Cumorah

[Returning_Home]

Now that’s a question that made me go…say, what?

If they didn’t leave remains behind, how would we know they were ‘great civilizations?" In actuality, we do have several civilizations, the remains of which are very slim and mysterious. We have no way of knowing how "great’ they were. Some of those 'remains" are simply mentions in the records of other civilizations. Those settlements that are hidden beneith the Black Sea, for instance…or the Clovis people…or the Anasazi…

The Anasazi? Are you kidding? They left entire cities behind to testify of their existance; I’ve been to Mesa Verde, it’s real, and unlike Zarahemla, actually exists.

And bringing up the Clovis culture actually undermines your claims of being Christians since it stands in opposition of the young earth position of earth’s creation. Still, they left behind more than the fictional Lamanites and Nephites.

 

[ParkerD]

1. Well, many Protestant Christian scholars have now come to agree that Peter is the Rock after years of questioning the meaning of Petros and petra. I strongly suggest reading the research on this subject from the Christian Monthly Standard under Peter, The Rock, and The Confession at christianmonthlystandard.com/

Donald A. Hagner/Fuller Theological Seminary says:
"The natural reading of the passage…is that it is Peter who is the rock upon which the church is to be built…The frequent attempts that have been made, largely in the past, to deny this favor of the view that the confession itself is the rock…seem to be largely motivated by Protestant prejudice against a passage that is used by the Roman Catholics to justify the papacy.

David Hill
Presbyterian minister and Senior Lecturer in the Dept of Biblical Studies says:
"On this rock I will build my church: the word-play goes back to Aramaic tradition. It is on Peter himself, the confessor of his Messiahship, that Jesus will build the Church…Attempts to interpret the “rock” as something other than Peter in person are due to Protestant bias…

“Another gospel” would be a gospel that does not see that Christ fulfilled the prophecy by Isaiah (22:22-23) that the key of David would be upon Christ’s shoulder as He opens the doors of hell through His suffering of the atonement and His offer of grace and redemption.

1. Even your prophet has said that the Mormon Jesus is not the same Jesus that the Christians follow.

“Another gospel” would replace the free will and choice of individuals to make personal covenants with the supposed free will and choice of parents (acting out of constraint due to misunderstanding the Bible) making the choice of being “born again” for an infant instead of waiting to allow the infant to grow into a person who can make their own personal choice and thus enter into a true covenant relationship.

1. Do you think a seven year old is free from parental pressure to make a personal choice that is a covenant relationship? I can see if you were arguing adult baptism, but infants vs 7year olds?

As to the battlefield and bodily remains, are you saying that every battlefield place in the world that has ever been in all of time can be identified through bodily remains, and that the evidence is merely sitting there for all to see?

1. Can you say that you know of any great civilizations that didn’t leave behind remains? Why would it have to be bodily remains as opposed to weaponry, pottery (they did eat and drink), etc

Lax16,

1. The problem with those supposed scholars is that they don’t even look at the fact that Peter himself did not describe himself as “the rock” upon which the church was to be founded. Peter described Christ as that rock, of course. Peter knew the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Christ’s life and mission. There need be none of the mystique surrounding the passage in Matthew 16 if a person takes the passage in 1 Peter and takes the “key of David” passage in Isaiah 22:22-23 plus the “key of David” passage in Revelation 3:7 and understands the atonement and prophecies about the atonement and about the rejection of the “stone” by the builders (the Jews). So as far as I’m concerned, those supposed scholars are myopic.
2. Mormons believe the atonement has far greater meaning than other religions do, and that Jesus has far greater power than other religions do. So, yes, Mormons do not believe in exactly the same set of beliefs about Jesus that other religions have about Jesus, the Messiah, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Firstborn, Alpha and Omega.
3. I have had eight seven-year-olds who at age eight made a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, and yes they knew what they were doing and have shown that by continuing in that covenant relationship during the subsequent years. They made a free will choice about their decision to be baptized.

Eight year olds can make a covenant decision, and it be meaningful in their life. They don’t have to wait until adulthood to make meaningful decisions for themselves.

