Crystal Cathedral board endorses offer from Diocese of Orange

[Dale_M]

The CCM seemed to be doing so well for so long and … what set of circumstances brought them to this terrible point? Millions in debt; 40+ million; the payment from the Catholic Diocese will just about pay the debt.

Everything did seem to go wrong all at once, but part of the problem is that they overbuilt. Their practice was to begin new construction, and then seek donations to pay for it. So when donations plummeted, they were caught with major unmet expenses.

Why did donations plummet? Partly it was due to the economic downturn which is hurting churches across the US. But CCM also underwent some major transitions in leadership. First, the charismatic founder retired and placed his eldest son in charge. However, the son’s preaching style was totally out of synch with what his father had created. It was professorial and academic, instead of the light, “power of positive thinking” message which had attracted so many followers. And people complained… lots of people complained.

Dissension resulted and the son was ousted from his position, leading to bitter feelings in the family (Dad had a role in the ouster, as did other family members) and uncertainty among the followers. Dad installed his daughter as the new pastor, and promised to come out of retirement to help out for a bit. But he was tired, and ready to be done with it. And although daughter is a nice person, she isn’t as charismatic as Dad, which has led to a loss of followers.

Then there is the matter of the aging congregation. Dad had attracted a large flock, but it leveled off and the following began to shrink. He had younger competition, from the many mega-church pastors who followed in his footsteps. And that has been a long term drain on CCM.

 

[wondrousgnat]

My wife was one of the few supporters of the failed fund drive.
It seems they should have reached a point where they would have decided that they have enough and need no more projects. After so many years they were still deep in debt. Congregation was getting older and tough economic climate does not help. Also growing numbers of megachurches are competing with each other. I live not far from Willowcreek but there are new ones being built that are closer if I was into that sort of thing. (About 5 miles from my house there are two megachurches next to each other.) I hear Willowcreek is declining in membership. Such probably also happens to the Crystal Cathedral. I have also heard that the pastors at Crystal are still riding in chauffer driven limos. That would not turn people on the giving when they see no sacrifice from those pleading for money.

 

[Faithdancer]

I have also heard that the pastors at Crystal are still riding in chauffer driven limos. That would not turn people on the giving when they see no sacrifice from those pleading for money.

Here is the scoop on the limos, I remember when this story broke, a couple of weeks ago. This couldn’t have helped the Schullers’ last minute, “save the Crystal Cathedral from the Catholics” cause:
losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/04/crystal-cathedral-under-fire-for-using-limo-to-deliver-food-to-rev-schuller/

 

[Faithdancer]

<I see a lot of good in it. And then … don’t I pick up my Bible and get hit with the Apostles gushing over the beauty of the Jerusalem Temple and praising it to Jesus.

Built by “Herod the Great,” a monster who had tried to kill Jesus when He was an infant; it was now the headquarters for Caiaphas, Annas and a number of plotters who were trying to kill Him again. Jesus probably stunned his apostles when He assured them the glittering buildings would soon have not a stone left upon a stone.

False worship in a beautiful setting apparently doesn’t please God. For the mountaintops and terebinths (tree groves) of Baal worship were beautiful too. And as someone here has alluded to - the catacombs were not such a great “Place” to be offering the mass - yet there was true worship there.

With that said, God himself instructed Moses and Solomon and Zerubbabel to use fine things such as gold for the sanctuary and temple. Fine fabrics. Elaborate artwork. Symbolic architecture (even for the “tent”), vestments for the priests, music and various ministries and offices in His plan for uniting with His covenant people.

It seems God is always defining the parameters for us. The widow’s mite is worth more than the rich man’s plenty on one hand – Abel’s sacrifice of his “best sheep” is pleasing while Cain’s “sacrifice” of perhaps NOT his finest grain is not.

In these matters I agree with you a bit more Aeolian. But I am still listening to the critics.
There are some adjustments to be made, whatever is finally decided. But if Christ is lost in the “business details” or the thrill of acquisition (not that I think He will be at all) – even the good sense of it all becomes nonsense.

Thank you honest critics. Don’t get cynical now - that’s often not “of God”. If this event comes to pass rejoice in the good of it. If it somehow DOESN’T – I will try to walk with Jesus without the benefit of a Crystal Cathedral. I promise.

Interesting and well-reasoned post, CaptFun. Especially like the Zerubbabel reference- don’t see that every day! That name always brings a smile to my face:dancing:

 

[CaptFun]

Thanks Faithdancer. Bless the Franciscans!

