Crucifixion on Wednesday?

[Old_Scholar]

Chris,

I wanted to comment on this statement you made sometime back but got sidetracked.

You wrote:

Look Cal, I’m not advocating the traditional Good Friday crucifixion; the aim of this post is to try to figure out just what you’re advocating. For the record, I believe you are a man who loves Christ and you are sincere in your beliefs; I also believe you have a strong bias against anything Catholic, whether that “anything” is actually true and correct. Going back through your posts, I believe this bias is what has blurred your position.

I believe you actually know better but I do not have any “bias” against anything Catholic as you stated.

Any Catholic who believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and believes that Christ came to earth and died for our sins and it is by His grace that we are saved is a Christian and belongs to the same church I do. Scripture teaches that there is only one Christian Church and Christ is the Head. Scripture also teaches that all believers are members of the body of this church.

What I disagree with many Roman Catholics about is: the papacy, the marian doctrines and any dogma or doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture. There is no bias, just that I believe everything we need is in Scripture and nothing should be added. I believe exactly what the Catholic Church believed for the first four centuries.

I wich you would not state what I believe unless you know it to be true.

 

[cfrancis]

Chris,I wanted to comment on this statement you made sometime back but got sidetracked.

You wrote:

I believe you actually know better but I do not have any “bias” against anything Catholic as you stated.

Any Catholic who believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour and believes that Christ came to earth and died for our sins and it is by His grace that we are saved is a Christian and belongs to the same church I do. Scripture teaches that there is only one Christian Church and Christ is the Head. Scripture also teaches that all believers are members of the body of this church.

On this point, I owe you an apology, and heartily offer mine to you.

What I disagree with many Roman Catholics about is: the papacy, the marian doctrines and any dogma or doctrine that cannot be supported by Scripture. There is no bias, just that I believe everything we need is in Scripture and nothing should be added. I believe exactly what the Catholic Church believed for the first four centuries.
I wich you would not state what I believe unless you know it to be true.

On this point, I hold my ground, as the issue is with your interpretation of Scripture and your selective view of Church history in the first 4 centuries. Even when Scripture and history clearly support Catholic teaching, you do not relent. YOu and I have been down this road; we will remain at odds here.

Now, for the topic at hand:

Chris,

I have stated my position here several times already. Why are you not answering my request to explain how Christ could have been placed in the tomb at sunset on Friday and resurrected prior to daybreak on Sunday and still fit the “three days and three nights” that He told us about?

I notice how you nicely avoid answering the question I posed. I showed in this post, by your own words, your position on the resurrection is not clear.
So, you can answer the question:
**- Did Christ rise on Sunday (between Sat sunset and Sun sunrise)?

or

• Did Christ rise on Saturday (before Saturday sunset)?**

 

[nestacal]

In Matthew, Chapter 26 It states that in two days time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.

In Mark Chapter 14 It states that The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were to take place in two days time…

In Luke Chapter 22 It states that the feast of Unleavened Bread called the Passover, was drawing near…

In John Chapter 13 It states Before the feast of Passover…

We have been celebrating Holy Thursday night since I was a child. On Good Friday, we always celebrated Our Dear Lord dying on the cross. The buriel took place soon after because it was going to be their Holiest of Holies in the Jewish church, and the terrible earthquakes, which caused the Temple to crumble and the bodies of the dead rise, must have been quite a sight!

During our lives I have seen utterly fantastic things. I have seen things on the Television utterly miracles, happening like that United Airlines on Thursday being downed by the birds but every Man, Woman, and Child, were saved by Almighty God. I have seen, Saint Padre Pio when He came to Los Angeles one time during the early 60’s, I even got to shake Senator Jack Kennedy’s hand when he came into L.A., for the Democratic Convention.

How come you are having a hard time reading the bible? Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and then on the morning of Easter Sunday Jesus Christ had arisen from the dead.

 

[Alindawyl]

Then perhaps you can list part of three days and part of three nights from Friday sunset to prior to daybreak on Sunday???

Jesus was crucified and died on Friday before sunset. He had to be placed in the tomb before sunset to avoid doing any work on the sabbath. Any part of a day is a day, so that’s the first day.

Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday is the second day. This is the only “full” day.

Jesus rose from the dead some time after sunset Saturday and before the arrival of those at the tomb Sunday morning. Any part of a day is a day, so that’s the third day.

Short, sweet, and simple.

If you wish to apply a strict 24 hour and nothing less meaning to days for calculating the death and resurrection of Jesus, then you are claiming that that’s how Jews talked and wrote about “days” back then. Let us apply the same reasoning to other verses of Scripture which mention days and/or days and nights, as the author of the piece at that link did:

Genesis 7:12 and Genesis 7:17. “Forty days and forty nights” and “forty days” are used interchangeably.