1. You may not have read my earlier comment that those people in that last people were not fighting in their “back yard”–they had come from far away, and the only reason was to have the battle they knew they were going to have. They didn’t move their belongings there, particularly since the entire upheaval going on among them included that all possessions had to be held in one’s hands or they would be stolen immediately–that is what was happening among them.

To have the expectation that just because cities have been identified in the Middle East from ancient groups of people (not all, but some), the circumstances are the same and the square mileage of the potential places to look or to excavate are the same (one must be kidding by looking at the two maps) seems to me to be a pretty implausible expectation.

But yet I have no trouble that such an approach allows people to scoff, and thus justify their own conclusions. That is human nature. It’s what people do. Some spend their entire lives justifying their decisions by scoffing at the decisions of others who made different decisions than they did. A person following the Savior ought to put their hand to the plow and not have to look behind them constantly and re-justify why they do what they do (i.e. “looking back”).

The gospel is one of looking forward with joy and a path of growth that looks forward and has meaning. The gospel does that for me, and for many other people whose lives are intertwined and thus I have close enough relationships with them to see that it does that for them also. This is what having a covenant relationship with Christ is all about.

 

[Ahimsa]

Trying to bring South America in now to take a little heat off, eh?

Mesoamerica isn’t South America.

 

[Catholic20064]

We rehash these issues so often here. The Mormons and non-Mormons bring up the same points. The Mormons never show anything plausible to refute the non-Mormons on these issues. That Mormons hold on with such tenacity to nonsense makes me wonder if they really are ready to learn anything. It is as if they live in an alternative universe. Hopefully, God will send His Holy Spirit to them so they can be open to reality.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Americas includes the two American continents. Upstate NY isn’t the only possible location of events related to the BoM.

since this thread is about Cumorah, your comments are red herrings. I still say you post like whyme

 

[SirThomasMore]

“Another gospel” would be a gospel that does not see that Christ fulfilled the prophecy by Isaiah (22:22-23) that the key of David would be upon Christ’s shoulder as He opens the doors of hell through His suffering of the atonement and His offer of grace and redemption.

“Another gospel” would replace the free will and choice of individuals to make personal covenants with the supposed free will and choice of parents (acting out of constraint due to misunderstanding the Bible) making the choice of being “born again” for an infant instead of waiting to allow the infant to grow into a person who can make their own personal choice and thus enter into a true covenant relationship.

As to the battlefield and bodily remains, are you saying that every battlefield place in the world that has ever been in all of time can be identified through bodily remains, and that the evidence is merely sitting there for all to see?

Lax16,

1. The problem with those supposed scholars is that they don’t even look at the fact that Peter himself did not describe himself as “the rock” upon which the church was to be founded. Peter described Christ as that rock, of course. Peter knew the Old Testament prophecies fulfilled by Christ’s life and mission. There need be none of the mystique surrounding the passage in Matthew 16 if a person takes the passage in 1 Peter and takes the “key of David” passage in Isaiah 22:22-23 plus the “key of David” passage in Revelation 3:7 and understands the atonement and prophecies about the atonement and about the rejection of the “stone” by the builders (the Jews). So as far as I’m concerned, those supposed scholars are myopic.
2. Mormons believe the atonement has far greater meaning than other religions do, and that Jesus has far greater power than other religions do. So, yes, Mormons do not believe in exactly the same set of beliefs about Jesus that other religions have about Jesus, the Messiah, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Firstborn, Alpha and Omega.
3. I have had eight seven-year-olds who at age eight made a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, and yes they knew what they were doing and have shown that by continuing in that covenant relationship during the subsequent years. They made a free will choice about their decision to be baptized.

Eight year olds can make a covenant decision, and it be meaningful in their life. They don’t have to wait until adulthood to make meaningful decisions for themselves.

1. You may not have read my earlier comment that those people in that last people were not fighting in their “back yard”–they had come from far away, and the only reason was to have the battle they knew they were going to have. They didn’t move their belongings there, particularly since the entire upheaval going on among them included that all possessions had to be held in one’s hands or they would be stolen immediately–that is what was happening among them.

To have the expectation that just because cities have been identified in the Middle East from ancient groups of people (not all, but some), the circumstances are the same and the square mileage of the potential places to look or to excavate are the same (one must be kidding by looking at the two maps) seems to me to be a pretty implausible expectation.

