Cumorah

[Returning_Home]

We can agree that the complexity of the BoM can be explained by multiple authorship. What we disagree about is when it was written.

There’s actually no evidence that he BOM was authored by more than one person because when you look at the 1830 edition, we find the same spelling and grammatical mistakes throughout the book. We then find those same mistakes and idioms in Smith’s own writing. The chiasmus angle is also a sham; we find it D&C, too, which means it has nothing to do with divinity at all.

There’s really no argument about when it was written either because it obviously dates to at least 1611 since the text makes it clear that the writer was familiar with the KJV. It also includes commentary on religious and secular topics common in Smith’s day (salvation, infant baptism, origin of the Indians, blacks), moving the date to at least 1800.

All of the evidence that Mormon apologists use to show that the BOM is ancient is a sham to cover up the fact that Smith wrote the book and passed it off as antiquity.

 

[mark_a]

Another possibility is that since “by their fruits, shall you know them”, the fruits of the LDS (strong families, community, work-ethic, etc.) are real and palpable, indicating that whatever archaeological problem the BoM may have, the BoM also acts in a powerful way on other levels of reality.

I can see how that might work.

Of course, I’ve read that there is no archeological evidence of the Israelite Book of Exodus either.

 

[Returning_Home]

Hi Parker - Yes, I understand the Mormon defense as to why there is no evidence of the battles at the Hill Cumorah. But, to make this claim, the church would have to excavate first.

To not excavate, but to have answers to naysayers at the ready, makes no sense.

So, the original question still remains - why not excavate the site? If nothing is found, then form your defense. But to do it the other way around is illogical.

There are videos on YouTube that attempt to address this, by saying that the ‘battle mounds’ all over New England are evidence of the bodies of the dead being burind in a hurry; the implication is that these bodies are those of people killed at Cumorah, explaining the reason that nothing has ever been found there.

The Indian burial mounds are just that and have nothing to do with fictioanl books or people that never existed.

 

[LongJourney]

So long as we both recognize that it is a recent work, there is no reason to argue.

There’s actually no evidence thatt he BOM was authored by more than one person because when you look at the 1830 edition, we find the same spelling and grammatical mistakes throughout the book. We then find those same mistakes and idioms in Smith’s own writing.

However, JS apparently dictated the final version, making changes as he read the source documents. That is still plagiarism.

 

[twopekinguys]

So long as we both recognize that it is a recent work, there is no reason to argue. However, JS apparently dictated the final version, making changes as he read the source documents. That is still plagiarism.

 

[ParkerD]

But Parker - doesn’t God want everyone to be saved?

Why would he have us depend on “scripture” that can’t even be proven? There is David’s Temple, ancient churches and civilizations, etc that help back up the Bible. We know much of these people and places existed and more are being discovered all the time. This is critical because God wants to help people come to the faith.

I want you and everyone to feel that God’s Word is relevant for them! Any road blocks or questions should be brought forward and aired out - not dismissed!

Lax16,
I agree that “God wants everyone to be saved”. But not by force, not by the non-exercise of their own choice, and not by having to have every faith question proven by physical evidence. There is a relevant thinking process that says as a person grows in faith, they become more like Peter who walked on the water while exerting the kind of unruffled and unsullied faith in Christ, even while watching Him, that we ought to want in our lives. Yet when Peter looked at the reality of the storm and the reality that his feet were not sinking in the water, he doubted and sank and cried for help. Did his faith need to grow? (I hope the answer would be yes if someone asks themselves that question.)

A person in Australia or anywhere on earth can read the Bible, feel the truth of its words, and be strengthened thereby, with no thought for whether they have either seen or read about archeological evidence that the Bible is a true record or about real people. The existence or not of archeological or historical evidence has no bearing on whether such a person can glean truths from the Bible to help them in their life, and to ultimately follow the path Christ and the apostles taught should be followed to be “saved” and also to be brought toward happiness and peace in their life.

 

[Returning_Home]

So long as we both recognize that it is a recent work, there is no reason to argue. However, JS apparently dictated the final version, making changes as he read the source documents. That is still plagiarism.

I haven’t researched the Spaulding angle because as far as I’m concerned, Smith had the ability to write most of the book himself. And even if the Spaulding manuscript wasn’t involved, the amount of the New Testament in it shows clear evidence of plagiarism.

 

[lax16]

There are videos on YouTube that attempt to address this, by saying that the ‘battle mounds’ all over New England are evidence of the bodies of the dead being burind in a hurry; the implication is that these bodies are those of people killed at Cumorah, explaining the reason that nothing has ever been found there.

The Indian burial mounds are just that and have nothing to do with fictioanl books or people that never existed.

Well, dead people are only one part of this. What about the dwellings that would need to exist to house these millions of people, plus their places of worship, pottery for food, etc.? Did they grow their own food? Hunt? How could millions of people sustain themselves in one area without hunting or planting crops? If they were hunters, they would need to follow the herds. If they planted, there would be signs of irrigation.

