Crystal Cathedral board endorses offer from Diocese of Orange

[Holly3278]

Maybe they could buy the property, tear down the existing building, and build a new but traditional looking church there!

 

[valient_Lucy]

Maybe they could buy the property, tear down the existing building, and build a new but traditional looking church there!

I had the same thought myself. There are some modern churches or chapels that use traditional architecture.

 

[BlueRain]

That’s a cathedral!? When I heard “Crystal Cathedral” I was expecting something from Lord of the Rings. It looks like a modern building.

Once my aunt from California came to visit us here and she thought our churches were so pretty, even the small ones, like the simple ones. Now I know why.

 

[rayne89]

When I was about 11 we stopped there (as tourists) while in California for a trip to Disneyland. From an 11 year old’s perspective it was quite pretty. I remember it being huge and there were actual birds in bird cages chirping. Let me put it this way way, I’ve seen far uglier architecture.

 

[Rolltide]

Very true, but it would take a lot of work to make this look like a church, and more importantly, do we even know what a church is supposed to look like anymore?

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/g...arden-grove_crystal-cathedral_interior_lg.jpg

Actually, if you look at the interior, it looks like it wouldn’t take a whole lot of redesign to bring the interior into line for a Catholic Mass. The pews are oriented very similarly to a standard Catholic church (although the pool down the center aisle has to go). The organ placement isn’t really a problem. In fact, it’s supposed to be a superb organ, so that’s actually a plus. The choir location up front could be moved to the rear balcony, and everything in front of that could be removed and replaced with a standard altar and lectern setup. Large Stations of the Cross could be placed on the wall areas just underneath the balconies. The large floor-to-ceiling windows on either side of the front of the church could be replaced with stained glass. A beautiful crucifix could be hung in the gap just above the front organ pipes.

 

[TarkanAttila]

http://pipedreams.publicradio.org/g...arden-grove_crystal-cathedral_interior_lg.jpg

Actually, if you look at the interior, it looks like it wouldn’t take a whole lot of redesign to bring the interior into line for a Catholic Mass. The pews are oriented very similarly to a standard Catholic church (although the pool down the center aisle has to go). The organ placement isn’t really a problem. In fact, it’s supposed to be a superb organ, so that’s actually a plus. The choir location up front could be moved to the rear balcony, and everything in front of that could be removed and replaced with a standard altar and lectern setup. Large Stations of the Cross could be placed on the wall areas just underneath the balconies. The large floor-to-ceiling windows on either side of the front of the church could be replaced with stained glass. A beautiful crucifix could be hung in the gap just above the front organ pipes.

That pool? It could become the new baptismal font!

 

[JaMc]

That pool? It could become the new baptismal font!

Actually, I thought that’s what it was, since many Protestants practice Baptism by immersion…

The pictures show a very nice looking PROTESTANT church. But, then again, so do the pictures of the “Taj Mahoney”, “Our Lady of Maytag”, and that strange teepee-looking thing (I think that’s the cathedral in Oakland?). As others have said, it should fit right in, and, like I said before, probably not any worse than what the architect would have come up with anyway…

Of course, Boise, where Bp. Brown came from, has a very nice 100+ year old gothic style cathedral, so maybe he’ll ask for somthing along those lines…

 

[branderman]

As to CatholicGuy22 seminarian on the Crystal Cathedral not being a suitable place to have the Holy Mass. Just to remind him, the mass is said around the world in small churches, large cathedrals, on ships, battlefields, homes, etc. It is not the venue or place that makes the Holy Mass holy. I personally have an enormous respect for the Diocese of Orange to even consider this move. It speaks volumes of their flexibility, vision, ecumenicalism, and business sense to envision this Protestant national and international landmark as their new home. It has the potential to put the Roman Catholic Church of Orange on a national stage at a stunningly beautiful landmark cathedral for all to see, worship at and enjoy; a strategic marketing move of immeasurable value at a time when the Church has seen declining membership year after year. It would be a bold move by the diocese but, nevertheless, a move true to the words of Jesus Christ by letting our “light shine before others”.

 

[MugenOne]

Amen! “For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

As to CatholicGuy22 seminarian on the Crystal Cathedral not being a suitable place to have the Holy Mass. Just to remind him, the mass is said around the world in small churches, large cathedrals, on ships, battlefields, homes, etc. It is not the venue or place that makes the Holy Mass holy. I personally have an enormous respect for the Diocese of Orange to even consider this move. It speaks volumes of their flexibility, vision, ecumenicalism, and business sense to envision this Protestant national and international landmark as their new home. It has the potential to put the Roman Catholic Church of Orange on a national stage at a stunningly beautiful landmark cathedral for all to see, worship at and enjoy; a strategic marketing move of immeasurable value at a time when the Church has seen declining membership year after year. It would be a bold move by the diocese but, nevertheless, a move true to the words of Jesus Christ by letting our “light shine before others”.