But yet I have no trouble that such an approach allows people to scoff, and thus justify their own conclusions. That is human nature. It’s what people do. Some spend their entire lives justifying their decisions by scoffing at the decisions of others who made different decisions than they did. A person following the Savior ought to put their hand to the plow and not have to look behind them constantly and re-justify why they do what they do (i.e. “looking back”).

The gospel is one of looking forward with joy and a path of growth that looks forward and has meaning. The gospel does that for me, and for many other people whose lives are intertwined and thus I have close enough relationships with them to see that it does that for them also. This is what having a covenant relationship with Christ is all about.

typical LDS red herrings. This is about CUMORAH and the fact that millions of people allegedly died there and instead of excavating to prove your book, you hold pageants there to distract from from the truth

 

[SirThomasMore]

Mesoamerica isn’t South America.

true…but I have LIVED in Mesoamerica. There is no evidence of the Book of Mormon there, either.

 

[LongJourney]

It did NOT happen in meso-America.

mormonmesoamerica.com/

So, what are the alternatives? The only thing you have left is North America, more specifically, East Coast and the Great Lakes. THAT is what the thread is about.

 

[Catholic20064]

It did NOT happen in meso-America.

mormonmesoamerica.com/

So, what are the alternatives? The only thing you have left is North America, more specifically, East Coast and the Great Lakes. THAT is what the thread is about.

The Mesoamerican theory was chosen by so-called Mormon scholars because they couldn’t fit the Book of Mormon into the Great Lakes area. The two Cumorah theory was invented to compensate for the lack of evidence in the Cumorah, New York area. I never could figure out the logic behind the two Cumorah theory when I was an active Mormon. It just seemed contrived. I finally gave up on explaining away the problems and tried to live on faith alone in the prophet’s writings. That dried up and I wound up heading to Protestant churches and then finally wound up in Catholicism a little over four years ago.

 

[PaulDupre]

Was there even a demand by treasure hunters back in the days of the BoM?
What can one do with all of that stuff and how would they haul it off? Where would they take it? Who would they trade with? There were no museums…

It’s not even that. Okay, the enemy forces may have scavanged all the weapons they could find. That still leaves bodies, campgrounds for all those troops and the mess they leave behind - cooking fires, butchered animal remains, latrines, weapons repair materials, medical supplies, food and water containers (pottery and such) and all the other junk that an army leaves in its wake. You cannot have 500,000+ soldiers with all their families and logistic support personnel in an area for several days (easily well over a million people), have a huge war, kill 230,000 soldiers and all their familes and support personnel (and probably a lot of animals) and leave absolutely no trace. It is simply impossible.

Archaeologists have found artifacts and battle sites from battles fought by the ancient Etruscans where there were fewer than 1,000 soldiers involved. I’m sure that if the BoM battles had really happened, there would be ample artifactual evidence.

The truth is, the BoM is a 19-century work of fiction. The LDS church will eventually be forced to admit that fact.

 

[lax16]

Parker - *Supposed *scholars? Myopic? Protestants admitting Peter is the Rock is myopic thinking??
I am not referring to them because they back my position but because 1) they are professionals in their field 2) they are not Catholic
3) the research involved several independent scholars coming to the same conclusion 4) and I know that Fuller Seminary attracts some of the brightest biblical scholars in the world. How can you dismiss their work completely? Did you read the research presented?

1. Mormons believe the atonement has far greater meaning than other religions do, and that Jesus has far greater power than other religions do. So, yes, Mormons do not believe in exactly the same set of beliefs about Jesus that other religions have about Jesus, the Messiah, the Only Begotten Son of God, the Prince of Peace, the Firstborn, Alpha and Omega.

**I don’t think that is why it has been determined that the Mormon Jesus is different than that of other religions. It was never taught that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer until JS taught it. Among other differences. And he wasn’t a polygamist either.
Atonement - not sure about that. Can you please explain what Mormons believe that has far greater meaning than every other religion? **3)

I have had eight seven-year-olds who at age eight made a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ, and yes they knew what they were doing and have shown that by continuing in that covenant relationship during the subsequent years. They made a free will choice about their decision to be baptized.