Genesis 42:17-18. His brothers were locked up for three days, yet Joseph came to them and released them ON the third day.

1 Samuel 30:12-13. “Three days and three nights” and “three days ago” are used interchangeably.

2 Chronicles 10:5 and 2 Chronicles 10:12. King Rehoboam ordered Jeroboam and the people to return “in three days” which they understood to mean “on” the third day".

Esther 4:16 and Esther 5:1. The fasting is ordered for three days, night and day, yet Ester presents herself to King Xerxes ON the third day.

And just so you don’t claim there’s something different between how they talked about time in the Old Testament and New Testament, Matthew 27:63-64. “After three days” and “until the third day” are used interchangeably.

These verses all conflict with each other if you wish to force every use of “day” to be a full 24 hours. They do not conflict at all if read with the same understanding as the people at the time they were written:

1. “day” means ANY part of the 24 hour period from one sunset to the next consecutive sunset
2. “day and night” and “day” are interchangeable
3. “in three days” and “on the third day” are interchangeable
4. “after three days” and “until the third day” are interchangeable

The message of the books of the Bible is just as applicable today as it was 2000 or more years ago, but the words were written by the hands and minds of people far removed from our present time. Which is why it’s important to always be aware of context, author, audience, and culture when reading any ancient manuscript, the Bible included. Otherwise you get bogged down in the details and lose track of the message.

 

[benedictus2]

**Dear Old Scholar, **

I would like to ask you to please read this post thoroughly.

You are incorrect. The meal eaten on Preparation Day was what we would call “The Last Supper,” but was the Passover Supper.

You are not quite correct here as it would depend on which account you go by. In John’s gospel the meal eaten was not the Passover meal or Seder. However, in Mark, Matthew and Luke, the meal eaten WAS the Passover Meal, the Seder. Since there are 3 gospel writers saying that it was the Passover super, then I am going with Mark, Matthew and Luke and you should too because your entire argument hinges entirely on the “3 days and 3 nights in Matthew”

Please read the 23rd chapter of Leviticus and you will see how the Festival lasted for several days.

The first day of Unleavened Bread was the day after the Passover which would have been the 15th of Nisan and this feast lasted for several days. The first day was a Holy Day and then the seventh day was a Holy Day.

I have read Leviticus 23 but you, I think, failed to read my post 61 properly where I even gave you the dates of the Passover from 15 to 21 Nissan. Note that Preparation Day is 14 Nissan BEFORE the Passover meal. This is when the Jews remove all leaven from the house in preparation for the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Here again is a chronology of a Wed Crucifixion based on your contention that the meal was NOT a Passover meal.

Tues 6pm 14 Nissan – Preparation Day – Last Supper but not Passover meal.
Wed 3 PM 14 Nissan – Crucifixion and Burial
Wed 6PM – Thur6PM 15 Nissan – Feast of Unleavened Bread – High Sabbath.
Thur 6pm-Fri 6pm - 16 Nissan – 2nd Day of Passover
Fri 6pm- Sat 6pm – 17 Nissan - Sabbath and 3rd Day of Passover
Sat 6-pm – Sun 6pm – 18 Nissan – Sunday – 1st day of the week, women come to anoint Jesus.

All 4 gospels say that Jesus died on preparation day, or day before a sabbath which is why the women could not annoint him. You say that, this sabbath was in actual fact the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Problem is, all 4 gospels also mention that the sabbath they allowed to pass COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN THE WEEKDAY SABBATH because they went to the tomb on the first day of the week.

John 20:1 reads” On the first day of the week Mary of Magdala came into the tomb…

Matthew 28:1 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, 2 Mary Magdalene …
Mark 16:1-2 When the sabbath was over, …Very early when the sun had risen, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb.
Luke: 20:1 But at daybreak on the first day of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

If this is so, **the women would have allowed 3 days to pass before deciding to anoint the body of the Lord. **

Remember what they said about Lazarus, that having been in the tomb for 3 days he would already smell and that is why Martha and Mary did not want to open the tomb.

The three days and three nights were the word of Jesus Himself and I can’t see how you can “toss it aside” so easily. Scripture even tells us what Christ did during that three days and three nights. If we neglect the teaching of God’s word, then we place it beneath the traditions of men so criticized by Christ in Mark 7:8-9

But it is you who are tossing aside Christ’s words. He said that he will rise again on the third day. People have shown you that a Wed crucifixion meant Christ rose on the 4th day. We are not neglecting God’s word. You on the other hand keep glossing over facts that are in the Gospels themselves.

