Cruz Thread

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Lily_Bernans said:
Harry Blackmun and six other justices said that abortion follows the US Constitution. What are your qualifications to say they are misguided? In what school did you become a constitutional law scholar?
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My qualifications have been awarded to me by a MUCH higher authority than 7 justices that have been appointed to the Supreme Court! I am a scholar of the Constitution of the United States.

My authority comes from being born in the USA. This is how it has been presented to me:

“You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.”

John Adams, Second President of the United States.

I may ask you a few questions in return. You have claimed to have been raised in France living in a cloistered convent (talking only allowed on weekends), that you are a French woman without knowledge of politics, that you lived for 10 years in Switzerland, that you inherited financials considered to be large by average standards, that you live in a former mansion/hotel, that you are a theology professor teaching at a Catholic Univ.,
you practice your faith as you did in the Carmelite monastery - waking at 3 a.m. and praying for three hours, you have relatives with priestly vocations and Bishops as friends, you “work” for your money and are clever about paying your taxes, you will vote as a Democrat - but you identified yourself as an Independent, you praise Hillary in all things Hillary but will vote for Sanders, you have degraded all Republican candidates but prefer Kasich lately, never like Trump at all but compliment him lately - Cruz, not so much. You are quite positive that Hillary will avoid penalty for her Classified Info abuse, and you manage to rack up lots of posts per day plus work, etc., etc.

I question all of the above. I do not say I don’t believe you and I don’t say I do. I will say clearly, so that you will not be mistaken, you are sincerely wrong on your view of voting for people who have declared abortion to be fundamental in their pursuit. I urge you to talk it over with Our Blessed Mother and listen to her. You don’t have to explain yourself for changing your stand - just quietly do so. God Bless you.
 
grotto said:
My qualifications have been awarded to me by a MUCH higher authority than 7 justices that have been appointed to the Supreme Court! I am a scholar of the Constitution of the United States.

My authority comes from being born in the USA. This is how it has been presented to me:

“You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.”

John Adams, Second President of the United States.

I may ask you a few questions in return. You have claimed to have been raised in France living in a cloistered convent (talking only allowed on weekends), that you are a French woman without knowledge of politics, that you lived for 10 years in Switzerland, that you inherited financials considered to be large by average standards, that you live in a former mansion/hotel, that you are a theology professor teaching at a Catholic Univ.,
you practice your faith as you did in the Carmelite monastery - waking at 3 a.m. and praying for three hours, you have relatives with priestly vocations and Bishops as friends, you “work” for your money and are clever about paying your taxes, you will vote as a Democrat - but you identified yourself as an Independent, you praise Hillary in all things Hillary but will vote for Sanders, you have degraded all Republican candidates but prefer Kasich lately, never like Trump at all but compliment him lately - Cruz, not so much. You are quite positive that Hillary will avoid penalty for her Classified Info abuse, and you manage to rack up lots of posts per day plus work, etc., etc.

I question all of the above. I do not say I don’t believe you and I don’t say I do. I will say clearly, so that you will not be mistaken, you are sincerely wrong on your view of voting for people who have declared abortion to be fundamental in their pursuit. I urge you to talk it over with Our Blessed Mother and listen to her. You don’t have to explain yourself for changing your stand - just quietly do so. God Bless you.
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I CAN’T STAND Kasich or Cruz; I GREATLY prefer Trump among the Republicans. At one time, I did prefer Kasich. As I saw more and more of him, he lost me. And, I’ve only been teaching a few classes in the evening lately. That’s why I have so much more free time in the day. That will not last. In the cloister we talked one hour each evening, seven days a week. I didn’t inherit any money in Switzerland; I made money, about a million dollars, half of which is still owed to me. I recently obtained a court judgment for what is owed and retained a Swiss lawyer to collect.

It doesn’t matter if you believe me or not. I wouldn’t expect you to. Why should you? We are all anonymous people on a message board. Time winnows out the truth for all of us.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
The US Constitution makes it clear that only persons have rights. The unborn are not legal persons under the US Constitution.
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And this is what you think God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit have revealed to the world?

The US Constitution does NOT say only persons have rights or that the unborn are NOT
legal persons!

If a Catholic, defend and protect the Catholic Faith as you were brought into, through your Baptism and receipt of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

If an American citizen, defend our Constitution and our country.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
Again, why is it called the FEAST OF THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION?

But again these are religious arguments. An atheist doesn’t believe in an immortal soul, but can recognize that I am alive for example. Legally what makes my life worth protecting? And without using the term soul.
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We are not all sinless. Mary was an exception.

You might have to contact the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They wrote the document.
 
grotto said:
And this is what you think God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit have revealed to the world?

The US Constitution does NOT say only persons have rights or that the unborn are NOT
legal persons!

If a Catholic, defend and protect the Catholic Faith as you were brought into, through your Baptism and receipt of the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.

If an American citizen, defend our Constitution and our country.
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I think the Founding Fathers went to great lengths to separate church and state, and I don’t think it was a particularly good idea.

I am not in favor of abortion. Not at all. But I think we need a Constitutional amendment making the unborn “persons” with full rights.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
We are not all sinless. Mary was an exception.

You might have to contact the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. They wrote the document.
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She was an exception in being sinless. She wasn’t an exception on getting a soul earlier than the rest of us.

Pretend I don’t have a soul. Why is it a crime to kill me?
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
She was an exception in being sinless. She wasn’t an exception on getting a soul earlier than the rest of us.