Eight year olds can make a covenant decision, and it be meaningful in their life. They don’t have to wait until adulthood to make meaningful decisions for themselves.

I know a lot about seven year olds and sacraments. I agree that when prepared properly, they can enter into a sacrament (covenant) with great understanding. I also know that parents have EVERYTHING to do with getting them to classes and reinforcing it at home. I have been to a Mormon baptism. It was very "giggly."

1. You may not have read my earlier comment that those people in that last people were not fighting in their “back yard”–they had come from far away, and the only reason was to have the battle they knew they were going to have. They didn’t move their belongings there, particularly since the entire upheaval going on among them included that all possessions had to be held in one’s hands or they would be stolen immediately–that is what was happening among them.

**Please cite the scripture from the Book of Mormon that explains where they came from and how this battle started. I always thought they fought because they were in proximity to each other, but you are telling me otherwise. **

To have the expectation that just because cities have been identified in the Middle East from ancient groups of people (not all, but some), the circumstances are the same and the square mileage of the potential places to look or to excavate are the same (one must be kidding by looking at the two maps) seems to me to be a pretty implausible expectation.

**The difference is Parker we live here in the America of Columbus, upstate NY is very accessible and free from terrorism and the LDS church could set up camp (like I saw on the news the other night a group of NY students are doing right now here in Utah at the old Hawaiian settlement) and spend years excavating. The shopping district dowtown SLC has taken years! Every time I am detoured in downtown SLC and see all the equipment and men working, I think
“now why don’t they spend the time, money, and manpower to excavate? Certainly, it wouldn’t cost billions to do it.” It is a logical question. Besides, I’ve been all over NY - it’s not that big!
**
But yet I have no trouble that such an approach allows people to scoff, and thus justify their own conclusions. That is human nature. It’s what people do. Some spend their entire lives justifying their decisions by scoffing at the decisions of others who made different decisions than they did. A person following the Savior ought to put their hand to the plow and not have to look behind them constantly and re-justify why they do what they do (i.e. “looking back”).

I don’t know what you mean about scoffing. I find the LDS constantly “bagging on (scoffing?)” at the Early Church Fathers. I think Mormons are “Monday morning quarterbacks.” All the work against heretics etc and yet still criticism. I am not scoffing. I am demanding answers to logical questions!

The gospel is one of looking forward with joy and a path of growth that looks forward and has meaning. The gospel does that for me, and for many other people whose lives are intertwined and thus I have close enough relationships with them to see that it does that for them also. This is what having a covenant relationship with Christ is all about.

**Parker - I am glad that you are happy in your faith. Jesus is wonderful! But, you must admit, there is a lot to study and question. Two thousand years worth. Some people like to keep things as they are, some like to dig deeper and grow in faith. **

 

[lax16]

Mesoamerica isn’t South America.

Thank you for the correction Ahimsa! I have been saying it wrong in conversations as well.
Central America!

 

[Returning_Home]

Really?

OF course, first you have to get all the “Christians” to sign onto the “Christian” side of the translation.

Since we have, quite literally, thousands of Christian belief systems that deny Christianity to each other, that might be a problem.

We are on the same side which is why you’re always on the defensive. The jesus of Mormonism isn’t the Jesus of the Bible.

And, as I’ve already pointed out, Joseph Smith cast the first stone when he called every other church on earth ‘an abomination before God.’ If they were an abomination in Smith’s day and teach essentially the same thing now as they did then, how are they no longer abominable?

 

[lax16]

The Mesoamerican theory was chosen by so-called Mormon scholars because they couldn’t fit the Book of Mormon into the Great Lakes area. The two Cumorah theory was invented to compensate for the lack of evidence in the Cumorah, New York area. I never could figure out the logic behind the two Cumorah theory when I was an active Mormon. It just seemed contrived. I finally gave up on explaining away the problems and tried to live on faith alone in the prophet’s writings. That dried up and I wound up heading to Protestant churches and then finally wound up in Catholicism a little over four years ago.

Catholic20064-

When did they shift to the Mesoamerican theory/two Cumorah theory?

The article I have on the subject where the church states they know NY is the location is from 1975. (I printed it out - I think someday it might become a collector’s item!)