You failed to address my point that the synoptic Gospels have a different account to John.

I am asking you to take apart the points I raised above, POINT BY POINT, so that we can at least move forward.

 

[Old_Scholar]

**Dear Old Scholar, **

I would like to ask you to please read this post thoroughly.

You are not quite correct here as it would depend on which account you go by. In John’s gospel the meal eaten was not the Passover meal or Seder. However, in Mark, Matthew and Luke, the meal eaten WAS the Passover Meal, the Seder. Since there are 3 gospel writers saying that it was the Passover super, then I am going with Mark, Matthew and Luke and you should too because your entire argument hinges entirely on the “3 days and 3 nights in Matthew”

Actually the meal eaten was the Passover meal. It was always eaten at night and was eaten the same night Jesus was arrested. This would have been the evening of Wednesday, prior to daybreak on Wednesday. My post should have read that this was the Passover meal and also considered the “Last Supper.”

I have read Leviticus 23 but you, I think, failed to read my post 61 properly where I even gave you the dates of the Passover from 15 to 21 Nissan. Note that Preparation Day is 14 Nissan BEFORE the Passover meal. This is when the Jews remove all leaven from the house in preparation for the Feast of Unleavened bread.

Leviticus 23:5 *In the **fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord’s passover. ***6) And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread. The Passover has been eaten prior to the 15th of Nisan. No Jew would have done it any other way..

Here again is a chronology of a Wed Crucifixion based on your contention that the meal was NOT a Passover meal.

Again, my post should have said it was the Passover meal.

Tues 6pm 14 Nissan – Preparation Day – Last Supper but not Passover meal.
Wed 3 PM 14 Nissan – Crucifixion and Burial

And the crucifixion occurred after the Passover meal. Jesus was arrested later that night.

The preparation day is the day the lamb is selected, killed, prepared and eaten. The 15th of Nisan is the Sabbath, not the Passover.

Wed 6PM – Thur6PM 15 Nissan – Feast of Unleavened Bread – High Sabbath.
Thur 6pm-Fri 6pm - 16 Nissan – 2nd Day of Passover

Sorry but the Passover was on Nisan 14.

Fri 6pm- Sat 6pm – 17 Nissan - Sabbath and 3rd Day of Passover
Sat 6-pm – Sun 6pm – 18 Nissan – Sunday – 1st day of the week, women come to anoint Jesus.

You seem to forget that Nicodemus had already anointed him with spices, a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. When the women came later they would anoint him again. That was the purpose of the other spices.

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40) Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.

They placed many spices with Jesus when He was buried.

See next post…

 

[Old_Scholar]

**Dear Old Scholar, **

continued:

All 4 gospels say that Jesus died on preparation day, or day before a sabbath which is why the women could not annoint him. You say that, this sabbath was in actual fact the Feast of Unleavened bread.

That is a fact, the 15th of Nisan was a Holy Day, a Sabbath.

Problem is, all 4 gospels also mention that the sabbath they allowed to pass COULD ONLY HAVE BEEN THE WEEKDAY SABBATH because they went to the tomb on the first day of the week.

It was on Friday, the day between the Sabbaths that the women went to buy spices and prepare them. There was no other time they could have done so. In addition, I have shown already in the post that the word for Sabbaths here was plural.

John 20:1 reads” On the first day of the week Mary of Magdala came into the tomb…

Matthew 28:1 After the sabbath, as the first day of the week was dawning, 2 Mary Magdalene …
Mark 16:1-2 When the sabbath was over, …Very early when the sun had risen, on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb.
Luke: 20:1 But at daybreak on the first day of the week they took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

I have no problem with that saying but it still doesn’t say when Jesus arose…He was gone when they got there. John says it was still dark when they went.

If this is so, **the women would have allowed 3 days to pass before deciding to anoint the body of the Lord. **

Already answered above.

Remember what they said about Lazarus, that having been in the tomb for 3 days he would already smell and that is why Martha and Mary did not want to open the tomb.

But it is you who are tossing aside Christ’s words. He said that he will rise again on the third day. People have shown you that a Wed crucifixion meant Christ rose on the 4th day. We are not neglecting God’s word. You on the other hand keep glossing over facts that are in the Gospels themselves.

The fourth day would not have started until daybreak and we are told it was not yet daybreak when the women got there, not when Christ arose.

You failed to address my point that the synoptic Gospels have a different account to John.

The Synoptic gospels differ from each other as well. They are all written as the writers remembered them. John was written much later and it seems he wanted to make certain things clear.

