Crystal Cathedral board endorses offer from Diocese of Orange

[Dale_M]

Opinion! Are you kidding me? What kind of kumbaya relatavist modernist theolgy are you listening to Aeolian? )

JasonJessica, instead of resorting to insults perhaps it would be good to explain your viewpoint. Why do you think that the Crystal Cathedral is inherently incompatible with reverence to the Eucharist or the Holy Liturgy?

 

[rlg94086]

JasonJessica, instead of resorting to insults perhaps it would be good to explain your viewpoint. Why do you think that the Crystal Cathedral is inherently incompatible with reverence to the Eucharist or the Holy Liturgy?

I like more traditional spaces, but I think the Crystal Cathedral can be remodeled to be more traditional. I also like the fact that a Protestant church is being converted to a Cathedral for a change.

 

[Aeolian]

I am not going to argue with you. obviously you dont know enough to reason on this subject.

Do you honestly believe you are fooling anyone?

 

[Aeolian]

Opinion! Are you kidding me? What kind of kumbaya relatavist modernist theolgy are you listening to Aeolian? You sound like Stanford Nutting (look up who he is on youtube)

Don’t be rude. The garbage you typed above is unbecoming of any Christian no matter how good it might make you feel about yourself.

I re-read some of your comments and I truly have no idea what you are talking about. For example:

“Your quote does not even make sense Aeolian. It is not personal taste I am expressing but reverance to the Eucharist, the Holy Liturgy, and how a place to worship God should be properly authenticated.”

OK, you may not understand what I am talking about but ALL you are expressing is your personal taste, nothing more. You clearly equate it to “reverance to the Eucharist, the Holy Liturgy” but your opinion in no way makes it so. Further in this context I have no idea what you even mean by “properly authenticated”? Did you just make that up?

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending mod review.

 

[Robert_Bay]

MODERATOR NOTICE

Post charitably, discuss this issues not each other.

Review the forum rules posted at the top of the forum before posting.

 

[Muzhik]

The CCM seemed to be doing so well for so long and … what set of circumstances brought them to this terrible point? Millions in debt; 40+ million; the payment from the Catholic Diocese will just about pay the debt.

When they had a fund raiser recently, they collected almost nothing.

Haven’t read the whole thread, but did want to post this link:

Crystal Cathedral’s death in hindsight - insight from the founder’s granddaughter

Apparently there was a lot of infighting among the board, all of whom wanted to control the direction of CCM. It didn’t help that when the new senior pastor – Robert Schuller’s son – tried to cut the board’s salaries, they fired him.

As for the architectural style of the CC, I want to point out that one of the biggest reason the Bishop of Orange expressed in buying the Crystal Cathedral was because buying it would cost about a third of what building a new Cathedral would cost.

 

[Dale_M]

Apparently there was a lot of infighting among the board, all of whom wanted to control the direction of CCM. It didn’t help that when the new senior pastor – Robert Schuller’s son – tried to cut the board’s salaries, they fired him.

The transition from Robert Schuller, Sr. to his son did not go well. And the ouster of Robert Schuller, Jr., which was conducted with the support of many Schuller family members, made the situation worse. I think the fallout of this fighting is partly responsible for the drop in donations to CCM.

I was sorry to see that the daughter of Robert Schuller, Jr. chose to publish her article. I think it will add to the animosity on both sides.

As for the architectural style of the CC, I want to point out that one of the biggest reason the Bishop of Orange expressed in buying the Crystal Cathedral was because buying it would cost about a third of what building a new Cathedral would cost.

Yes, I am not a fan of the Crystal Cathedral’s architecture. But the purchase does seem economical. That the building is an established landmark with a national reputation is nice, but I suppose any Catholic cathedral would become a landmark with time.

 

[Muzhik]

I was sorry to see that the daughter of Robert Schuller, Jr. chose to publish her article. I think it will add to the animosity on both sides.

Yes, I am not a fan of the Crystal Cathedral’s architecture. But the purchase does seem economical. That the building is an established landmark with a national reputation is nice, but I suppose any Catholic cathedral would become a landmark with time.

I see your point, but I’m still glad she published her article. It answers questions that, while they may add to any animosity that is there, are questions that the financial supporters deserve to have answered.