I also read where a Mormon was claiming the only reason BYU professors were trying to bring Central America into the act was to generate travel agent profits. I have always wondered why the travel agencies around here (Utah) offer these trips to Central America and call them Mormon excursions. Do they consider it part of their history?

 

[lax16]

It’s not even that. Okay, the enemy forces may have scavanged all the weapons they could find. That still leaves bodies, campgrounds for all those troops and the mess they leave behind - cooking fires, butchered animal remains, latrines, weapons repair materials, medical supplies, food and water containers (pottery and such) and all the other junk that an army leaves in its wake. You cannot have 500,000+ soldiers with all their families and logistic support personnel in an area for several days (easily well over a million people), have a huge war, kill 230,000 soldiers and all their familes and support personnel (and probably a lot of animals) and leave absolutely no trace. It is simply impossible.

Archaeologists have found artifacts and battle sites from battles fought by the ancient Etruscans where there were fewer than 1,000 soldiers involved. I’m sure that if the BoM battles had really happened, there would be ample artifactual evidence.

The truth is, the BoM is a 19-century work of fiction. The LDS church will eventually be forced to admit that fact.

Absolutely!

I have heard Mormons say that treasure hunters stole artifacts to sell to private parties in Europe. I have to wonder - who would want it? Wouldn’t they have sold to a museum by now?

The LDS here on CAF have claimed that if the Book of Mormon is false, then the whole religion falls like a house of cards.

 

[Returning_Home]

When did they shift to the Mesoamerican theory/two Cumorah theory?

The article I have on the subject where the church states they know NY is the location is from 1975. (I printed it out - I think someday it might become a collector’s item!)

I also read where a Mormon was claiming the only reason BYU professors were trying to bring Central America into the act was to generate travel agent profits. I have always wondered why the travel agencies around here (Utah) offer these trips to Central America and call them Mormon excursions. Do they consider it part of their history?

I don’t know that there’s a firm date as to when this occurred, but that it did only as a response to being continually unable to answer the tough questions.

The part about travel plans is a byproduct and has nothing to do with the church’s position. There’s no mention I can find of BOM events being in Meso-America until 1842, the year Joseph Smith read John Llyod Stephen’s book Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatan. There were books written about the subject prior to this one but there’s no evidence that Smith ever read or was exposed to them.

Smith first spoke of it in the September and October 1842 editions of Times and Seasons. This is the earliest mention I can find of this, which was documented in Ancient America and the Book of Mormon by Thomas Stuart Ferguson and Milton R. Hunter. (Kolob Books, Oakland, CA, 1950)

The two Cumorahs theory is like everything else in Mormonism: an evolving concept.

 

[Returning_Home]

Mesoamerica isn’t South America.

You’re right; Mesoamerica or Meso-America (Spanish: Mesoamérica) is a region and culture area in the Americas, extending approximately from central Mexico to Honduras and Nicaragua, within which a number of pre-Columbian societies flourished before the Spanish colonization of the Americas in the 15th and 16th centuries. (stolen from Wikipedia, my dictionary echoes this definition almost exactly)

Now that we’ve defined it, we can start to zero in on it, can’t we? But, as Thomas Stuart Ferguson found out, the area in which it could’ve happened got smaller and smaller until it became clear that it didn’t happen at all.

 

[LongJourney]

the area in which it could’ve happened got smaller and smaller until it became clear that it didn’t happen at all.

Which is the conclusion that many have reached. The only tenable solution is Greenland. That solution is compatible with maybe 5% of the (fictional) text, and allies Mormonism with Nazism.

 

[Catholic20064]

Absolutely!

I have heard Mormons say that treasure hunters stole artifacts to sell to private parties in Europe. I have to wonder - who would want it? Wouldn’t they have sold to a museum by now?

The LDS here on CAF have claimed that if the Book of Mormon is false, then the whole religion falls like a house of cards.

And I’ve heard Mormons say the Catholic priests destroyed all of the evidence for Mormonism when they conquered the people in Mesoamerica because they thought the artifacts were demonic.

 

[RebeccaJ]

In order to understand Mormonism, you have to be a member of The Conspiracy Theories Club.