Crusades, Inquisition, Jews

[Petergee]

Any evidence?

Try reading any reputable secular historical account of the period.

Constantinople was not Islamic at the time they were stolen.

No kidding Einstein? Hence the inverted commas I put around “returned”. If the objects were returned to the Hagia Sophia now as you demanded, they would be returning them to the Islamic government of Turkey which has custody ofg the Hagia Sophia nd everything in it.

Am I?

I am not demanding them at all. I simply asked if the Pope returned them. He didn’t.

Good I’m glad to have cleared up at least one piece of your historical ignorance. And as you are not demanding apologies or reparations I don’t see the point of your complaint that the reparations were not made. And no of course the Pope didn’t retirn them because the Pope never had them and never had access or power over them.

Ouch! Your say-so is soooo convincing.

Very rich coming from someone who’se made it a haboit to make wild accusations with no basis in fact, then when evidence is demanded just moves onto the next wild accusation. If there is anything I have said for which evidence is not easily available, point it out.

It is not ‘national’ but an ‘international’ body.

The UN has its own sovereign territory just like the Papal States or the Vatican, in New York, Geneva and various other places.

 

[Montalban]

Try reading any reputable secular historical account of the period.

Great, anything that agrees with you is ‘reputable’.

No kidding Einstein? Hence the inverted commas I put around “returned”. If the objects were returned to the Hagia Sophia now as you demanded, they would be returning them to the Islamic government of Turkey which has custody ofg (sic) the Hagia Sophia nd (sic) everything in it.

You didn’t say ‘now’. You ran it all in one paragraph, unless you’re unsure what this means when you said

To the best of my knowledge the Popes have never controlled Venice, and at that time the Venetian Republic was the most powerful country in Christendom. If the popes had asked the Venetian Republic (or the Italian Republic today) to return objects to Constantinople as a token of the Church’s regret about the actions of some Venetian Catholics, we all know what the answer would be. And why you would want these objects “returned” to the Islamic republic of Turkey is beyond me.

Good I’m glad to have cleared up at least one piece of your historical ignorance.

Ouch. How is you accusing me of taking a stand, and me pointing this out made into you clearing up a piece of my historical ignorance? The transference from your mistake is brilliant!

And as you are not demanding apologies or reparations I don’t see the point of your complaint that the reparations were not made.

As noted, I never made such a demand. You in fact just responded to that point

And no of course the Pope didn’t retirn (sic) them because the Pope never had them and never had access or power over them.

Right, he had the power to call people to a crusade, and to claim sovereignty over several kings (including John of England) but not this!!

Very rich coming from someone who’se (sic) made it a haboit (sic) to make wild accusations with no basis in fact, then when evidence is demanded just moves onto the next wild accusation. If there is anything I have said for which evidence is not easily available, point it out.

So you say! Very convincing retort!

The UN has its own sovereign territory just like the Papal States or the Vatican, in New York, Geneva and various other places.

I don’t doubt there is a piece of territory contained within the city of New York that is outside the legal realm of the USA. However if you can find people who are citizens of the UN, and contribute to it’s government, you’d be on your way to showing it is a nation.
If it is a country, then nations who are members must be less than nations! Funny then that ‘soverign states’ can ignore the UN!

THE UNITED NATIONS is a unique international organization ***of ***191 sovereign States, representing virtually every country in the world. It was founded after the Second World War to maintain international peace and security, develop friendly relations among nations and promote social progress, better living standards and human rights. The Member States are bound together by the principles of the UN Charter, an international treaty that spells out their rights and duties as members of the world community.
un.org/geninfo/ir/index.asp

 

[Montalban]

I’ve cited facts regarding the formation of the Knights under the power of the church.

So far Petergee’s arguments are to appeal to bluff, and bravdo

“You just don’t know the facts!” he yelps!

 

[Montalban]

The UN has its own sovereign territory just like the Papal States or the Vatican, in New York, Geneva and various other places.