 

[branderman]

TarkanAttila’s practical suggestions in making the cathedral into a more Catholic
place of worship would be fairly easy to accomplish. Actually making the decision to consider the site takes some insight and perhaps courage. As I mentioned elsewhere on this topic, I personally have an enormous respect for the Diocese of Orange to even consider this move. It speaks volumes of their flexibility, vision, ecumenicalism, and business sense to envision this Protestant national and international landmark as our new home. It has the potential to put the Diocese of Orange on a national stage at a stunningly beautiful landmark cathedral for all to see, worship at and enjoy. It would be a strategic marketing move of immeasurable value at a time when the Church has seen declining membership year after year. Granted, it would be a bold move by the diocese but, nevertheless, a move true to the words of Christ by letting our “light shine before others”.

 

[Rolltide]

There’s also something to be said for the possibility of evangelism here. The Crystal Cathedral, whatever you might think of it, IS a landmark and up until now, one of the most famous Protestant churches in America. A large number of Protestant tourists would likely continue to come visit the cathedral, and I would imagine that this would put a good number of people inside a Catholic Church (where they could inquire about the faith) for the very first time. It would also be difficult to overlook the symbolism of Catholicism taking control of an important Protestant landmark.

 

[TarkanAttila]

There’s also something to be said for the possibility of evangelism here. The Crystal Cathedral, whatever you might think of it, IS a landmark and up until now, one of the most famous Protestant churches in America. A large number of Protestant tourists would likely continue to come visit the cathedral, and I would imagine that this would put a good number of people inside a Catholic Church (where they could inquire about the faith) for the very first time. It would also be difficult to overlook the symbolism of Catholicism taking control of an important Protestant landmark.

Hmmm… I’m liking where this is going…

To those of you out there who like traditional cathedrals…

I agree that traditional cathedrals are beautiful. The stone-and-stained-glass Gothic cathedrals are spectacularly beautiful and breathtaking icons of Our Church. The pride and joy of our Christian architectural heritage.

But, for fear of reiterating a well-made point already, we are not JUST Gothic cathedrals. We are also in the great, domed churches of the East. We are in the humble, wooden chapels and churches scattered across the Plains of North America. We are in the ancient stone churches of the Roman Empire, and the rock-hewn monasteries of Ireland and Scotland. We are not the European Church, or the American Church, or the church of England, France, or Germany. We are the Catholic Church, the Universal Church, beyond country and clock. I see no reason why this modern masterpiece could not become yet another icon of our Catholic faith and culture - personal taste aside. (All that steel scaffolding kinda takes some of the glory of a glass structure away IMHO.)

Gothic cathedrals were once new. No doubt someone protested them as a waste of resources, or far too elaborate, or even garish. But they are some of the very valuable gems on the diadem of Christendom. Why not this and ones like it?

 

[Rolltide]

Gothic cathedrals were once new. No doubt someone protested them as a waste of resources, or far too elaborate, or even garish. But they are some of the very valuable gems on the diadem of Christendom. Why not this and ones like it?

The very term “Gothic” was originally derogatory, From Wikipedia:

“Gothic architecture” does not imply the architecture of the historical Goths. It has a much wider application. The term originated as a pejorative description. It came to be used as early as the 1530s by Giorgio Vasari to describe culture that was considered rude and barbaric. At the time in which Vasari was writing, Italy had experienced a century of building in the Classical architectural vocabulary revived in the Renaissance and seen as the finite evidence of a new Golden Age of learning and refinement.

The Renaissance had then overtaken Europe, overturning a system of culture that, prior to the advent of printing, was almost entirely focused on the Church and was perceived, in retrospect, as a period of ignorance and superstition. Hence, François Rabelais, also of the 16th century, imagines an inscription over the door of his Utopian Abbey of Thélème, “Here enter no hypocrites, bigots…” slipping in a slighting reference to “Gotz” and “Ostrogotz.”

In English 17th-century usage, “Goth” was an equivalent of “vandal”, a savage despoiler with a Germanic heritage, and so came to be applied to the architectural styles of northern Europe from before the revival of classical types of architecture.