Did they build dwellings? Bath houses? - these buildings can’t just “go away.”

Also, I would assume that in this great battle only male adults/teenagers fought. How did all of the women and children die off?

 

[campeador]

That last sentence is certainly true, and thus the question becomes “who is being victimized by whom?” or “who is being honest?”–and those who believe the Spaulding theories can easily be figured out as having been victimized if any of those same people seriously reads the Book of Mormon…

Friend Parker, as good Christians, we shouldn’t be seriously reading any other gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 :

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach (to you) a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
As we have said before, and now I say again, if anyone preaches to you a gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed!

…with a sense of honesty in their heart of hearts and any knowledge at all about the complexity of creating literary tone, voices, flash-backs, and authenticity…

And what about a sense of honesty about the complexity of ‘cleaning up’ battlefields in which hundreds of thousands of people lay dead?

Archeologists have located Homer’s Troy. They’ve found the location of some of the battles of Alexander the Great as he conquered the known world. They’ve discovered 3,200 year old Egyptian chariot parts in central Israel. These events happened long before the supposed battles in the BOM.

 

[twopekinguys]

Well, dead people are only one part of this. What about the dwellings that would need to exist to house these millions of people, plus their places of worship, pottery for food, etc.? Did they grow their own food? Hunt? How could millions of people sustain themselves in one area without hunting or planting crops? If they were hunters, they would need to follow the herds. If they planted, there would be signs of irrigation.

Did they build dwellings? Bath houses? - these buildings can’t just “go away.”

Also, I would assume that in this great battle only male adults/teenagers fought. How did all of the women and children die off?

Doesn’t the BoM also talk about steel and concrete with these people?

 

[Returning_Home]

Well, dead people are only one part of this. What about the dwellings that would need to exist to house these millions of people, plus their places of worship, pottery for food, etc.? Did they grow their own food? Hunt? How could millions of people sustain themselves in one area without hunting or planting crops? If they were hunters, they would need to follow the herds. If they planted, there would be signs of irrigation.

Did they build dwellings? Bath houses? - these buildings can’t just “go away.”

Also, I would assume that in this great battle only male adults/teenagers fought. How did all of the women and children die off?

Valid questions, all. I agree 100%; where are all those things? I seem to recall the BOM saying something about buildings all across the land and then they were all gone, just dust in the wind (Kansas anyone?).

This is one of the reasons that most Mormons have accepted that the BOM sites are in Meso-America, in spite of not one shred of proof to sustain any such assumption.

The women and children Nephites and Jaredites were wiped out in a Holocaust-like extermination as I understand.

Of note is if the Lamanites won the final battle and became the American Indians, why don’t we see Native Americans with ‘filthy, dark, and loathesome’ black skin? And wouldn’t at least a few retain some vestige of the names used in the BOM, like the Lamanite heroes Laman or Lemuel?

 

[lax16]

Valid questions, all. I agree 100%; where are all those things? I seem to recall the BOM saying something about buildings all across the land and then they were all gone, just dust in the wind (Kansas anyone?).

This is one of the reasons that most Mormons have accepted that the BOM sites are in Meso-America, in spite of not one shred of proof to sustain any such assumption.

The women and children Nephites and Jaredites were wiped out in a Holocaust-like extermination as I understand.

Of note is if the Lamanites won the final battle and became the American Indians, why don’t we see Native Americans with ‘filthy, dark, and loathesome’ black skin? And wouldn’t at least a few retain some vestige of the names used in the BOM, like the Lamanite heroes Laman or Lemuel?

Yes, the questions could go on forever, couldn’t they?!

However, the Mormon church has stated that the Hill Cumorah is in New York in the America discovered by Columbus. Period. How can they now claim Meso-America? It’s absurd.

Who wiped out the women and children? Not even one child survived? Never heard of such a thing!

Not to mention the absolutely meticulous story-telling of the Native Americans - it would have been passed down for sure.

 

[ParkerD]

Friend Parker, as good Christians, we shouldn’t be seriously reading any other gospel.

Galatians 1:8-9 :

And what about a sense of honesty about the complexity of ‘cleaning up’ battlefields in which hundreds of thousands of people lay dead?

Archeologists have located Homer’s Troy. They’ve found the location of some of the battles of Alexander the Great as he conquered the known world. They’ve discovered 3,200 year old Egyptian chariot parts in central Israel. These events happened long before the supposed battles in the BOM.

Campeador,
You asked for honesty. Here you go as to the passage in Galatians:

“Another gospel” would be a gospel that does not see that Peter declared that Christ is the Rock, and that there is no other rock upon which the gospel is based.

“Another gospel” would be a gospel that does not see that Christ fulfilled the prophecy by Isaiah (22:22-23) that the key of David would be upon Christ’s shoulder as He opens the doors of hell through His suffering of the atonement and His offer of grace and redemption.

