Crusades, Inquisition, Jews

[bobzills]

Brother forgive me if I am wrong on this, but your insistence on controversy against the Catholic position on matters wide and disparate point my simple mind to the same conclusion, time and again: when it comes to beating that horse, any stick will do.

It is always possible to revert to ad hominem arguments and launch an uncharitable and vicious attack on the character of your opponent when you know you are wrong. In my personal opinion, it is simply wrong to beat and rape nuns and steal precious artifacts from an Orthodox Church and place them in Catholic Churches as was done in the Fourth Crusade. And this is not something to joke about.

Take a look at the article at Catholic Fordham University, Dana C. Munro, "The Fourth Crusade ", fordham.edu/halsall/source/4cde.html#sack

" Then it was announced to all the host that all the Venetian and every one else should go and hear the sermons on Sunday morning; [Apr 11, 1204] and they did so. Then the bishops preached to the army, the bishop of Soissons, the bishop of Troyes, the bishop of Havestaist [Halberstadt] master Jean Faicette [De Noyon, chancellor of Baldwin of Flanders], and the abbot of Loos, and they showed to the pilgrims that the war was a righteous one; for the Greeks were traitors and murderers, and also disloyal, since they had murdered their rightful lord, and were worse than Jews. Moreover, the bishops said that, by the authority of God and in the name of the pope, they would absolve all who attacked the Greeks."…
" How shall I begin to tell of the deeds wrought by these nefarious men! Alas, the images, which ought to have been adored, were trodden under foot! Alas, the relics of the holy martyrs were thrown into unclean places! Then was seen what one shudders to hear, namely, the divine body and blood of Christ was spilled upon the ground or thrown about. They snatched the precious reliquaries, thrust into their bosoms the ornaments which these contained, and used the broken remnants for pans and drinking cups,-precursors of Anti-christ, authors and heralds of his nefarious deeds which we momentarily expect. Manifestly, indeed, by that race then, just as formerly, Christ was robbed and insulted and His garments were divided by lot; only one thing was lacking, that His side, pierced by a spear, should pour rivers of divine blood on the ground.

Nor can the violation of the Great Church [Hagia Sophia] be listened to with equanimity. For the sacred altar, formed of all kinds of precious materials and admired by the whole world, was broken into bits and distributed among the soldiers, as was all the other sacred wealth of so, great and infinite splendor.

When the sacred vases and utensils of unsurpassable art and grace and rare material, and the fine silver, wrought with go , which encircled the screen of the tribunal and the ambo, of admirable workmanship and the door and many other ornaments, were to be borne away booty, mules and saddled horses were led to the very sanctuary of t temple. Some of these which were unable to keep their footing the splendid and slippery pavement, were stabbed when they fell, that the sacred pavement was polluted with blood and filth.

1. Nay more, a certain harlot, a sharer in their guilt, a minister the furies, a servant of the demons, a worker of incantations and poisonings, insulting Christ, sat in the patriarch’s seat, singing an obscene song and dancing frequently. Nor, indeed, were these crimes committed and others left undone, on the ground that these were of lesser guilt, the others of greater. But with one consent all the most heinous sins and crimes were committed by all with equal zeal. Could those, who showed so great madness against God Himself have spared the honorable matrons and maidens or the virgins consecrated to God?

Nothing was more difficult and laborious than to soften by prayers, to render benevolent, these wrathful barbarians, vomiting forth bile at every unpleasing word, so that nothing failed to inflame their fury. Whoever attempted it was derided as insane and a man of intemperate language. Often they drew their daggers against any one who opposed them at all or hindered their demands.

No one was without a share in the grief. In the alleys, in the streets, in the temples, complaints, weeping, lamentations, grief, t groaning of men, the shrieks of women, wounds, rape, captivity, t separation of those most closely united. Nobles wandered about ignominiously, those of venerable age in tears, the rich in poverty. Thus it was in the streets, on the corners, in the temple, in the dens, for no place remained unassailed or defended the suppliants. All places everywhere were filled full of all kinds of crime. . Oh, immortal God, how great the afflictions of the men, how great the distress!"

 

[NotWorthy]

Simple Sinner,

I guess 4th Crusade jokes are like Lincoln “Theater” jokes. It’s still too soon.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

It is always possible to revert to ad hominem arguments and launch an uncharitable and vicious attack on the character of your opponent when you know you are wrong. In my personal opinion, it is simply wrong to beat and rape nuns and steal precious artifacts from an Orthodox Church and place them in Catholic Churches as was done in the Fourth Crusade. And this is not something to joke about.