 

[RobbyS]

The transition from Robert Schuller, Sr. to his son did not go well. And the ouster of Robert Schuller, Jr., which was conducted with the support of many Schuller family members, made the situation worse. I think the fallout of this fighting is partly responsible for the drop in donations to CCM.

I was sorry to see that the daughter of Robert Schuller, Jr. chose to publish her article. I think it will add to the animosity on both sides.

Yes, I am not a fan of the Crystal Cathedral’s architecture. But the purchase does seem economical. That the building is an established landmark with a national reputation is nice, but I suppose any Catholic cathedral would become a landmark with time.

An argument for clerical celebacy! But of course, the on-going scandals tell us that that sort of life does draw the unfit, and that too tender feelings about such people brings trouble,too.

 

[wondrousgnat]

It seems to be that if the diocese would put in a crucuifix, kneelers and stations of the cross and a few other cosmetic changes it might be quite nice. I don’t know what changes would be made but I would hate to prejudge.

A couple of years ago I visited a parish near me. It had been remodelled about ten years before from a Catholic parish built in the 1960s. It had no kneelers, no stations, no statues and the Crucifix was only slight largely than the one around my neck (no exaggerating here). I never went back. On another occasion I was visiting a parish and I asked some people if they could direct me to the nearest Catholic church. I was told I was in it. There was no obvious clue to me.
So, I think the Crystal Cathedral has a lot of potential if the bishop wants it to be Catholic.

 

[Muzhik]

A couple of years ago I visited a parish near me. It had been remodelled about ten years before from a Catholic parish built in the 1960s. It had no kneelers, no stations, no statues and the Crucifix was only slight largely than the one around my neck (no exaggerating here). I never went back. On another occasion I was visiting a parish and I asked some people if they could direct me to the nearest Catholic church. I was told I was in it. There was no obvious clue to me.

So, I think the Crystal Cathedral has a lot of potential if the bishop wants it to be Catholic.

I’ve only seen pictures of the Crystal Cathedral, so I may be off, but given the size of the place I think most of the main fixtures (altar, lectern, etc.) need to be large, if not massive. The altar, in particular, shouldn’t be some small, nicely carved table made of wood, but should be a big block of marble – perhaps purchased from one of the parishes being closed out east.

As for the crucifix over the altar (over the tabernacle?), I would suggest something in the “Christ Victorious” style. A good example can be seen in these photos of St. Andrew’s in Sibley, Iowa, where I grew up. The crucifix shows the crucified Jesus as Prophet, Priest, and King, and I think that style would fit in well with the current design of the Crystal Cathedral.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

It seems to be that if the diocese would put in a crucuifix, kneelers and stations of the cross and a few other cosmetic changes it might be quite nice. I don’t know what changes would be made but I would hate to prejudge.

A couple of years ago I visited a parish near me. It had been remodelled about ten years before from a Catholic parish built in the 1960s. It had no kneelers, no stations, no statues and the Crucifix was only slight largely than the one around my neck (no exaggerating here). I never went back. On another occasion I was visiting a parish and I asked some people if they could direct me to the nearest Catholic church. I was told I was in it. There was no obvious clue to me.
So, I think the Crystal Cathedral has a lot of potential if the bishop wants it to be Catholic.

Pray, pray, pray … that the Holy Spirit intervenes and puts the right words on everyone’s tongue(s). Just pray A LOT.

Your post triggered the following story:

I know the feeling. One time when I was traveling on business and happened upon a “Catholic Church” … and went inside for daily Mass … and I just was not really sure it was Catholic. The signs did not say it was a Catholic church. not sure where the Tabernacle was. Mass was in the little day chapel … the altar bread was a loaf of pumpernickel. No, really!! So I still was not sure. Some “guy” in civvies read the gospel. Still not sure. But then the “priest” stood up and gave the homily … and THEN I knew. I have NEVER heard a poor Protestant homily. BUT, this particular homily was so bad, so weak, so truly awful, … THAT’s when I knew for sure that I was in a Catholic church.

Apologies to everyone. Don’t mean to be disrespectful at all; just stating a fact. Things have gotten so bad in some places, that parishioners with money have flown to Rome and demanded … or in other ways directly complained to … the Holy Father to take action to fix egregious “issues”. [And he did.]