By the way, two of my most favorite films involve St. Francis. The beautifully photographed “Brother Sun, Sister Moon” by Franco Zeffirelli (1971) and “Francis of Assisi” (1962) starring Bradford Dillman (as Francis) and Dolores Hart (later SISTER Dolores Hart!) as Claire. I must say I loved Judi Bowker’s Claire in the former movie too. See them if you haven’t already.

Zerubbabel has a ring to it doesn’t it. Reminds me of sixth grade when sister was asking us (boys) our chosen Confirmation names. “WOOOLF-GANG!” barked Steve H. to an audible gasp. This name was so cool to sixth grade boys there was a rush to it - unanimity that would be the envy of the upcoming Iowa caucases.

Despite the apparent consensus, and to our amazement, Wolfgang (though a saint) was put on the list of forbidden confirmation names. Possibly due to a spirit contrary to the dignity of the sacrament. I switched to Anthony under duress, but have enjoyed his blessings - and purported skill in finding lost articles.

I haven’t outgrown my adolescent rebellions completely either. After all this high minded talk about the Crystal Cathedral I found myself humming the melody of the Doors’ “Crystal Ship” today. The war of good and evil goes ON!

 

[jasonjessica09]

Southern CA is where modernism in the Catholic Church has really become bad. First you have the huge gigantic $250 million Cathedral in Los Angeles. I’ve been there before and it seriously lacks any sense of reverance at all, and for all that money?

And now Orange buys the Crystal building? What has happened to Catholic church architecture? These places resemple multi purpose halls, not a shrine to Jesus Christ. What happened to a gothic architecure, stained glass windows, a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter, an enterance with one main asile that leads straight to the alter with the tabernacle of Christ, and icons.

Now we got clear glass rooftops, circular layouts, tabernacles on the side, gigantic pipe organs that stands out more than the tabernable, unflattering statues, no icons, strange and almost secular style artwork, or nothing at all (as Protestants have)

I look down at this purchase as another misstep by a Catholic diocese towards the hesesy of modernsim, where the people and the community become the focus and not Jesus.

Thumbs down to Orange!

 

[Aeolian]

Southern CA is where modernism in the Catholic Church has really become bad. First you have the huge gigantic $250 million Cathedral in Los Angeles. I’ve been there before and it seriously lacks any sense of reverance at all, and for all that money?

And now Orange buys the Crystal building? What has happened to Catholic church architecture? These places resemple multi purpose halls, not a shrine to Jesus Christ. What happened to a gothic architecure, stained glass windows, a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter, an enterance with one main asile that leads straight to the alter with the tabernacle of Christ, and icons.

Now we got clear glass rooftops, circular layouts, tabernacles on the side, gigantic pipe organs that stands out more than the tabernable, unflattering statues, no icons, strange and almost secular style artwork, or nothing at all (as Protestants have)

I look down at this purchase as another misstep by a Catholic diocese towards the hesesy of modernsim, where the people and the community become the focus and not Jesus.

Thumbs down to Orange!

All you are doing is expressing your personal taste. You don’t seem to grasp that the “bowling alley” style of architecture was largely a product of the limitations of design and materials in centuries past. If you didn’t have the gigantic budgets of places like the Hagia Sophia or St. Peter’s Basilica and if you didn’t have the services of people like Michelangelo your church building was long and skinny out of necessity.

Neither the COLA nor the Crystal Cathedral are my favorite types of structures but I certainly appreciate many aspects of both. In some cases they do things better than any of the ancient ancestors. To equate them to “Protestant” design is simple ignorance.

It’s interesting you suggest “a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter (sic)” That might be your ideal but it’s by no means an ancient practice. Long before what you describe was popular a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” was common, particulrly in parts of Europe. Google both words and look at some of the largest (FAR larger than what you describe) and most beautiful tabernacles ever. I think a modern version of a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” might be appropriate for the Crystal Cathedral. Before they existed, the “tabernacle” was a large pyx that hung suspended from the ceiling, often through an elaborate pulley system.

 

[TarkanAttila]

TO ALL OF THE WHINERS WHO WISH THE ARCHDIOCESE HAD BUILT A GOTHIC CATHEDRAL INSTEAD:

Did the Apostles worship in a Gothic cathedral?
Did Augustine?
Did Andrew Kim Taegon or Paul Miki?
Did Vincent of Lerins?
Did John Chrysostom or Saint Nicholas?