I am asking you to take apart the points I raised above, POINT BY POINT, so that we can at least move forward.

 

[Old_Scholar]

On this point, I owe you an apology, and heartily offer mine to you.On this point, I hold my ground, as the issue is with your interpretation of Scripture and your selective view of Church history in the first 4 centuries. Even when Scripture and history clearly support Catholic teaching, you do not relent. YOu and I have been down this road; we will remain at odds here.

Now, for the topic at hand:
I notice how you nicely avoid answering the question I posed. I showed in this post, by your own words, your position on the resurrection is not clear.
So, you can answer the question:
**- Did Christ rise on Sunday (between Sat sunset and Sun sunrise)?

or

• Did Christ rise on Saturday (before Saturday sunset)?**

Still no answer I see about the three days and three nights or any part of them from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset or even prior to daybreak on Sunday…

 

[Old_Scholar]

In Matthew, Chapter 26 It states that in two days time it will be Passover, and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified.

In Mark Chapter 14 It states that The Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were to take place in two days time…

In Luke Chapter 22 It states that the feast of Unleavened Bread called the Passover, was drawing near…

In John Chapter 13 It states Before the feast of Passover…

We have been celebrating Holy Thursday night since I was a child. On Good Friday, we always celebrated Our Dear Lord dying on the cross. The buriel took place soon after because it was going to be their Holiest of Holies in the Jewish church, and the terrible earthquakes, which caused the Temple to crumble and the bodies of the dead rise, must have been quite a sight!

During our lives I have seen utterly fantastic things. I have seen things on the Television utterly miracles, happening like that United Airlines on Thursday being downed by the birds but every Man, Woman, and Child, were saved by Almighty God. I have seen, Saint Padre Pio when He came to Los Angeles one time during the early 60’s, I even got to shake Senator Jack Kennedy’s hand when he came into L.A., for the Democratic Convention.

How come you are having a hard time reading the bible? Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and then on the morning of Easter Sunday Jesus Christ had arisen from the dead.

Then tell me how Jesus could have been in the earth for three days and three nights as He said He would…

 

[Old_Scholar]

Jesus was crucified and died on Friday before sunset. He had to be placed in the tomb before sunset to avoid doing any work on the sabbath. Any part of a day is a day, so that’s the first day.

Sunset Friday to sunset Saturday is the second day. This is the only “full” day.

Jesus rose from the dead some time after sunset Saturday and before the arrival of those at the tomb Sunday morning. Any part of a day is a day, so that’s the third day.

Short, sweet, and simple.

If you wish to apply a strict 24 hour and nothing less meaning to days for calculating the death and resurrection of Jesus, then you are claiming that that’s how Jews talked and wrote about “days” back then. Let us apply the same reasoning to other verses of Scripture which mention days and/or days and nights, as the author of the piece at that link did:

Genesis 7:12 and Genesis 7:17. “Forty days and forty nights” and “forty days” are used interchangeably.

Genesis 42:17-18. His brothers were locked up for three days, yet Joseph came to them and released them ON the third day.

1 Samuel 30:12-13. “Three days and three nights” and “three days ago” are used interchangeably.

2 Chronicles 10:5 and 2 Chronicles 10:12. King Rehoboam ordered Jeroboam and the people to return “in three days” which they understood to mean “on” the third day".

Esther 4:16 and Esther 5:1. The fasting is ordered for three days, night and day, yet Ester presents herself to King Xerxes ON the third day.

And just so you don’t claim there’s something different between how they talked about time in the Old Testament and New Testament, Matthew 27:63-64. “After three days” and “until the third day” are used interchangeably.

These verses all conflict with each other if you wish to force every use of “day” to be a full 24 hours. They do not conflict at all if read with the same understanding as the people at the time they were written:

1. “day” means ANY part of the 24 hour period from one sunset to the next consecutive sunset
2. “day and night” and “day” are interchangeable
3. “in three days” and “on the third day” are interchangeable
4. “after three days” and “until the third day” are interchangeable

The message of the books of the Bible is just as applicable today as it was 2000 or more years ago, but the words were written by the hands and minds of people far removed from our present time. Which is why it’s important to always be aware of context, author, audience, and culture when reading any ancient manuscript, the Bible included. Otherwise you get bogged down in the details and lose track of the message.

Still no explanation to satisfy what Christ said about three days and three nights in the earth. Or even parts of them…

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Old Scholar,

Thank you very much for going in detail point by point through my post.

I am trying to re-concstruct the chronology and I just want to make sure that I have got your dates correct.