According to a 19th-century correspondent in the London Journal Notes and Queries:

There can be no doubt that the term ‘Gothic’ as applied to pointed styles of ecclesiastical architecture was used at first contemptuously, and in derision, by those who were ambitious to imitate and revive the Grecian orders of architecture, after the revival of classical literature. Authorities such as Christopher Wren lent their aid in deprecating the old mediæval style, which they termed Gothic, as synonymous with everything that was barbarous and rude.

On 21 July 1710, the Académie d’Architecture met in Paris, and among the subjects they discussed, the assembled company noted the new fashions of bowed and cusped arches on chimneypieces being employed “to finish the top of their openings. The Company disapproved of several of these new manners, which are defective and which belong for the most part to the Gothic.”

Styles come into favor, and fall out of favor. Gothic was rehabilitated in the nineteenth century and became popular again. A similar thing happened with the Baroque style. At first, it was popular, but then it came to be seen as garish and overdone. Now, once again, it is appreciated.

There is no doubt that some modern structures will come to be loved over time. The still incomplete Sagrada Familia in Barcelona was derided as too modern and ugly when it was begun in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Now it is considered a masterpiece.

 

[SonCatcher]

I’m pretty sure its centrally air conditioned othewise it’d be like an inferno inside.

Nope. Garden Grove is just a few miles from the ocean (never gets too hot outside in the first place), the glass is mostly reflective and several windows automatically open on a thermostat to let the breeze through whenever it does start to warm up inside.

Actually, they had to add a heating system for the winter months (though it is minimal).

 

[VeronicaAnne]

One “minor” question →

Wouldn’t they have to comipletely re-do the seating – pew areas – to make room for kneelers?

 

[Rolltide]

Maybe… but it’s likely that kneelers could be retrofitted onto the existing pews.

 

[VeronicaAnne]

Maybe… but it’s likely that kneelers could be retrofitted onto the existing pews.

Yebbut they’d have to remove rows of seats to make room for the kneelers in the pew in front of your own pew.

Another thing – the sunlight through all those windows would make me have to squint during Mass.

As it is, my own parish’s church has clear window glass along the top 2 feet of half the building – the half of the building above and alonside the altar. This means that depending on whether there’s no rain… and depending on what time of day that Mass is being held – and which season we’re in on the calendar –

if you don’t choose your seat carefully, you’ll wind up with the Sun shining directly into your eyes for most of the Mass.

I can go along with that – keeping my eyes closed since, after all, I know the Mass and how it “goes.” Still, there’s some of us who wind up looking like we’re either not paying attention, sleeping, or are merely trying to keep the sunlight from shining directly into our eyes.

I’ve taken to putting on my sunglasses during Mass if I’ve gotten such a seat. Still, the sunlight is directly in my eyes.

People will tend to scoot alongside on the pew to avoid the sunlight if it winds up hitting where it wasn’t whe they sat down where they did. It’s really a bit of a strange-ish type of phenomenon… all these people serruptitiously scooting over at some point during Mass if and when they have room to do so.

Distracting, to say the least!

:banghead:

On the “plus side” → while sitting listening to that Mass’s reading or Father’s homily, I’ll look at the clear glass window – 2 feet high and 16 feet wide – above and just to the side of the ambo. There – the tree limbs (which may or not be moving in the breeze – which may or may not have any leaves – with if having leaves they may be green OR turning color) and sky (with or without clouds moving across the sky) –

well, I’ve found that scene to be inspirational. God speaking in the Word being read or the Word as proclaimed in Father’s homily. God just being THERE. Me focusing much better on what’s going on with me… with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

But… if it’s sunny outside. And if it’s a particular season in which the Sun’s angle hits just the RIGHT spot across the pews at THAT time of day. Well, I’ll tend to go to a different Mass. At least, make it a point to find a pew with a spot that the Sun will NOT be “hitting” during that Mass!

(I’m SUCH a weenie!)

 

[VeronicaAnne]

On the “plus side” → while sitting listening to that Mass’s reading or Father’s homily, I’ll look at the clear glass window – 2 feet high and 16 feet wide – above and just to the side of the ambo. There – the tree limbs (which may or not be moving in the breeze – which may or may not have any leaves – with if having leaves they may be green OR turning color) and sky (with or without clouds moving across the sky) –

well, I’ve found that scene to be inspirational. God speaking in the Word being read or the Word as proclaimed in Father’s homily. God just being THERE. Me focusing much better on what’s going on with me… with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Here’s something I wrote when I came home from such a Mass – a Saturday night Vigil Mass - where I’d been struck with a line from Father’s homily that night. He was talking about “dying to self.”

