard one tries.

 

[Old_Scholar]

This leads us to your reckoning the resurrection. Your first post, the first reply to the OP stated:
This is, by your position, a resurrection on the 4th day.This is still a resurrection on the 4th day.Here is a modification to your position: the possibility of a pre-Sunday resurrection, a resurrection at “the end of Saturday day.” But we’ve seen this contradicts with your requirement for three full days and three full nights.We’re back to a Sunday resurrection, which is the 4th day.OK, here begins the attempt to get Sunday and “third day” to mesh with your position.OK, your position is now Christ rose on the third day, Sunday, after 6PM Saturday (so it can be Sunday) and before 6AM Sunday.You now go back to the resurrection at the end of Satruday, before Sunday begins at 6PM. By your position, this is part of the third day being counted as the third day, which, as we’ve seen by your words in the previous posts is a position you do not hold.Now you appear to take no position at all, except for your words “He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights” and your previous statements re: this meaning not parts of days or nights, but full days and nights.It appears you want to hold the position that Christ arose right at the change to Sunday. I guess in our time, that would be at 12:00:00 Saturday night/Sunday morning.Here, we’re back to a Saturday resurrection, which is the third day in your position, but counts part of a day as a day, a position you’ve rejected.

Chris, you’re “splititing hairs” and you usually make a better argument than that!

 

[Old_Scholar]

Hi Old Scholar - why did you ignore the immediately preceding post (reply) which is directly on point on the “3 days and 3 nights” issue and resolves it, per the point I made much earlier in this thread (and reiterated by others)?

It seems your entire thinking on this is colored by the “three days and three nights” language which you are misinterpreting based upon a western lens -rather than attempting to understand how the authors would have understood those words (as now supported by the Strongs definition of hermeras).

Blessings,

Brian

This quote came directly from your posting:

1 the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night. 1a in the daytime.

I don’t think anything has been “resolved” yet and we won’t resolve it here. This has been a big subject of debate for 2,000years. How could we resolve it here?

 

[Alindawyl]

You are still skirting the issue. We all know that “day” refers to a 24 hour period—however, the “day” is split up into “day” and “night” as we all know

But the books of the Bible were not written by modern authors using modern language. Different manners of speaking were used in different times and cultures. Examine the explanation given on this page for the manner of speaking used “back in the day”, not just for the New Testament but the books of the Old Testament as well.

 

[Robbinson]

This quote came directly from your posting:

I don’t think anything has been “resolved” yet and we won’t resolve it here. This has been a big subject of debate for 2,000years. How could we resolve it here?

This is the first time I think you are being disingenuous - you know that the revelant part of my post was pointing out the alternative definition described in Strongs as directly relevant here - the word as used and understood those who wrote them. In fact, I underlined it for you in my prior post:

Here is again - from Strongs:

"Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression “three days and three nights” does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days."

You could just say you disagree with Strongs (I wish you had) - but to ignore it and post a reply suggesting (to other readers who might not go back through the thread) that I merely referred you to a definition supporting your view of sunset to sunset is not helpful in a Christian debate, mutually looking for truth.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cfrancis]

Chris, you’re “splititing hairs” and you usually make a better argument than that!

I’m not splitting hairs, Cal. I used your words from your posts, and tried to follow your reasoning.

What I am doing is trying to get you to actually state your position, in full.

You appear set on Christ’s crucifxion on Wednesday 3PM, and His entombment before sunset Wednesday (that is, before the end of Wednesday as reckoned by the Jews).

Where you hesitate, falter, hedge, is the Resurrection.

• Did Christ rise on Sunday (between Sat sunset and Sun sunrise)?
• Did Christ rise on Saturday (before Saturday sunset)?

 

[Old_Scholar]

This is the first time I think you are being disingenuous - you know that the revelant part of my post was pointing out the alternative definition described in Strongs as directly relevant here - the word as used and understood those who wrote them. In fact, I underlined it for you in my prior post:

Here is again - from Strongs:

"Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression “three days and three nights” does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days."

You could just say you disagree with Strongs (I wish you had) - but to ignore it and post a reply suggesting (to other readers who might not go back through the thread) that I merely referred you to a definition supporting your view of sunset to sunset is not helpful in a Christian debate, mutually looking for truth.

Blessings,

Brian

I’m sorry you believe I am being disengenous but the quote I gave came directly from your post of Strong’s definitions. Here it is again as you posted it:

“2250 ἡμέρα [hemera /hay·mer·ah/] n f. From (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit, akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; TDNT 2:943; TDNTA 309; GK 2465; 389 occurrences; AV translates as “day” 355 times, “daily + 2596” 15 times, “time” three times, not translated twice, and translated miscellaneously 14 times. 1 the day, used of the natural day, or the interval between sunrise and sunset, as distinguished from and contrasted with the night. 1a in the daytime. 1b metaph., “the day” is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness. 2 of the civil day, or the space of twenty four hours (thus including the night). 2a Eastern usage of this term differs from our western usage. Any part of a day is counted as a whole day, hence the expression “three days and three nights” does not mean literally three whole days, but at least one whole day plus part of two other days. 3 of the last day of this present age, the day Christ will return from heaven, raise the dead, hold the final judgment, and perfect his kingdom. 4 used of time in general, i.e. the days of his life.”
Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996

Again I have enhanced the part I quoted and this is the entire piece from your post. Notice that the part I quoted is from the #1 definition listed, which is usually the most accepted.

But the point is: You still can’t get any part of three nights from Friday sunset to “prior to daybreak” with a Friday crucifixion and Sunday, before daybreak, resurrection.

 

[Old_Scholar]

But the books of the Bible were not written by modern authors using modern language. Different manners of speaking were used in different times and cultures. Examine the explanation given on this page for the manner of speaking used “back in the day”, not just for the New Testament but the books of the Old Testament as well.

Then perhaps you can list part of three days and part of three nights from Friday sunset to prior to daybreak on Sunday???

 

[Old_Scholar]

I’m not splitting hairs, Cal. I used your words from your posts, and tried to follow your reasoning.

What I am doing is trying to get you to actually state your position, in full.

You appear set on Christ’s crucifxion on Wednesday 3PM, and His entombment before sunset Wednesday (that is, before the end of Wednesday as reckoned by the Jews).

Where you hesitate, falter, hedge, is the Resurrection.

• Did Christ rise on Sunday (between Sat sunset and Sun sunrise)?
• Did Christ rise on Saturday (before Saturday sunset)?

Chris,

I have stated my position here several times already. Why are you not answering my request to explain how Christ could have been placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and resurrected prior to daybreak on Sunday and still fit the “three days and three nights” that He told us about?