It is always possible, but that is not what I did. I am not wrong.

I would like to see where I was viscous.

No one was joking about beating and raping nuns. Get that quite clear. In my personal opinion, it is wrong to rape and beat nuns also. Matter of fact, that is a little more than a personal opinion.

The fact that 800 years later, 25 generations on this is still talked about - near reveled in - with such passion and haughty victimhood by some parties who appear to be more interested in scandal than justice is telling.

Are you as empassioned in your plea for the return of Greek Catholic churches in Eastern Europe to Greek Catholics? Fresher on the memory still, that is in the past two generations, my grandmother’s lifetime.

You accuse me of attacking your character when all I did was point to a pattern of rasing controversy consistently taking the dimmest view.

 

[bobzills]

It is always possible, but that is not what I did. I am not wrong.

I would like to see where I was viscous.

No one was joking about beating and raping nuns. Get that quite clear. In my personal opinion, it is wrong to rape and beat nuns also. Matter of fact, that is a little more than a personal opinion.

The fact that 800 years later, 25 generations on this is still talked about - near reveled in - with such passion and haughty victimhood by some parties who appear to be more interested in scandal than justice is telling.

Are you as empassioned in your plea for the return of Greek Catholic churches in Eastern Europe to Greek Catholics? Fresher on the memory still, that is in the past two generations, my grandmother’s lifetime.

You accuse me of attacking your character when all I did was point to a pattern of rasing controversy consistently taking the dimmest view.

I still don’t see the joke concerning the Fourth Crusade. Sorry, I don’t think that this is something to be joked about.
" How shall I begin to tell of the deeds wrought by these nefarious men! Alas, the images, which ought to have been adored, were trodden under foot! Alas, the relics of the holy martyrs were thrown into unclean places! Then was seen what one shudders to hear, namely, the divine body and blood of Christ was spilled upon the ground or thrown about. They snatched the precious reliquaries, thrust into their bosoms the ornaments which these contained, and used the broken remnants for pans and drinking cups,-precursors of Anti-christ, authors and heralds of his nefarious deeds which we momentarily expect. Manifestly, indeed, by that race then, just as formerly, Christ was robbed and insulted and His garments were divided by lot; only one thing was lacking, that His side, pierced by a spear, should pour rivers of divine blood on the ground. "

 

[bobzills]

And every last square inch of property in Eastern Europe stolen from the Catholic Church in my grandmother’s lifetime by athiestic regimes that the Orthodox now enjoy free use of should be returned to the faithful Catholics of those areas. NOW.

Maybe we could hold a booty trade - the gold in Venice, for the temples where people prayed and offered in Russia, Ukraine, Bylorus, Romania, etc.

This is off the topic of the Crusades and the Inquisition. I won’t make any comment in this thread concerning the collaboaration of the Ukrainian nationalists with the Nazi fascist Adolf Hitler.

 

[Petergee]

This is off the topic of the Crusades and the Inquisition. I won’t make any comment in this thread concerning the collaboaration of the Ukrainian nationalists with the Nazi fascist Adolf Hitler.

The diversion from the topic came when some posters asserted that Catholics are somehow defending or have not apologised for the sins of the 4th crusaders because Catholic church properties allegedly still contain some items looted from Hagia Sophia 800+ years ago. A topic which they seem to want to keep going indefinitely.
Catholics quite fairly responded that it could equallly (in fact much more forcefully) be said that the Orthodox benefited from far, far greater atrocities against Catholics within living memory, and yet have not returned the items looted from Catholic churches. Sauce for the goose…

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This is off the topic of the Crusades and the Inquisition. I won’t make any comment in this thread concerning the collaboaration of the Ukrainian nationalists with the Nazi fascist Adolf Hitler.

