Cumorah

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SirThomasMore

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One thing that has puzzled me…

At the hill Cumorah, where Joe allegedly found the plates, at least two huge battles took place. LDS leaders have stated unequivocally that the Jaredites AND the Nephites/Lamanites had great battles at Cumorah where literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people were killed. We also read in the Book of Mormon that the Nephites used chariots pulled by horses.

Now, one of the lame excuses for no archeological proof of the B of M is that in Central America, the jungle ate everything and that the climate destroyed everything. I have long disputed this because the people, as most people, would have left the jungle alone and lives near lakes and oceans and in the higher elevations…all of which are plentiful in Central America, South America, and Mexico. However, for the sake of argument, lets accept that lame LDS excuse.

Another problem is, no one knows exactly where the BM allegedly took place. Some say Central America, some say South America, some say North America.

But, We KNOW that Cumorah is in New York. and we KNOW it does not have the climate and jungles of Central America. So, archeological evidence would be preserved…right?

IF all those hundreds of thousand of people died with ther battlements and chariots and horses, etc., why has no archeological been found?

Even more interesting, the CoLDS OWNS that land. Why hasn’t the CoLDS done ANY archeological digs to uncover all those bones and metal and chariot remains, etc.? It would seem to me that they would be digging night and day to uncover evidence that would give support to the plethora of leaders that claim Cumorah is THE place. It is the ONE place in all the BM that people KNOW BM activities occurred. Can;t find Boutiful…Can;t find Zerehemla, Can;t find nary a place…but we KNOW the battles took place at Cumorah. Yet, the CoLDS has done NOTHING to excavate and find evidence.

I propose that LDS leaders KNOW the BM is false and that the reason they have done ZERO excavation is because they KNOW they will find NOTHING.

More proof that the BM is false and the CoLDS is a false church and that it depends on lies and deceit to attract and keep its members.
 
Of course there are bones and chariots deep under Cumorah, just like there was buried treasure in Massachusetts that Smith went after… but never found.
 
One thing that has puzzled me…

At the hill Cumorah, where Joe allegedly found the plates, at least two huge battles took place. LDS leaders have stated unequivocally that the Jaredites AND the Nephites/Lamanites had great battles at Cumorah where literally hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people were killed. We also read in the Book of Mormon that the Nephites used chariots pulled by horses.

Now, one of the lame excuses for no archeological proof of the B of M is that in Central America, the jungle ate everything and that the climate destroyed everything. I have long disputed this because the people, as most people, would have left the jungle alone and lives near lakes and oceans and in the higher elevations…all of which are plentiful in Central America, South America, and Mexico. However, for the sake of argument, lets accept that lame LDS excuse.

Another problem is, no one knows exactly where the BM allegedly took place. Some say Central America, some say South America, some say North America.

But, We KNOW that Cumorah is in New York. and we KNOW it does not have the climate and jungles of Central America. So, archeological evidence would be preserved…right?

IF all those hundreds of thousand of people died with ther battlements and chariots and horses, etc., why has no archeological been found?

Even more interesting, the CoLDS OWNS that land. Why hasn’t the CoLDS done ANY archeological digs to uncover all those bones and metal and chariot remains, etc.? It would seem to me that they would be digging night and day to uncover evidence that would give support to the plethora of leaders that claim Cumorah is THE place. It is the ONE place in all the BM that people KNOW BM activities occurred. Can;t find Boutiful…Can;t find Zerehemla, Can;t find nary a place…but we KNOW the battles took place at Cumorah. Yet, the CoLDS has done NOTHING to excavate and find evidence.

I propose that LDS leaders KNOW the BM is false and that the reason they have done ZERO excavation is because they KNOW they will find NOTHING.

More proof that the BM is false and the CoLDS is a false church and that it depends on lies and deceit to attract and keep its members.
SirTMore- Isn’t this also the sight of the annual pageant in Palmyra?
What is the significance of Palmyra? I also understand this is where they re-enact the stories of the BoM.
 
I don’t understand, what are these people the Jaredites and the Nephites/Lamanites? Were they the early Native Americans who had chariots and horses? If so, did the building of chariots stop when the the nephites died? I ask because I never heard of the Native Americans riding chariots in the time where the americas were discovered by Europe.
 
I don’t understand, what are these people the Jaredites and the Nephites/Lamanites? Were they the early Native Americans who had chariots and horses? If so, did the building of chariots stop when the the nephites died? I ask because I never heard of the Native Americans riding chariots in the time where the americas were discovered by Europe.
Oh, my friend, this is just the beginning of things you’ve never heard of happening in the americas that is recorded in the BoM.

The ability to forge millions of swords (chariots, armor etc), millions of deaths caused by great battles but no bones found, non-existent ruins of great civilizations, the idea how one family could populate a whole civilization in a matter of a few years, no record of the BoM peoples from the Mayans etc or of their great battles…

The Mormons say the BoM is true and if it is not, then the whole religion falls like “a house of cards.” I firmly believe that most do not believe it is true but like being Mormon for other reasons and therefore do not dwell on the obvious problems with the BoM.
 
also puzzling…apparently, the nephites, Lamanites, jaredites all had all this wonderful steel, metal, chariots, etc, yet, oddly enough, after their death, all of this wonderful technology was lost, because all tribes in the Americas after that did not have any of this…
 
The only place in reality that has any parallel with Cumorah is Cahokia, and we do not know how that civilization fell. Probably with the epidemics that raged across the Americas with the advent of the Europeans. The BoM is a creative way of explaining those findings.
 