 

[Muzhik]

Apologies to everyone. Don’t mean to be disrespectful at all; just stating a fact. Things have gotten so bad in some places, that parishioners with money have flown to Rome and demanded the Holy Father take action to fix egregious “issues”. [And he did.]

Did the parishioners talk to their local bishop first? What was his response?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Did the parishioners talk to their local bishop first? What was his response?

[Could be more, actually.]

[But I want to be as charitable as humanly possible.]

[And the politics within the Vatican are pretty rough, as well. ]
[Apologies for going way off topic. But church architecture is part of the “issue” … do you remember all the controversies regarding “wreckovation”? And removal of the Tabernacles from the main body of the church? Bishops were writing letters about the “centrality of the Eucharist to Catholic worship”. It got pretty nasty.]

The sanctity of the Sanctuary got all turned around. Altar railings were removed. People received Holy Communion in the hand instead of on the tongue.

The pipes from the organ got removed from the choir loft to the altar itself.

All part and parcel of the same set of issues.**

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Found it: “LIturgical Time Bombs in Vatican II: The destruction of Catholic faith through changes in Catholic worship” by Michael Davies. 2003. Tan Books.

And on the frontispiece [the page facing the title page?] is a photograph of “Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, chief architect of the New Rite of Mass which was composed after Vatican Council II (1962 - 1965) and imposed upon the Church in 1969.”

“In 1975, Pope Paul VI took action to remove Archbishop Bugnini from his power position as Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship: the Holy Father dissolved the Congregation and assigned the Archbishop to Iran. (See p. 16.) Evidence shows that the Pope did this because he believed Archbishop Bugnini to be a Freemason. (See pp. 16-18) Archbishop Bugnini died in Tehran in 1982.”

“Archbishop Bugnini described the liturgical reform as ‘a major conquest of the Catholic Church.’ (See pp. 58-59.) The New Rite of Mass (Novus Ordo Missae) which was the centerpiece of that reform continues to be celebrated in almost every Catholic church (or the Roman Rite) in the entire world”.

[the three paragraphs above are copied directly from the frontispiece of Mr. Davies’ book.]

Apologies for rambling. But these issues are really major issues.

One newly assigned pastor complained to me [why me? I’m a nobody.] that the parish church did not even have a crucifix! Which is absolutely mandatory. And he almost got fired in getting one! And I even got asked to write a letter defending the pastor. [why me?? I really am just a nobody.]

 

[Muzhik]

One newly assigned pastor complained to me** [why me? I’m a nobody.]** that the parish church did not even have a crucifix! Which is absolutely mandatory. And he almost got fired in getting one! And I even got asked to write a letter defending the pastor. [why me?? I really am just a nobody.]

10 Now, go! I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people, the Israelites, out of Egypt.

11 But Moses said to God, “Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh and bring the Israelites out of Egypt?”
Exodus 3:10-11, NABRE

You really need to read all of Exodus 3 and 4, especially G_D’s reaction the fourth time after Moses asks G_D to send someone else. (Exodus 4:14a)

If not you, who? If not now, when?

 

[Dale_M]

News Update
Diocese gets blessing from Vatican to buy Crystal Cathedral

The Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange received the necessary approval this week from the Vatican to proceed with its purchase of the Crystal Cathedral at $57.5 million, officials said Wednesday.

The Pope’s approval, which came on Monday, is the last hurdle the diocese had to clear before sealing the deal, said Monsignor Douglas Cook, the diocese’s Canon Law expert and rector of Holy Family Cathedral in Orange.

ocregister.com/news/plan-329331-cathedral-diocese.html

The sale will be finalized on Dec. 30th.

 

[Faithdancer]

[QUOT*E=SteveSJr71;8619219]I have visited the Crystal Cathedral twice and it is actually a very beautiful church even though I prefer traditional church architecture. With some minor work it will be a very suitable Cathedral for the Diocese. Who says that they will have no icons or the tabernacle will be on the side? And the pipe organ in the Crystal Cathedral is one of the best in the world which will inspire much singing from the congregation.Anything that gets the congregation singing is A-OK with me. And I agree, it is a beautiful building. And even with the renovations it is going to save the Diocese a bundle.

 

[Filii_Dei]

I have no love for the architecture, but I like the symbolism behind this acquisition. 'Nuff said.