With that last inflamatory remark, in fact you just did. (Nevermind that this could in no way be applicable to the Romainian situation, but you googled just enough for polemic…)

But Petergee is right:

The diversion from the topic came when some posters asserted that Catholics are somehow defending or have not apologised for the sins of the 4th crusaders because Catholic church properties allegedly still contain some items looted from Hagia Sophia 800+ years ago. A topic which they seem to want to keep going indefinitely.
Catholics quite fairly responded that it could equallly (in fact much more forcefully) be said that the Orthodox benefited from far, far greater atrocities against Catholics within living memory, and yet have not returned the items looted from Catholic churches. Sauce for the goose…

 

[bobzills]

With that last inflamatory remark, in fact you just did. (Nevermind that this could in no way be applicable to the Romainian situation, but you googled just enough for polemic…)

But Petergee is right:

Romania was invaded by the Austrians and Orthodox Churches, such as the famous monastery at Simbata de sus, were destroyed by the invading Catholics in the 16th century. This and the collaboration of the Ukrainian nationalists with Adolf Hitler are historical realitites which need a different thread to be discussed. These historical situations really have nothing to do with either the Crusades or the Inquisition.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Romania was invaded by the Austrians and Orthodox Churches, such as the famous monastery at Simbata de sus, were destroyed by the invading Catholics in the 16th century. This and the collaboration of the Ukrainian nationalists with Adolf Hitler are historical realitites which need a different thread to be discussed. These historical situations really have nothing to do with either the Crusades or the Inquisition.

Have google will travel!

Interesting your emphasis of collaboration… Watch your family get starved to death, and see who you don’t fight… But given the MO, tossing in Hitler is, I suppose to be expected.

This is tandentially related inasmuch as it speaks to the oddity of the continued and frequently highly inflamatory accusations made against the Catholic Church vis the Fourth Crusades. (Incidentally, for the frequency of polemic discussion on the Sack of Constantinople, the 1182 massacres of all foreigners in Constantinople and the expulsion of the Venetians seem to be mentioned only rarely.)

800 years, 25 generations and a papal apology later notwithstanding, this moral high (hobby) horse being laid at the feet of today’s Catholics is just plain odd.

Bringing this dark episode up with such frequency is part and parcel of the polemic against the Catholic Church.

http://www.hindu.com/2005/02/16/images/2005021604710301.jpg

Would that it were the case we could more frequently consider the amazing things done since then.

Hopefully one day we might begin to discuss more things like the Vatican’s printing of service books for the Russian Orthodox Church during the Soviet regime or their collaboration with the ROC in the education of clergy at the Russicum…

 

[bobzills]

Interesting your emphasis of collaboration… Watch your family get starved to death, and see who you don’t fight… But given the MO, tossing in Hitler is, I suppose to be expected…

Like I said, the situation of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches requires an entirely different thread because it is not related to the Inquisition or the Crusades. And although at the time of WWII it may involve Ukrainian nationalism and collaboration with Hitler, the problems between Russian Orthodoxy and Ukrainian Greek Catholicism go back several centuries. For example, in 1839, the Greek Catholic bishops Antonii Zubko, and Vasilii Luzhinskii signed an act of reunion with the Russian Orthodox Church at Polatsk in February 1839 and 1305 Greek Catholic priests agreed to join the Russian Orthodox Church. And Tsar Nicholas I had a medal struck with the inscription “Torn away by force (1596), reunited by love (1839). Or to look at the other side of the picture, in 1938, the Polish government confiscated many Orthodox Churches in the Chelm region, 115 Orthodox Churches were destroyed, while many others were transferred to Roman Catholics. But what does this have to do with the Fourth Crusade? Really nothing at all. You are bringing this up as a diversion from the main topic.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

You are bringing this up as a diversion from the main topic.

Hardly. I have given reason which you seem to reject as you selectively read. My premise was, to be clear, that to selectively focus on this injustice - as happens so many times - is just plain odd in the face of a long and complicated history. The moral high ground doesn’t seem so high when taken as a whole.

Polemicists want to keep the image vivid and the the episode as a point of common reference. To what good end? No one alive today is culpable for it. On the issue of what is in Venice at this time, aside from expressing a desire to see certain actions - those issues would or could get dealt with between the heirarchies. We are not privy to the full goings-on or the politics of that transfer. Complications about what should be returned where and to whom could be tough. Agreements and understandings may already have been reached.

Don’t also ignore what HAS happened as well:

abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/11/28/1253080.htm

When I ascribed motive to your interest in belaboring different points in this topic, I was accused of ad hominem attack. Now that you are ascribing motive to me, can you be accused of the same?