The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are to facilitate cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress and human rights issues.
…
The UN and its agencies are immune to the laws of the countries where they operate, safeguarding UN’s impartiality with regard to the host and member countries. This independence allows agencies to implement human resources policies that may even be contrary to the laws of a host- or a member country. For instance, a person who is otherwise eligible for employment in Switzerland, where the International Labour Organization (ILO) has its headquarters, may not be employed by the ILO unless he or she is a citizen of an ILO member state.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_nations

 

[guanophore]

Torture and burning at the stake seem pretty bad to me.

Matt 10:28-29
28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Tim 1:18-20

This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom** I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. **

Yeah, I think they took some of the Biblical teaching too literally…

 

[guanophore]

I tire of these proofs that since other religious leaders tortured and killed more maliciously than the Church, then its not so bad. If the Church (or its members) did wrong, then the Church (or its members) did wrong.

I’d rather hold us up to a higher level (as we should be) than to rationalize it by saying “well, it’s not as bad as those”.

I agree. It seems to me that in both the Crusades and Inqusition, there were Catholic politicians involved who were interested in power and wealth, or at least, fame. Participants in the Crusades were sometimes not even believers, but were told that they would save themselves or a loved on by going to war.

I think that Jesus did not intend for His people to seek or fight for land, wealth, power, or even their own salvation. At least not in the way it was done in the Crusades. I am still on the fence as to the “just war” business. It seems to fly in the face of Jesus example. However, never having had an army of Muslims on my doorstep, it is not really fair for me to say.

 

[guanophore]

EDIT: I’m not sure that the Inquisition/Church courts technically executed. I understand that the civil authorities applied that.

Only a technicality, since the civil authorities were Catholic, and were excommunicted if they failed to inflict the punishment. This sad chapter is part of why priests are not allowed to be involved in political office today.

Speaking about burning, Calvin had that down pretty pat, didn’t he?

Perhaps, but one must keep in mind that Calvin believed certain people were created for perdition, and whether burning them started now, or later, burn they would. Only the elect could be saved, and God had created them for this end from the beginning.

 

[Axion]

Only a technicality, since the civil authorities were Catholic, and were excommunicted if they failed to inflict the punishment. This sad chapter is part of why priests are not allowed to be involved in political office today.

Can you cite occasions where civil authorities were excommunicated for failing to inflict a certain punishment?
And where do you get the “priest” thing from?? This sounds like total malarky to me…

The fact is that in all cases the CIVIL law punished relapsed and persistent heretics wityh death. This was for a very good CIVIL reason - which is that from the 4th century onward, heretical groups like the donatists, paulicians, bogomils and others had either become involved in fomenting rebellion and civil war against the State, and even - as in the case of the bogomils and others, joining with non-christian enemies to make war on the state. The burning of certain persistent heretics actually began in the Byzantine Empire

The early inquisition was introduced precisely after the Cathar heresy had led to fifty years of civil war in France.

 

[guanophore]

gee, i hope there’s a huge difference between now and then. as i understand it, the crusades refer to a mission by christian knights and soldiers to liberate the holy land from muslim rule (not as some posters claimed, to save christendom from muslim domination). on the way to jerusalem and in jerusalem itself these “christians” slaughtered untold numbers of innocent jews, muslims and eastern orthodox christians who previously lived together fairly harmoniously. today that would be called a humanitarian catastrophe.

if the crusades had never happened unity with our eastern orthodox brethren would probably be a much easier sell.

Well, bigotry, prejudice and genocide still exist. It is to be hoped that Christians are not perpetrating it.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Why ask about it? Because many of the stolen artifacts have not been returned yet, and it seems to be a simple matter of justice to return what was taken from another Church?

More specificlly, I am asking why ask if it is “wrong to ask about?” …

 

[bobzills]

More specificlly, I am asking why ask if it is “wrong to ask about?” …

Because it seems like the right thing to do. If Catholic Crusaders stole items from Orthodox Churches, and these items were placed in Catholic Churches, it seem like it would be the right thing to try to return these items to the Orthodox Churches.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Because it seems like the right thing to do. If Catholic Crusaders stole items from Orthodox Churches, and these items were placed in Catholic Churches, it seem like it would be the right thing to try to return these items to the Orthodox Churches.