1. When you talk of the passover meal, is this the Seder you are talking about?
2. When is this eaten - the evening of 15 Nissan or the evening of 14 Nissan? The reason for my query is because according to my research Seder is eaten on the 15th of Nissan. I think it is eaten on the night of the 15th rather than the eve of the 15th.
3. What day is Preaparation Day for the Passover, is that the 13th?

The reason for all these queries is because I have googled the celebration and wikipedia says that the Passover IS the 7 day Feast of Unleavened Bread with the 14th being the Preparation Day but the feast actually starts with the Passover Meal on the 15th.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Old Scholar.

Here is my response to your detailed response to my post (thanks very much for that). Rather lengthy but please bear with me.

A few clarifications:

I think you have the Passover as separate to the Feast of Unleavened bread based on Lev23.

However, based on my research the Pesach (Passover) IS considered the same as the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Jews use these two terms interchangeably. So when we speak of the Passover, it actually refers to the entire 7 day festival rather than just the day before the Feast of unleavened bread.

Luke makes a point of this in Ch 22:1 “Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, 2 was drawing near”

Second, because of the difference between John and the synoptic Gospels we cannot insert their accounts interchangeably in the chronology.

For one thing John has Jesus having the Last Supper BEFORE the Passover.
All three other gospel writers have Jesus having the Passover meal.

For the Chronology then, I will stick to the synoptic gospels.

Third. The Passover Meal is not eaten on Passover day which is 14 Nissan but rather on the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is 15 Nissan.

Fourth. Here is the timeline for the Passover Feast:

14 Nissan – Preparation Day (this is what you call Passover based on Lev23). On this day the lamb is slaughtered between the two nights i.e. night of the 13th and night of 14th. Leaven is removed from the house.

15 Nissan – Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is when the Passover Meal or Seder is eaten. This is a High Sabbath.

16 Nissan – 20 Nissan – ordinary days of the Passover Festival

21 Nissan – Last Day of the Passover Festival

So once again to re-construct based on your responses to my post:

14 Nissan – Tues (Day) – Passover / prepaparation Day for feast of Unleavened Bread

15 Nissan – Tues (Night) – Feast of Unleavened Bread begins. High Sabbath. Jesus has the Passover meal (here I have the Seder as being eaten at the beginning of the feast rather than at its culmination).

15 Nissan – Wed (day) – Crucifixion, Death and Burial
16 Nissan – Wed (night) to Thur (day) – 2nd Day of the Festival but not a special Day.

17 Nissan – Thur (night) to Fri (day) – 3rd Day of the Festival and also preparation day for the weekly Sabbath.

18 Nissan – Fri (night) to Sat (day) – Sabbath

19 Nissan – Sat(night) to Sun(day) – 1st Day of the Week.

Here are the problems.
From the synoptic gospels, we know that Christ died before a Sabbath. But notice the dates above, all the events (meal, crucirfixion and death) all happen on the one day, the 15th of Nissan. So in effect Jesus dies on a Sabbath and not before.

The only way for Jesus not to die on the feast of Unleavened bread is if the meal is actually eaten as a culmination to the feast i.e. say at 5:30 on the night of 15 Nissan because then Jesus would have died on 16 Nissan which is an ordinary day.

Notice too, that the following day is neither a weekly Sabbath nor a High Sabbath, just another ordinary day of the festival. As a matter of fact the next Sabbath is still 2 days away on Saturday.

The synoptic gospels accounts clearly state that Jesus died on a preparation day. But the only preparation days we have is the Tuesday which is 14 Nissan and Friday which is the regular one for the Sabbath.

Based on this chronology then, after burying Jesus on Wed, the women waited for 3 days to anoint him. But gospels say that they only waited one day to pass, and that is the Sabbath.

To put it in the simplest timeline: Afternoon of a particular day Jesus dies but women can’t anoint Him. Following day is Sabbath. Day after that is 1st day of the week. That afternoon of Jesus’s death could therefore only be a Friday.

As I’ve said before, the Sabbath that they waited to allow to pass could only be the Saturday one because they came back very early on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

If he had died on Wed and Thursday was a Sabbath say, then they should have returned on Friday. Why would they wait until Sunday when the whole reason for not being able to anoint him was because of the coming Sabbath.

In summary, these are the facts that we need to bear in mind when reconstructing the events.

• Jesus had the Passover meal with his disciples.
• Jesus died on the afternoon of a preparation day.
• The day after Jesus’s death is a Sabbath.
• The women could not anoint Jesus because of the Sabbath so waited for the Sabbath to be over
• When the women came back to anoint Jesus, it was the first day of the week, a Sunday.

Any Chronology must satisfy all 5 points.