Maybe I should not be so proud as to want to keep getting in one more word - as though it is the “last word” (or that having the “last word” would make a difference)…

Once again, in laying out this dark episode of some 800 years (25 generations) ago after all this time, after a papal apology and all here agreeing how sad all the events in Constantinople of that 20 year period between the Venetian Massacre in Constantinople and the Venetion Sack of Constantinople… I just can’t see the value of it anymore.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

You also seem unaware that for most of history, in addition to its spiritual role, the Holy See played a political role similar to the role which the UN plays today - often ignored, but the only supra-national authority capable of bringing some type or order, control and moral force over the conduct of international affairs, to prevent a chaotic and bloody might-makes-right world order. Thus Urban II’s authorisation of Christian kings and knights to take their troops on the First Crusade to liberate the Holy Land from its oppressive conquerors may be viewed as similar to the UN’s authorisation of its member states to send troops to liberate Kuwait from Saddam’s forces.

The Templars can be compared to modern day UN peacekeepers. The organization started going downhill when they got involved in banking.

 

[NotWorthy]

The Templars can be compared to modern day UN peacekeepers. The organization started going downhill when they got involved in banking.

I think they “were perceived in a different light” when they got successful in banking. As soon as a king realized that he was going broke, and he sees the Templar with all this money…

… well, you can do the math.

I don’t know of the money changing the Templars.

 

[bobzills]

Hardly. I have given reason which you seem to reject as you selectively read. My premise was, to be clear, that to selectively focus on this injustice - as happens so many times - is just plain odd in the face of a long and complicated history. .

I thought that was the point of this thread. To selectively focus on the Crusades and the Inquisition.

 

[NotWorthy]

I thought that was the point of this thread. To selectively focus on the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Maybe so, but Indignance is much more respected when it’s Righteous. Those with skeletons in their closets shouldn’t be angered because others have skeletons in their closets.

There’s a word for that.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I thought that was the point of this thread. To selectively focus on the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Emphasis on “selectively.”

If that is your thinking, props to you. You have done a laudible job of remaining utterly focused on the objections of these sensitve matters. To what end?

Taking care to continuely hone in on and hammer on specific points (which seem to mostly re-assert the obvious but unwritten thesis that your body of posts as a whole continually present - namely that Rome is mostly bad, foolish, inconsistent or mean)…

Far better for this discussion to say “let’s *get back to talking about how bad that really bad thing you did was!” *than to more widely consider broader responses or thinking on them in light of the complicated shared histories. (Including for example, the Venetian Massacre that occured before the Sack of Constantinople.)

So now that we have come to mutual agreement on how very bad the bad thing was, that happened 800 years ago, 26 generations ago, and the last Pope apologized for, and no apologist here is defending as right or promoting recurrence…

What more is left?

Except for the polemic value of it, the continued reflection on this singular episode begins to look rather like a self-inulgent excercise in righteous indignation.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

And not because they were being persecuted in England either. According to their own testimonies, the Puritans left because they couldn’t stand the anglican authorities in England not being intolerant enough of “papists” and “popery”, so they went to America to found a fundamentalist-fascist state where they could persecute Catholics to their hearts’ content.

Well i certainly hope they failed , as catholicism seems to have taken root in the USA ; also i think we should thank the modern day Brits for being forthcoming in trying to foster better relations with the Vatican. The BBC is also very fair [in general] when it comes to theological issues…as someone commented their programme on the inquisition was very unbiased. Also the BBC coverage of the funeral of our beloved Pope JP2 was given extensive , respectful coverage.

 

[Petergee]

Well i certainly hope they failed , as catholicism seems to have taken root in the USA

Well they succeeeded for a long, long time. They even invaded the colony of Maryland which been specifially founded as the first freedom-of-religion part of the English speaking world and the only haven for Catholics, and they made Catholicism illegal there too. As recently as the mid-19th century Catholics were a small persecuted minority in the USA. And even today some of the Puritans’ descendants protest about the fact that a majority of the judges in the USA’s highest Court are (mostly nominal) Catholics. (No-one has ever objected to the fact that protestants have been a majority on the Court for its entire previous history.)

 

[Petergee]

I thought that was the point of this thread. To selectively focus on the Crusades and the Inquisition.

So cut out the irrelevant guff about Roumania, Ukraine, Austria, etc.

 

[bobzills]

So cut out the irrelevant guff about Roumania, Ukraine, Austria, etc.

Romania and the Ukraine were brought up by someone else, and I suggested a separate thread for these issues.