Is my questioning so nuanced that it is really proving this difficult to understand “What is the intention here?” On the face of it, it seems rather clear these various points being made aren’t intended to rectify wrongs, so much as illustrate just how “wrong is Rome” time and again.

To the person examining this open and honestly, it seems the thinking is consistent.

 

[bobzills]

Is my questioning so nuanced that it is really proving this difficult to understand “What is the intention here?” On the face of it, it seems rather clear these various points being made aren’t intended to rectify wrongs, so much as illustrate just how “wrong is Rome” time and again.

To the person examining this open and honestly, it seems the thinking is consistent.

I think that the intention is to do the right thing and to return items which were stolen by Catholic Crusaders from the Orthodox Churches.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I think that the intention is to do the right thing and to return items which were stolen by Catholic Crusaders from the Orthodox Churches.

Would that it were the basis for the asking. I just don’t buy it.

I stand behind this posting.

You seem to have a recurring leitmotif of wanting to illustrate real or percieved instances of Papal or orther Catholic parties doing something wrong.

I have to ask, to what end? I mean is your intent mostly to show the bad things or perhaps to chip away at the Catholic teachings on the Petrine Office?

If you think that after re-examining the constant stream of questions the poster offers with the end-view of highlighting difficulties in history experienced by members of the Catholic Church, more power to you.

 

[tomarin]

Well, bigotry, prejudice and genocide still exist. It is to be hoped that Christians are not perpetrating it.

amen, guanophore.

 

[mtr01]

Would that it were the basis for the asking. I just don’t buy it.

I stand behind this posting.

If you think that after re-examining the constant stream of questions the poster offers with the end-view of highlighting difficulties in history experienced by members of the Catholic Church, more power to you.

It seems perfectly clear to anyone…except those with an agenda. I think you will come to find that you have been discoursing with one such person.

 

[Petergee]

Great, anything that agrees with you is ‘reputable’.

You made the accusation that the despoilers of Constantiniople were not excommunicated. Cite your proof or apologise for the outrageous accusation.

You didn’t say ‘now’. You ran it all in one paragraph, unless you’re unsure what this means when you said

Right, so you damn “the pope” (sic) for not returning the objects before, but you don’t want them returned now either. You’ve got a :heads I win, tails you lose" situation.

Ouch. How is you accusing me of taking a stand, and me pointing this out made into you clearing up a piece of my historical ignorance? The transference from your mistake is brilliant!

And what is this “mistake” I have made?

Right, he had the power to call people to a crusade, and to claim sovereignty over several kings (including John of England) but not this!!

He could claim sovereignty and fume and fulminate as much as he liked, but 95% of the time the princes of secular states ignored him. Especially when obeying him would have been to their financial loss. Are you really THAT ignorant about medieval history, or are you just pretending to be, so that you can jerk our chains?

So you say! Very convincing retort!

I don’t doubt there is a piece of territory contained within the city of New York that is outside the legal realm of the USA.

Thank you for conceding my point. Not sure why you posted all the other irrelevant info about the UN.

 

[Montalban]

You made the accusation that the despoilers of Constantiniople were not excommunicated. Cite your proof or apologise for the outrageous accusation…

Another made up argument you’re willing to deal with. It seems that much of which I post you ignore, intent on inventing debate and attacking that!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Another made up argument you’re willing to deal with. It seems that much of which I post you ignore, intent on inventing debate and attacking that!

From here it seems that most of what you post is meerly to engage in polemic and bring up sore spots SOLEY for the sake of antagonizing.

By all means, simply ascribe that to me projecting, throw in an emoticon, and then perhaps a sarcastic reference to a typo.

 

[Montalban]

It seems perfectly clear to anyone…except those with an agenda. I think you will come to find that you have been discoursing with one such person.

Any hints?