Die to Self – an essay 9-19-2009

Was a lovely day. Early this evening… an hour or so after sundown… there was a bit of a “coolness” overlaid on the soft warmth that had been the afternoon. Beginning tomorrow, it’ll get back up to some very warm days.

Went to Confession this afternoon before the 5:30 PM Mass. It had been 3 months since my last confession… and I was “due.”

We all really love our priest. Though, since it’s Confession… like everybody else as usual I was a bit trepeditious to go to Confession… even though I know from Faith and my lifelong experience as a Catholic, taking advantage of the sacrament of Reconciliation, that the world is much brighter and, well, lighter after I’ve celebrated that Sacrament. More pertinent… I am much brighter inside… and it seems that I’m actually physically lighter, too. Hard to describe, in a way, but I know that my smiles are much lighter-weight (if that’s even a word?) when I come out of the Confessional.

On another note – not having anything at all to do with my going to Confession this afternoon…

I’m dealing with … been on a continuing journey of healing from… a very deep wound that has been in my life for a very long time.

In Father’s homily during tonight’s Mass he said something that I had heard many times before … yet tonight, it was like a light bulb came on over the recesses of my wounded heart

The command? It’s this –

Die to yourself.

Why such a “scary” command would give me peace… the peace that I needed… I sure don’t know. I just know that it did.

My eyes were on the clear windows along the entire top perimeter of the church… under the roof and above the 10-foot high wall behind the altar… where the late afternoon sun was beaming through the leaves on the branches of the trees adjoining the church building. It’s really truly beautiful to watch… especially when there’s a soft breeze going on… causing the branches to sway gently sometimes… sometimes more strongly as it was today… as you listen to the Scripture readings at Mass… and the priest’s homily.

Quietly observing just the upper branches of the trees bending in the easy wind, light blue sky and wisps of white and light grey clouds behind… and the shadows that parts of the leaves cast on the window… for some reason tonight, watching that interplay of what appears to be random movement and light in the breeziness of the branches and leaves… I really “got” how VERY STRONG Jesus is… physically, in addition to all his other perfect strengths. He’s solid, solid, solid. I can actually literally lean on him… at least… metaphorically… if you get my point? That sensation came over me right there… and gave me comfort.

With the way the light was coming through some of the leaves… and between other leaves… leaving some leaves to continue to cast their gray shadow on the glass… with Autumn soon approaching… somehow I understood that familiar command to “Die to yourself” much deeper than I ever had. I held onto that “light” as long as I consciously could before it dissipated. Or, at least as long as I could perceive that light. I suspect that… knowing God as little (as much???) as I do, that light of His is always there. It’s just that I was given a semi-long glimpse of its remaining existence in my heart… even as wounded as it has been.

Yet, just consciously remembering at least that THAT moment of clarity happened brings it back as strongly and surely… if that’s really the word – “gently and surely and solidly” are better words for it… as it had been when that depth of understanding occured tonight when I was hearing my priest say it in his homily.

Tonight, that phrase – that command – Die to self – became another “tool” that I need to use… to accept… to embrace… as I continue on this journey to heal something… a very painful occurrence… in my own life.

That’s the Good News that I’d like to share with y’all.

As obtuse as it may be… hopefully someone might be able to relate to what I’m saying… understand what I’m trying in my clumsiness to describe.

“I am the Way. I am the Truth. I am the Life.”

Tonight… I realize that the adjective “the Light” also describes the Lord.

And I’ve taken a scrap of paper… written “Die to self” on it… and put it on my fridge to remind myself of it.

I’m fine. No need to worry about me. I’m just… like everybody else… carrying a cross that sometimes I just need some encouragement. And tonight, I got it.

 

[Rolltide]

Yebbut they’d have to remove rows of seats to make room for the kneelers in the pew in front of your own pew.

I’m still not entirely sure that’s true… are Catholic pews really further apart than Protestant ones? I mean, most kneelers are retractable. As long as your legs can fit under the pew, I doubt the pew distance would have to be changed.

I suppose that’s an interesting question to investigate further though!

 

[SonCatcher]

I’m still not entirely sure that’s true… are Catholic pews really further apart than Protestant ones? I mean, most kneelers are retractable. As long as your legs can fit under the pew, I doubt the pew distance would have to be changed.

I suppose that’s an interesting question to investigate further though!

I doubt it. I’ve had difficulty navigating plenty of Catholic pews even before the kneelers are put down.