As much as I admire the mormon love of family and their good works, I’m very baffled at how such intelligent and respectful people could believe this type of thing. Belief in God doesn’t mean that common sense gets thrown out the window.
 
The only place in reality that has any parallel with Cumorah is Cahokia, and we do not know how that civilization fell. Probably with the epidemics that raged across the Americas with the advent of the Europeans. The BoM is a creative way of explaining those findings.
Several LDS Prophets have made it clear that THE Cumorah in New York is where these monstrous battles took place
 
SirTMore- Isn’t this also the sight of the annual pageant in Palmyra?
What is the significance of Palmyra? I also understand this is where they re-enact the stories of the BoM.
Yes. I have actually seen the Pageant (when I was LDS)

I have been to Palmyra three times, but only once when the pageant was on. It is actually very well done.
 
Several LDS Prophets have made it clear that THE Cumorah in New York is where these monstrous battles took place
Sure. Because the archaeological findings at Cahokia do not match the story of the BoM. :rotfl: Of course they could not make the link without proving their book to be fiction.
 
As much as I admire the mormon love of family and their good works, I’m very baffled at how such intelligent and respectful people could believe this type of thing. Belief in God doesn’t mean that common sense gets thrown out the window.
Actually it is one of the Devil’s favorite tricks to attempt to create a false incompatibility between faith and reason. It manifests in MANY ways and places in time from what you describe in Mormonism, to the Muslim idea of the “inscrutable will of Allah”, to fundamentalist protestant hostility to the fields of geology and biology today. We’ve not always been immune to it ourselves in the catholic church either, though, thanks to the intervention of the Holy Spirit, it has not corrupted catholic teaching, just our behavior sometimes (which is bad enough).

It is equally dangerous to exclusively rely upon reason at the expense of revelation as it is to rely exclusively on revelation without pondering and learning from apparent inconsistencies with reason and science. I say apparent, because in the end, it always turns out that genuine facts and genuine revelation always agree.
 
As much as I admire the mormon love of family and their good works, I’m very baffled at how such intelligent and respectful people could believe this type of thing. Belief in God doesn’t mean that common sense gets thrown out the window.
Perhaps, for many Mormons, whether the BoM is verifiable by means of archaeology, is less important, than whether the BoM acts as a conduit for the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Another possibility is that since “by their fruits, shall you know them”, the fruits of the LDS (strong families, community, work-ethic, etc.) are real and palpable, indicating that whatever archaeological problem the BoM may have, the BoM also acts in a powerful way on other levels of reality.
 
Well, I was at a Tennessee state park a few months ago that is called Old Stone Fort State Archaeological Park. The main attraction of the park are the 2000 year-old American Indian mounds. When I went there the first time with some family a few months ago I joked that Mormons would probably think these mounds were made by the Lamanites or Nephites.

*The Old Stone Fort is a 2000 year-old American Indian ceremonial site. It consists of mounds and walls that combine with cliffs and rivers to form an enclosure measuring 1-1/4 miles around. The 50-acre hilltop enclosure mound site is believed to have served as a central ceremonial gathering place for some 500 years. It has been identified as, perhaps, the most spectacularly sited sacred area of its period in the United States and the largest and most complex hilltop enclosure in the south. Settlers tended to name such enclosures “forts.”
*

tennessee.gov/environment/parks/OldStoneFort/
 
Perhaps, for many Mormons, whether the BoM is verifiable by means of archaeology, is less important, than whether the BoM acts as a conduit for the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Another possibility is that since “by their fruits, shall you know them”, the fruits of the LDS (strong families, community, work-ethic, etc.) are real and palpable, indicating that whatever archaeological problem the BoM may have, the BoM also acts in a powerful way on other levels of reality.
How can something that never happened act as a conduit for the prompting of the Holy Spirit? There is such a thing as the placebo effect even in religion.

The Mormons I know are a mixed bag. Some work hard, some do not. Some have parented well, some not. I live in Utah and can tell you that there is no perfect sense of community. Everybody has their problems and struggles. I am amazed at how many times I have read on some threads how great and wonderful the Mormons are therefore their religion must be true. I can tell you a list of problems that my friends and neighbors have and they are no different than the problems of others I know that are not LDS.

Please explain how the BoM acts in a powerful way on other levels of reality? Nothing Mormons do in their daily lives come from the Book of Mormon. Temple rituals, scouts, missions, family home evening, etc are not from the BoM. Nothing JS ever said was from the BoM.

Anyway, the BoM is a huge problem for the Mormons. One can hide behind the clean-cut families for only so long. Eventually people who like to think (and not just “do”) begin to ask questions.
 
No Mormon will touch this thread because there can be no answer…at least, no good answer for THEM. Hundreds of Thousand of people die with chariots and horses and instead of an excavation to prove the BM, they hold a pageant
 
Come on, Mormons…explain why the ONLY place from the Book of Mormon that y’all actually know where it is is the ONE place y’all refuse excavate…
 
Several LDS Prophets have made it clear that THE Cumorah in New York is where these monstrous battles took place
Here is a letter from the First Presidency of the LDS Church attesting to it:

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