Crusades, Inquisition, Jews

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Petergee said:
As I have said repeatedly they were immediately excommunicated - the most severe punishment the Church can give.
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Any evidence?
Petergee said:
To the best of my knowledge the Popes have never controlled Venice, and at that time the Venetian Republic was the most powerful country in Christendom. If the popes had asked the Venetian Republic (or the Italian Republic today) to return objects to Constantinople as a token of the Church’s regret about the actions of some Venetian Catholics, we all know what the answer would be. And why you would want these objects “returned” to the Islamic republic of Turkey is beyond me.
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Constantinople was not Islamic at the time they were stolen. So I don’t know how’d they’d be able to predict this conquest 200 years in the future, and Turkey, as a republic was not until the 1900s! Remarkable though the Venetians were 😃
Petergee said:
Then why are you demanding reparations?
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Am I?

I am not demanding them at all. I simply asked if the Pope returned them. He didn’t.
Petergee said:
And you think Urban II organised special fighting units for the kings who fought the Crusades? Boy have you been fed some misinformation.
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Ouch! Your say-so is soooo convincing.
Petergee said:
Oh yes it is, according to international law.
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It is not ‘national’ but an ‘international’ body.

Obviously nothing further to add but your say-so.
 
Montalban said:
Obviously nothing further to add but your say-so.
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What’s good for the goose!

Alas and alack, you routinely make accusations without citation, and dismiss our citations as, invariably being insufficient. For all the links and citations offered to you since you began participating on this thread, I haven’t seen one that you have found sufficient or outright ignored…

You seem to have a recurring leitmotif of wanting to illustrate real or percieved instances of Papal or orther Catholic parties doing something wrong.

I have to ask, to what end? I mean is your intent mostly to show the bad things or perhaps to chip away at the Catholic teachings on the Petrine Office?
 
Montalban said:
What’d the all-supreme pontiff do? Did he excommunicate them all for their disobedience? Did he order the stolen goods (that still adorn St. Marks in Venice) to be sent back?

:rolleyes:
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What was to be done? And what does this prove?
 
jpaul said:
Peace and all-good!

In his own words, Rabbi Zolli said, "I do feel the duty of rendering homage and of affirming that the charity of the Gospel was the light that showed the way to my old and weary heart. It is the charity that so often shines in the history of the Church and which radiated fully in the actions of the reigning Pontiff."

Is anybody’s opinion still necessary for clarity? For sure, the Fundamentalist protestants will distort the plain truth as they always did with the Holy Scriptures and on the facts of Inquisition.

Ave Maria!

jpaul
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Is this the same guy who converted? Was he Rabbi at the time of these comments/
 
Montalban said:
Is this the same guy who converted? Was he Rabbi at the time of these comments/
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Yes, he converted.

Likely NO, he was no longer a rabbi at the time. From what I recall, he kept his plans for conversion quiet until he actually became Catholic.
 
Petergee said:
O…K. So it was evil for the Pope to bless warriors in the 11th-13th centuries, but it was good and right for the EO patriarchs and bishops to bless warriors in the 19th-20th centuries. er, right
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Which *is *to down-play the Catholic involvement. You’ve done it twice, denied it once. You can’t therefore be doing it by accident, but rather intending to deceive.

The Catholic church didn’t just bless the warrirors of that era. I’ve evidenced that their involvement was deeper. Deal with that, if you can.👍
 
Montalban said:
Which *is *to down-play the Catholic involvement. You’ve done it twice, denied it once. You can’t therefore be doing it by accident, but rather intending to deceive.

The Catholic church didn’t just bless the warrirors of that era. I’ve evidenced that their involvement was deeper. Deal with that, if you can.👍
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Again, to what end? If he were to concede to your accusations as you present them, what does this exercise demonstrate?
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Again, to what end? If he were to concede to your accusations as you present them, what does this exercise demonstrate?
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It wasn’t right to use force to take these precious artifacts from Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.
 
bobzills said:
It wasn’t right to use force to take these precious artifacts from Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.
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This is one of the reasons we’ve seen a recent pope apologise. But there’s a lot of Catholics here who seem to disagree with the Pope!

😦

I like the person here who invented the Turkish Republic 500 yrs before it actually happened.
 
bobzills said:
It wasn’t right to use force to take these precious artifacts from Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.
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And from there, establishing the wrongness, what does truth does this lead us to?
 
bobzills said:
It leads us to the correctness of returning these items to the Eastern Orthodox from whom they were taken.
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Bob, were it the case that such was the intent of the poster’s question on the matter, it would have been FAR easier to say “It was wrong to do this, return them please.”

But given the many scenarios and accusations leveled, it seems rather obvious there is more to it that demonstrating that these relics should be returned.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Bob, were it the case that such was the intent of the poster’s question on the matter, it would have been FAR easier to say “It was wrong to do this, return them please.”

But given the many scenarios and accusations leveled, it seems rather obvious there is more to it that demonstrating that these relics should be returned.
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Well, what is wrong with a Catholic requesting that items which were stolen by Catholics from the Eastern Orthodox Churches during the Fourth Crusade be returned to an Eastern Orthodox Church ?
 
jpaul said:
Peace and all-good!

Certainly. Rabbi Israel Zolli took the name Eugenio Maria on his baptism. The quotation is taken from The Charity of Pope Pius XII by Eugenio Zolli. Open CatholicCulture.org.

Ave Maria!

jpaul
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That’s actually not what I asked. Was he a rabbi when he made the comments?
 
bobzills said:
It wasn’t right to use force to take these precious artifacts from Eastern Orthodox Churches and place them in Roman Catholic Churches.
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In parallel to this particular issue of theft, there’s been a move for the British to return the so-called Elgin Marbles to Greece

These were stolen relatively recently, compared to the St Marks (Venice) stolen treasures.

It’d be interesting to see if the secularist Bristish Museum returns these before the Catholic Church restores Christian works to Christians.
 
bobzills said:
Well, what is wrong with a Catholic requesting that items which were stolen by Catholics from the Eastern Orthodox Churches during the Fourth Crusade be returned to an Eastern Orthodox Church ?
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Please go back and re-read the thread. No one is saying it is wrong. Why ask about it?

Again,
ASimpleSinner said:
Bob, were it the case that such was the intent of the poster’s question on the matter, it would have been FAR easier to say “It was wrong to do this, return them please.”

But given the many scenarios and accusations leveled, it seems rather obvious there is more to it that demonstrating that these relics should be returned.
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So Bob, let us be honest about this matter and brush off the patina of naïveté, as though the question were only about “requesting that items which were stolen by Catholics.”

The ever-growing string of posts is revealing that this intent has little to do with those things. Can you honestly say you are not noticing the theme here?
 
bobzills said:
Well, what is wrong with a Catholic requesting that items which were stolen by Catholics from the Eastern Orthodox Churches during the Fourth Crusade be returned to an Eastern Orthodox Church ?
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Indeed, and I thank you for your comments. What’s wrong with the Pope apologising, too! Nothing - except judging by those here who dennounce him by claiming there was nothing to apologise for.
 
ASimpleSinner said:
Please go back and re-read the thread. No one is saying it is wrong. Why ask about it?

Again,

So Bob, let us be honest about this matter and brush off the patina of naïveté, as though the question were only about “requesting that items which were stolen by Catholics.”

The ever-growing string of posts is revealing that this intent has little to do with those things. Can you honestly say you are not noticing the theme here?
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Why ask about it? Because many of the stolen artifacts have not been returned yet, and it seems to be a simple matter of justice to return what was taken from another Church?
 
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