 

[Robbinson]

Still no explanation to satisfy what Christ said about three days and three nights in the earth. Or even parts of them…

Remarkably Old Scholar - this point has been addressed about 1/2 dozen times in this thread (including a quote from Strongs) but you consistently ignore it. If you are looking for truth, you should at least acknowledge the issue has been addressed. You appear to be so wedded to a Wednesday resurrection (perhaps its a denomination thing) that you can’t look past this issue or deal with the fact that is has been clearly addressed.

If you want to really note on what you have consistently not addressed - you have never reconicilled your reading of “three days and three nights” with Jesus words of “arising “on” the third day”. If you reject that three days and three nights includes part of a day or night in Hebrew speaking idiom (notwithstanding the scholarly authority demonstrating this is, in fact, how they spoke!), then your reading requires Jesus rise on the 4th day - but he said he would arise on the 3rd day. How about an answer to that?

Blessings,

Brian

 

[cfrancis]

I think I understand why you refuse to answer a simple question. Please note in my post to you:

Look Cal, I’m not advocating the traditional Good Friday crucifixion; the aim of this post is to try to figure out just what you’re advocating.

My goal is to get you to state, clearly and precisely, what it is you do believe. As I showed in posts #103, #104, and #105, using your own words, you are not clear and precise as to when Christ rose from the dead.

Below, Benedictus2 makes a claim:

But it is you who are tossing aside Christ’s words. He said that he will rise again on the third day. People have shown you that a Wed crucifixion meant Christ rose on the 4th day. We are not neglecting God’s word. You on the other hand keep glossing over facts that are in the Gospels themselves.

to which you respond:

The fourth day would not have started until daybreak and we are told it was not yet daybreak when the women got there, not when Christ arose.

You appear to be saying the word “day” when used in the NT means the period between sunrise and sunset.

First:

The word “hemera” is the word used for “day” in the NT (except for phrases such as “this day” - Mt 6:11; 11:23; 27:8; 28:15 -where “semeron”).

• Strong’s entry: 2250. hemera *hay-mer’-ah *feminine (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit; akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle; day, i.e. **(literally) the time space between dawn and dark, or the whole 24 hours **(but several days were usually reckoned by the Jews as inclusive of the parts of both extremes); figuratively, a period (always defined more or less clearly by the context):–age, + alway, (mid-)day (by day, (-ly)), + for ever, judgment, (day) time, while, years.

Please note the word “hemera” is the word used for day in the NT; its use is not limited to the period between sunrise and sunset. If you can find that “hemera” is limited in its use in the NT to mean strictly the period between sunrise and sunset, please provide that evidence.

You yourself affirm the use of “day” to mean the whole or part of 24 hours:

You can’t say that “three days” or the “third day” meant parts of three days. That doesn’t mean Friday night, all day Saturday and Sunday morning. ** It was a Hebrew idiom to mean any part of three days, that’s true as a common way of reckoning, just as years are when you say how old you are.** I could say that I will leave late this evening about 5 pm and arrive back the day after tomorrow at 8 am and be gone three days. ** But to the Jews, when the number of “nights”** is stated in addition to the number of days, then the expression is no longer just an idiom. It is a literal statement of fact. Three days and three nights is three days and three nights. It is simply not possible to fit three days and three nights into Friday evening to Sunday morning. Jesus Christ Himself made the statement about how long He would be in the tomb, and He is the correct one, not us.

Again, you affirm that “day” by itself is not limited to the period between sunrise and sunset.

But perhaps it would be better to count backward from when the women went to the tomb. “When the Sabbath was over . . . very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb . . . But when they looked up they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.” And they were told, “He has risen” (Mark 16:1-6). So we know that sometime prior to their arrival Christ had arisen. **This would have been on the third day or we would call it Sunday morning but as the Jews reckoned, **the time period from the ending of the Sabbath at 6 pm to 6 am was the third “night.” We know the day as Sunday however and we would say he arose Sunday before daybreak.

Again, your use of the word “day”:

Scripture doesn’t tell us but we know Christ said that the sign He would give would be that He would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. We know from Genesis that God counts a day as “the night and then the day” was the first day. “The night and the day” was the second day, etc.

Interestingly, you yourself tell us when the “day” for the Jews began:

That is three nights and three days in the tomb. He arose the first day of the week which started at 6 pm on Saturday evening as we would count it.

Just remember that each “day” really begins with night and you just can’t get to done anyway with Friday as the crucifiction day. We know Jesus arose between 5 and 6 am an Sunday. I believe Scripture says: “at daybreak.” That would be almost 6 am or right at 6 am.