You really put the ROMAN in ROMAN Catholicism. -_-

 

[wisdomseeker]

All you are doing is expressing your personal taste. You don’t seem to grasp that the “bowling alley” style of architecture was largely a product of the limitations of design and materials in centuries past. If you didn’t have the gigantic budgets of places like the Hagia Sophia or St. Peter’s Basilica and if you didn’t have the services of people like Michelangelo your church building was long and skinny out of necessity.

Neither the COLA nor the Crystal Cathedral are my favorite types of structures but I certainly appreciate many aspects of both. In some cases they do things better than any of the ancient ancestors. To equate them to “Protestant” design is simple ignorance.

It’s interesting you suggest “a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter (sic)” That might be your ideal but it’s by no means an ancient practice. Long before what you describe was popular a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” was common, particulrly in parts of Europe. Google both words and look at some of the largest (FAR larger than what you describe) and most beautiful tabernacles ever. I think a modern version of a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” might be appropriate for the Crystal Cathedral. Before they existed, the “tabernacle” was a large pyx that hung suspended from the ceiling, often through an elaborate pulley system.

yeah, and that is why now the holy father has formed a commission to oversee the architeture of the CC. it is because many have forsaken the meaning of our Faith.

 

[jasonjessica09]

All you are doing is expressing your personal taste. You don’t seem to grasp that the “bowling alley” style of architecture was largely a product of the limitations of design and materials in centuries past. If you didn’t have the gigantic budgets of places like the Hagia Sophia or St. Peter’s Basilica and if you didn’t have the services of people like Michelangelo your church building was long and skinny out of necessity.

Neither the COLA nor the Crystal Cathedral are my favorite types of structures but I certainly appreciate many aspects of both. In some cases they do things better than any of the ancient ancestors. To equate them to “Protestant” design is simple ignorance.

It’s interesting you suggest “a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter (sic)” That might be your ideal but it’s by no means an ancient practice. Long before what you describe was popular a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” was common, particulrly in parts of Europe. Google both words and look at some of the largest (FAR larger than what you describe) and most beautiful tabernacles ever. I think a modern version of a “sacramentstoren” or “sakramentshäus” might be appropriate for the Crystal Cathedral. Before they existed, the “tabernacle” was a large pyx that hung suspended from the ceiling, often through an elaborate pulley system.

Your quote does not even make sense Aeolian. It is not personal taste I am expressing but reverance to the Eucharist, the Holy Liturgy, and how a place to worship God should be properly authenticated.

Also to say I am igorant that I compare certain Catholic churches is ignorant on your part. You wrong Aeolian. I see you as a modernist for sure. I’ve been to some terriblly designed Catholic churches which I think will not make a protestant think any different about what might be wrong with there faith or make them belive what they think is actually heretical.

You dont need St Peters to have a great architecture design by the way. Some real simple churches such as these small Byzatine Catholic chapels are beautiful and I could sit there all day and spend time in prayer, relfection or study. If you have not noticed by now, I love classic Eastern Christain Icons.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Your quote does not even make sense Aeolian. It is not personal taste I am expressing but reverance to the Eucharist, the Holy Liturgy, and how a place to worship God should be properly authenticated.

Also to say I am igorant that I compare certain Catholic churches is ignorant on your part. You wrong Aeolian. I see you as a modernist for sure. I’ve been to some terriblly designed Catholic churches which I think will not make a protestant think any different about what might be wrong with there faith or make them belive what they think is actually heretical.

You dont need St Peters to have a great architecture design by the way. Some real simple churches such as these small Byzatine Catholic chapels are beautiful and I could sit there all day and spend time in prayer, relfection or study. If you have not noticed by now, I love classic Eastern Christain Icons.

The Jewish Temple is a perfect example of how God wants His House to be. that is how the CC has been designed for centuries until modernists decided that they know more than God.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

If the Catholic Diocese gets it all worked out and moves in and then six months later, there is an earthquake that erases the “crystal cathedral”, THEN we will all know …

 

[SteveSJr71]

Southern CA is where modernism in the Catholic Church has really become bad. First you have the huge gigantic $250 million Cathedral in Los Angeles. I’ve been there before and it seriously lacks any sense of reverance at all, and for all that money?

And now Orange buys the Crystal building? What has happened to Catholic church architecture? These places resemple multi purpose halls, not a shrine to Jesus Christ. What happened to a gothic architecure, stained glass windows, a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter, an enterance with one main asile that leads straight to the alter with the tabernacle of Christ, and icons.