“Another gospel” would replace the free will and choice of individuals to make personal covenants with the supposed free will and choice of parents (acting out of constraint due to misunderstanding the Bible) making the choice of being “born again” for an infant instead of waiting to allow the infant to grow into a person who can make their own personal choice and thus enter into a true covenant relationship.

As to the battlefield and bodily remains, are you saying that every battlefield place in the world that has ever been in all of time can be identified through bodily remains, and that the evidence is merely sitting there for all to see?

 

[lax16]

I can see how that might work.

Of course, I’ve read that there is no archeological evidence of the Israelite Book of Exodus either.

There may not be archaeological evidence of the Book of Exodus but there are cross-references that can collaborate that (at least) some of the events could/did take place.

Most importantly though, is that the oral tradition has survived. The Jews still commemorate the Exodus every year at Passover and have for thousands of years!

The Book of Mormon people left nothing. Not a pot, not a story, not a trace. What good did their existence do for the rest of us? Hasn’t everything in the Bible translated into something for future generations to learn from?

 

[ParkerD]

Well, dead people are only one part of this. What about the dwellings that would need to exist to house these millions of people, plus their places of worship, pottery for food, etc.? Did they grow their own food? Hunt? How could millions of people sustain themselves in one area without hunting or planting crops? If they were hunters, they would need to follow the herds. If they planted, there would be signs of irrigation.

Did they build dwellings? Bath houses? - these buildings can’t just “go away.”

Also, I would assume that in this great battle only male adults/teenagers fought. How did all of the women and children die off?

Men, women, children–everyone were killed or joined the opposing force.

The Cumorah area was not stated to have been anywhere near where they lived. They gathered there for the battle, but came from locations far away from there based on reading the description of events. They lived in small villages, mostly in wood dwellings or tents and some few using “cement” (which could mean “adobe”).

Have you ever read about how many Native Americans were in North America and Central and South America in 1492, or in 1600, or in 1700? Where are all of the evidences that they lived where they lived? Where are all of the evidences of their battles, their commerce, and their origins?

Anyone who thinks they have detailed archeological or even linguistic information about every single tribal group who ever lived in the Americas, must have not done much research or they would realize that such an assertion would be impossible to make with any sense of having probed the subject thoroughly.

 

[LongJourney]

such an assertion would be impossible to make

Mormon apologists use the word “assertion” liberally, when discussing critic’s reasoning and information, without taking a look at their own “assertion” (statement without supporting evidence) that the BoM is sacred scripture.

 

[lax16]

Men, women, children–everyone were killed or joined the opposing force.

The Cumorah area was not stated to have been anywhere near where they lived. They gathered there for the battle, but came from locations far away from there based on reading the description of events. They lived in small villages, mostly in wood dwellings or tents and some few using “cement” (which could mean “adobe”).

Have you ever read about how many Native Americans were in North America and Central and South America in 1492, or in 1600, or in 1700? Where are all of the evidences that they lived where they lived? Where are all of the evidences of their battles, their commerce, and their origins?

Anyone who thinks they have detailed archeological or even linguistic information about every single tribal group who ever lived in the Americas, must have not done much research or they would realize that such an assertion would be impossible to make with any sense of having probed the subject thoroughly.

Like I said, I have just finished a book on the life of Sacagawea. There is loads of information in that little book about various Indian tribes. The tribes did not number in the hundereds of thousands or the millions!

Every single trible in America??? Parker, we are talking about a huge civilization, not a tribe!!!

All I care about is North America because the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints explained that this is where the battles took place. I for one will not listen to these other “possible locations” because I saw the information from the LDS church myself. As a thinking individual, I can determine that the church has had a very definite teaching as to the location. New York. America (Columbus’ America).

So, millions of people show up for a battle…did they die off within two days or did they need to eat, drink and sleep somewhere for a while? They were tent dwellers? But they forged metals into millions of swords and shields? I thought tent dwellers were wanderers? How could they wander after food and have time to make all of the necessary weaponry?
So these people of the same “tribe” lived apart but came together to fight this battle?

How come the other Native American tribes that were in living in North America at the time do not speak of the BoM peoples?

If Jesus appeared to the Natives, word would have spread throughout the tribes.

Does anybody know how many people were living in North America at the time of the BoM?

 

[lax16]

Mormon apologists use the word “assertion” liberally, when discussing critic’s reasoning and information, without taking a look at their own “assertion” (statement without supporting evidence) that the BoM is sacred scripture.

Yes, the Mormon posters that I have conversed with on CAF are very well-versed in their criticism of the Early Church and Her Leaders. However, they are very generous about the mistakes or inconsistencies of the BoM or with the early church leaders of the LDS church.

 

[lax16]

Doesn’t the BoM also talk about steel and concrete with these people?

Steel, iron, brass, copper, coins, weapons, chariots, wheels, linen, silk, horses, cement…

 

[twopekinguys]

Steel, iron, brass, copper, coins, weapons, chariots, wheels, linen, silk, horses, cement…

All missing…hmmmmm

Yet the BoM is supposed to be the most accurate book of all?