The meal was eaten at the beginning of the preparation day remembering that the day started at 6 pm on Tuesday. 6 pm on Tuesday to 6 pm Wednesday was the preparation day and Thursday was the 15th of Abib.

To make your position clear, I’ll ask for the third time:

• Did Christ rise on Sunday (between Sat sunset and Sun sunrise)?
• Did Christ rise on Saturday (before Saturday sunset)?

 

[Old_Scholar]

Hi Old Scholar.

Here is my response to your detailed response to my post (thanks very much for that). Rather lengthy but please bear with me.

A few clarifications:

I think you have the Passover as separate to the Feast of Unleavened bread based on Lev23.

However, based on my research the Pesach (Passover) IS considered the same as the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Jews use these two terms interchangeably. So when we speak of the Passover, it actually refers to the entire 7 day festival rather than just the day before the Feast of unleavened bread.

Luke makes a point of this in Ch 22:1 “Now the feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, 2 was drawing near”

Second, because of the difference between John and the synoptic Gospels we cannot insert their accounts interchangeably in the chronology.

For one thing John has Jesus having the Last Supper BEFORE the Passover.
All three other gospel writers have Jesus having the Passover meal.

No Jew would observe a Holy Day any other way than specified by God as in Leviticus and the Passover meal was eaten on the evening of the 14th of Nisan. We can’t go against Scripture and claim otherwise.

For the Chronology then, I will stick to the synoptic gospels.

Third. The Passover Meal is not eaten on Passover day which is 14 Nissan but rather on the Feast of Unleavened Bread which is 15 Nissan.

This is not right. Leviticus is very clear when it is eaten.

Hi Old Scholar.

Fourth. Here is the timeline for the Passover Feast:

14 Nissan – Preparation Day (this is what you call Passover based on Lev23). On this day the lamb is slaughtered between the two nights i.e. night of the 13th and night of 14th. Leaven is removed from the house.

15 Nissan – Feast of Unleavened Bread. This is when the Passover Meal or Seder is eaten. This is a High Sabbath.

16 Nissan – 20 Nissan – ordinary days of the Passover Festival

21 Nissan – Last Day of the Passover Festival

So once again to re-construct based on your responses to my post:

14 Nissan – Tues (Day) – Passover / prepaparation Day for feast of Unleavened Bread

15 Nissan – Tues (Night) – Feast of Unleavened Bread begins. High Sabbath. Jesus has the Passover meal (here I have the Seder as being eaten at the beginning of the feast rather than at its culmination).

15 Nissan – Wed (day) – Crucifixion, Death and Burial

But you have the dates wrong and realize the meal was eaten on the evening(of Wednesday which began at sunset on Tuesday).That was the beginning of the 14th.

16 Nissan – Wed (night) to Thur (day) – 2nd Day of the Festival but not a special Day.

17 Nissan – Thur (night) to Fri (day) – 3rd Day of the Festival and also preparation day for the weekly Sabbath.

18 Nissan – Fri (night) to Sat (day) – Sabbath

19 Nissan – Sat(night) to Sun(day) – 1st Day of the Week.

Here are the problems.
From the synoptic gospels, we know that Christ died before a Sabbath. But notice the dates above, all the events (meal, crucirfixion and death) all happen on the one day, the 15th of Nissan. So in effect Jesus dies on a Sabbath and not before.

The 15th of Nisan was a Sabbath and the Romans would not have killed a Jew on a Sabbath.

see next post…

 

[Old_Scholar]

Sorry about the length but there is no other way I can answer such a lengthy post and show what I am answering. You are beginning to repeat questions and statements I have already answered.

Hi Old Scholar.

The only way for Jesus not to die on the feast of Unleavened bread is if the meal is actually eaten as a culmination to the feast i.e. say at 5:30 on the night of 15 Nissan because then Jesus would have died on 16 Nissan which is an ordinary day.

Notice too, that the following day is neither a weekly Sabbath nor a High Sabbath, just another ordinary day of the festival. As a matter of fact the next Sabbath is still 2 days away on Saturday.

Not true. The 15th of Nisan **IS **a Sabbath.

Hi Old Scholar.

The synoptic gospels accounts clearly state that Jesus died on a preparation day. But the only preparation days we have is the Tuesday which is 14 Nissan and Friday which is the regular one for the Sabbath.

Actually it began at sunset Tuesday and was the beginning of the 14th, the preparation day.

Hi Old Scholar.

Based on this chronology then, after burying Jesus on Wed, the women waited for 3 days to anoint him. But gospels say that they only waited one day to pass, and that is the Sabbath.