Pretend I don’t have a soul. Why is it a crime to kill me?
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Please show me an official Church document that states all human beings are infused with an immortal soul at conception. Thank you.
 
grotto said:
My qualifications have been awarded to me by a MUCH higher authority than 7 justices that have been appointed to the Supreme Court! I am a scholar of the Constitution of the United States.

My authority comes from being born in the USA. This is how it has been presented to me:

“You have rights antecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.”

John Adams, Second President of the United States.

I may ask you a few questions in return. You have claimed to have been raised in France living in a cloistered convent (talking only allowed on weekends), that you are a French woman without knowledge of politics, that you lived for 10 years in Switzerland, that you inherited financials considered to be large by average standards, that you live in a former mansion/hotel, that you are a theology professor teaching at a Catholic Univ.,
you practice your faith as you did in the Carmelite monastery - waking at 3 a.m. and praying for three hours, you have relatives with priestly vocations and Bishops as friends, you “work” for your money and are clever about paying your taxes, you will vote as a Democrat - but you identified yourself as an Independent, you praise Hillary in all things Hillary but will vote for Sanders, you have degraded all Republican candidates but prefer Kasich lately, never like Trump at all but compliment him lately - Cruz, not so much. You are quite positive that Hillary will avoid penalty for her Classified Info abuse, and you manage to rack up lots of posts per day plus work, etc., etc.

I question all of the above. I do not say I don’t believe you and I don’t say I do. I will say clearly, so that you will not be mistaken, you are sincerely wrong on your view of voting for people who have declared abortion to be fundamental in their pursuit. I urge you to talk it over with Our Blessed Mother and listen to her. You don’t have to explain yourself for changing your stand - just quietly do so. God Bless you.
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Thank you for the suggestion. God bless you as well.
 
Lily_Bernans said:
Not really. You’re comparing persons who have been born to potential life. When does God infuse the living fetus with a soul? The Church does not teach a particular time because it says it does not know, and I linked to a priest who confirmed this previously. I don’t know when the fetus receives a soul. No one does but God.

Your argument is illogical because it compares people who definitely have immortal souls to fetuses that may or may not have immortal souls. It’s apples and oranges.

And that’s not an argument FOR abortion. It’s just pointing out the illogicality of your argument.
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Above you gave an argument comparing pre-born and born. You claim that because the Church hasn’t decreed when the soul occurs then there is a difference between those who have a soul, and those that do not have a soul.

The Church does not teach that there is a difference in value.

So I assume that you are trying to make a legal argument.

Then where is the soul, legally? Pretend I have no soul, why does the law protect my life?
Lily_Bernans said:
Please show me an official Church document that states all human beings are infused with an immortal soul at conception. Thank you.
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I don’t know of a document off hand.

The fact the Mary was conceived without sin, to me seems to be proof.

You don’t seem to agree.
 
Mary_Gail_36 said:
Above you gave an argument comparing pre-born and born. You claim that because the Church hasn’t decreed when the soul occurs then there is a difference between those who have a soul, and those that do not have a soul.

The Church does not teach that there is a difference in value.

So I assume that you are trying to make a legal argument.

Then where is the soul, legally? Pretend I have no soul, why does the law protect my life?

I don’t know of a document off hand.

The fact the Mary was conceived without sin, to me seems to be proof.

You don’t seem to agree.
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No, I can’t compare any flawed human being to the Blessed Mother. She is unique, just as Jesus is unique.

I refer to the document released by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that states that the Church teaches it does not know when the soul in infused. That is not an argument for abortion, however. I’m not trying to argue for abortion.
 
Is this still the Cruz thread or has it moved elsewhere? I don’t think he’s been mentioned more than a time or two in the past ten pages of posts.
 
Pro Democrats insist on embellishing their candidates moral values to recommend abortion not be factor in denying Catholic voting. It takes a lot of refuting their claims because they have repetition down to a science and work in consort. They claim a thread is being hijacked if they get rejection and admonishment of their canned talking points.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Of course it isn’t.

“Carpet bombing” according to most understandings of it is where the enemy is in a particular location where civilians could also be or are even known to be, and the place is bombed with a thoroughness that’s likely to kill nearly everyone there, with the bombing party accepting collateral damage as part of the price of killing the enemy.

Abortion is targeting the innocent, and only the innocent, not as collateral damage but as the point of the whole exercise. It’s like dropping leaflets to ISIS telling them the place will be carpet bombed in 24 hours and to get out so only civilians will be killed.

Big difference.
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A difference I see is actual born babies bombed, they’re merely collateral damage. An unborn fetus otoh gets the title “the innocent”.
 
grotto said:
Pro Democrats insist on embellishing their candidates moral values to recommend abortion not be factor in denying Catholic voting. It takes a lot of refuting their claims because they have repetition down to a science and work in consort. They claim a thread is being hijacked if they get rejection and admonishment of their canned talking points.
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You are exactly right: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1]

The so-called typical “attacking a straw man” argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent’s proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e. “stand up a straw man”) and then to refute or defeat that false argument (“knock down a straw man”) instead of the original proposition.[2][3]

This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged emotional issues where a fiery, entertaining “battle” and the defeat of an “enemy” may be more valued than critical thinking or understanding both sides of the issue.
 
whatsmyname said:
Is this still the Cruz thread or has it moved elsewhere? I don’t think he’s been mentioned more than a time or two in the past ten pages of posts.
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Preparing for a 2nd ballot in Cleveland, Ted Cruz supporters in Georgia want to secure as many delegates as possible starting this Saturday.

Georgia political observers say the Cruz campaign has made a big push to earn delegate slots for supporters of the Texas senator. This weekend will test that effort.

ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/cruz-trump-backers-prepare-for-georgia-delegate-fi/nq5cz/
 
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