Now we got clear glass rooftops, circular layouts, tabernacles on the side, gigantic pipe organs that stands out more than the tabernable, unflattering statues, no icons, strange and almost secular style artwork, or nothing at all (as Protestants have)

I look down at this purchase as another misstep by a Catholic diocese towards the hesesy of modernsim, where the people and the community become the focus and not Jesus.

Thumbs down to Orange!

 

[SteveSJr71]

Southern CA is where modernism in the Catholic Church has really become bad. First you have the huge gigantic $250 million Cathedral in Los Angeles. I’ve been there before and it seriously lacks any sense of reverance at all, and for all that money?

And now Orange buys the Crystal building? What has happened to Catholic church architecture? These places resemple multi purpose halls, not a shrine to Jesus Christ. What happened to a gothic architecure, stained glass windows, a huge tabernacle at the center of the alter, an enterance with one main asile that leads straight to the alter with the tabernacle of Christ, and icons.

Now we got clear glass rooftops, circular layouts, tabernacles on the side, gigantic pipe organs that stands out more than the tabernable, unflattering statues, no icons, strange and almost secular style artwork, or nothing at all (as Protestants have)

I look down at this purchase as another misstep by a Catholic diocese towards the hesesy of modernsim, where the people and the community become the focus and not Jesus.

Thumbs down to Orange!

I have visited the Crystal Cathedral twice and it is actually a very beautiful church even though I prefer traditional church architecture. With some minor work it will be a very suitable Cathedral for the Diocese. Who says that they will have no icons or the tabernacle will be on the side? And the pipe organ in the Crystal Cathedral is one of the best in the world which will inspire much singing from the congregation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I have visited the Crystal Cathedral twice and it is actually a very beautiful church even though I prefer traditional church architecture. With some minor work it will be a very suitable Cathedral for the Diocese. Who says that they will have no icons or the tabernacle will be on the side? And the pipe organ in the Crystal Cathedral is one of the best in the world which will inspire much singing from the congregation.

I am sorry but that is where the problem lies. we are so concern about what is good for us and what we can do in Church that we have forgotten what is it that God is pleased with. instead it is all about us and what we want.

 

[Aeolian]

yeah, and that is why now the holy father has formed a commission to oversee the architeture of the CC. it is because many have forsaken the meaning of our Faith.

“…it is because many have forsaken the meaning of our Faith.”

What does that even mean in this context?

 

[Aeolian]

Your quote does not even make sense Aeolian. It is not personal taste I am expressing but reverance to the Eucharist, the Holy Liturgy, and how a place to worship God should be properly authenticated.

“reverance to the Eucharist” based on your personal opinion. That’s fine as long as you express it that way and until your personal opinions begin disagreeing with what the Catholic Church actually directs. I hope you understand that.

Also to say I am igorant that I compare certain Catholic churches is ignorant on your part. You wrong Aeolian. I see you as a modernist for sure. I’ve been to some terriblly designed Catholic churches which I think will not make a protestant think any different about what might be wrong with there faith or make them belive what they think is actually heretical.

Ad hominem.

You dont need St Peters to have a great architecture design by the way. Some real simple churches such as these small Byzatine Catholic chapels are beautiful and I could sit there all day and spend time in prayer, relfection or study. If you have not noticed by now, I love classic Eastern Christain Icons.

And?

 

[Aeolian]

The Jewish Temple is a perfect example of how God wants His House to be. that is how the CC has been designed for centuries until modernists decided that they know more than God.

Says who? You? There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that suggests Catholic churches should look like (one of) the “Jewish Temple.” Are you aware there was more than one? Here is what one of them looked like:

biblestudy.org/biblepic/model-of-second-temple-built-in-jerusalem.jpg

 

[wisdomseeker]

Says who? You? There is absolutely nothing in the Bible that suggests Catholic churches should look like (one of) the “Jewish Temple.” Are you aware there was more than one? Here is what one of them looked like:

biblestudy.org/biblepic/model-of-second-temple-built-in-jerusalem.jpg

I am not going to argue with you. obviously you dont know enough to reason on this subject.

 

[jasonjessica09]

“reverance to the Eucharist” based on your personal opinion. That’s fine as long as you express it that way and until your personal opinions begin disagreeing with what the Catholic Church actually directs. I hope you understand that.

Ad hominem.

And?

Opinion! Are you kidding me? What kind of kumbaya relatavist modernist theolgy are you listening to Aeolian? You sound like Stanford Nutting (look up who he is on youtube)