To put it in the simplest timeline: Afternoon of a particular day Jesus dies but women can’t anoint Him. Following day is Sabbath. Day after that is 1st day of the week. That afternoon of Jesus’s death could therefore only be a Friday.

As I’ve said before, the Sabbath that they waited to allow to pass could only be the Saturday one because they came back very early on the first day of the week which is Sunday.

If he had died on Wed and Thursday was a Sabbath say, then they should have returned on Friday. Why would they wait until Sunday when the whole reason for not being able to anoint him was because of the coming Sabbath.

Because we are told, by Scripture, that they had to buy and prepare the spices and ointments. They did that on Friday, the day between Sabbaths.

Hi Old Scholar.

In summary, these are the facts that we need to bear in mind when reconstructing the events.

• Jesus had the Passover meal with his disciples.
• Jesus died on the afternoon of a preparation day.
• The day after Jesus’s death is a Sabbath.
• The women could not anoint Jesus because of the Sabbath so waited for the Sabbath to be over
• When the women came back to anoint Jesus, it was the first day of the week, a Sunday.

Any Chronology must satisfy all 5 points.

My timeline satisfies all those things. We also have to satisfy Christ’s own words and yours does not do that. You are ignoring Leviticus and that can’t be done either.

With the 100 pounds of spices Nicodemus placed with Jesus in the tomb when He was first placed there, He would not need any more spices until the time the women went to the tomb.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Remarkably Old Scholar - this point has been addressed about 1/2 dozen times in this thread (including a quote from Strongs) but you consistently ignore it. If you are looking for truth, you should at least acknowledge the issue has been addressed. You appear to be so wedded to a Wednesday resurrection (perhaps its a denomination thing) that you can’t look past this issue or deal with the fact that is has been clearly addressed.

If you want to really note on what you have consistently not addressed - you have never reconicilled your reading of “three days and three nights” with Jesus words of “arising “on” the third day”. If you reject that three days and three nights includes part of a day or night in Hebrew speaking idiom (notwithstanding the scholarly authority demonstrating this is, in fact, how they spoke!), then your reading requires Jesus rise on the 4th day - but he said he would arise on the 3rd day. How about an answer to that?

Blessings,

Brian

On the contrary, no one has attempted to list how any part of three nights could fit into a Friday to Sunday am timetable. We MUST satisfy Christ’s own words as the “sign” He gave the Jews was considered an extremely important point. Nothing was much more important(and still is today) to the Jewish people than a “sign.” So I still wait for an explanation for that.

 

[Old_Scholar]

I think I understand why you refuse to answer a simple question. Please note in my post to you: My goal is to get you to state, clearly and precisely, what it is you do believe. As I showed in posts #103, #104, and #105, using your own words, you are not clear and precise as to when Christ rose from the dead.

Below, Benedictus2 makes a claim:
to which you respond:
You appear to be saying the word “day” when used in the NT means the period between sunrise and sunset.

First:
Please note the word “hemera” is the word used for day in the NT; its use is not limited to the period between sunrise and sunset. If you can find that “hemera” is limited in its use in the NT to mean strictly the period between sunrise and sunset, please provide that evidence.

You yourself affirm the use of “day” to mean the whole or part of 24 hours:Again, you affirm that “day” by itself is not limited to the period between sunrise and sunset.Again, your use of the word “day”:

Interestingly, you yourself tell us when the “day” for the Jews began:
To make your position clear, I’ll ask for the third time:

Chris,

You’re showing a little too much sēmeiōsis. Semantics are not that important here. The important thing is what Christ said:

Matt 12:40 *"For as Jonas was **three days **and **three nights *in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

Now if you want to claim just “parts” of days and nights, then please do so and fit it into your timeframe. Continuing to question me again and again on what I have answered several times is not a good way to communicate. If you’re so sure I am wrong, then why don’t you give the RCC view?

We all know that to say the “day” Monday includes the night and day, but the “day” portion of the “day” is still sunrise to sunset. The problem is that your timeframe is not Scriptural. You don’t really want to debate, you just want to discuss semantics.

Please try to answer my question…

 

[Alindawyl]

Still no explanation to satisfy what Christ said about three days and three nights in the earth. Or even parts of them…

It is only “no explanation” if you adhere to a selective literalist interpretation of the Bible while dismissing out of hand anything contradicting your preconceived notions. I will pray for you.

 

[Old_Scholar]

It is only “no explanation” if you adhere to a selective literalist interpretation of the Bible while dismissing out of hand anything contradicting your preconceived notions. I will pray for you.

Does that mean you can’t explain it either except to say that’s what the church says???