Cumorah

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A few hundred million years ago, the north eastern portion of the North American continent was covered by what was known as the Kansas Sea. All of New York state was under water. As the sea subsided and the land rose, many remnants ( fossils ) were left.
These remnants consisted of various plant and animal ( fish, shellfish, worms, etc. ) life forms that lived in this sea.

Now, I can assure you with certainty that if the LDS ever would dig around Cumorah, N.Y., all they would ever find would be the fossil remains of the plant and animal life that once lived in this ancient sea.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Mormons know that. Deep inside, they know their book is a fraud…that is why they do not excavate around Cumorah or Palmyra
 
Mormons know that. Deep inside, they know their book is a fraud…that is why they do not excavate around Cumorah or Palmyra
I don’t agree. I think many active Mormons really believe in the Book of Mormon. I don’t think most of them think that getting archaeological proof is important. I think most of them think the evidence for the Book of Mormon has been divinely hidden so that people will have to rely on faith to believe the Book of Mormon.
 
I don’t agree. I think many active Mormons really believe in the Book of Mormon. I don’t think most of them think that getting archaeological proof is important. I think most of them think the evidence for the Book of Mormon has been divinely hidden so that people will have to rely on faith to believe the Book of Mormon.
I have a Mormon friend who told me he is/was having a near breakdown because he found out he’s been lied to. Does he still belong? Yes.

Why? Scouts for his son, both he and his wife come from a long line of Mormons, tremendous family pressure, and …the clincher…“why not be Mormon,” he said, “because all leaders of religions lie to their people so why change to another one?”

I have read numerous accounts by people who had serious questions about the BoM for one reason or another and have been told not to let it ruin things for the wife/husband and kids. Just *ignore * the problem, we all know it is there, and enjoy Mormonism for the good parts - missions, scouts, family home evening, seminary, ward activities, and family harmony,

However, let’s be honest, many people are not interested in the meat and potatoes of their faith. Many Catholics fall into this category where they are not knowledgeable about the history of the CC or the catechism. However, when a person like this decides to learn more, such as myself, there is an endless amount of information available.

I have grown deeper in my faith as I have questioned it. I think that was God’s plan, knowing that people may falter in their faith, to provide reinforcements. Some people are inspired by archaeology, some by ancient writings such as the Didache, others by the writings of the Early Church Fathers, some by the many devotions available (rosary, Sacred Heart, Divine Mercy…), and, I believe, the Shroud of Turin and the Olviedo Cloth will bring many non-believers to the faith in the future.

Also, remember, many Mormons live among other Mormons and have no to very little outside influence and have had no reason to question the BoM. Once they go out into the world, if they do, it can be a different story.
 
I don’t agree. I think many active Mormons really believe in the Book of Mormon. I don’t think most of them think that getting archaeological proof is important. I think most of them think the evidence for the Book of Mormon has been divinely hidden so that people will have to rely on faith to believe the Book of Mormon.
I was referring to the leaders…they are the ones dodging around the fact that Cumorah is not excavated
 
Who owns the hill in NY?

If it is the lds church, then it would appear obvious that they are keeping any credible archological research away.

If it were public land, they would getting their own archeologists in there before any independents would have a chance to discredit them.
 
I don’t agree. I think many active Mormons really believe in the Book of Mormon. I don’t think most of them think that getting archaeological proof is important. I think most of them think the evidence for the Book of Mormon has been divinely hidden so that people will have to rely on faith to believe the Book of Mormon.
Most of the LDS I know are convinced that there is a wealth of archaeological evidence for the BoM. They have never seen any, but they have been told so by leaders or Mormon “experts” they trust, or some have just gleaned it from the persistent rumors that circulate thoughout Mormondom.

The others, more well-informed, simply don’t care whether it is true or not. Theirs is more a cultural- than a religious identity.
 
Who owns the hill in NY?
The LDS Church, which is why we are all amazed that they have done no archaeological work in the area. They have sent teams of archaeologists all over Meso-America and Central America, but have never done anything in the one area where they can place BoM events - The Hill Cumorah.

Doesn’t that tell you something?
 
The LDS Church.
Figures. As long as it is on their property, the can “claim” anything they want.

By the way, I have a diamond mine, AND a gold mine on mine, but I’m not mining anything right now…😛

If the lds thought there was any validity at all to the claims about that hill, they would be digging like crazy, just to prove to the world it is true.

Sometimes a person/groups lack of action speaks louder than their actions.
 
Figures. As long as it is on their property, the can “claim” anything they want.

By the way, I have a diamond mine, AND a gold mine on mine, but I’m not mining anything right now…😛

If the lds thought there was any validity at all to the claims about that hill, they would be digging like crazy, just to prove to the world it is true.

Sometimes a person/groups lack of action speaks louder than their actions.
Exactly.
 
I have not the slightest expectation that your already firmed up conclusions could be changed one iota by anyone writing on this forum.
What?? Holding “firmed up conclusions” held against all the evidence appears to be an LDS preserve. If it were true archaeology, anthropology, linguistics and DNA would have provided ample evidence by now. Science has provided not one iota of evidence for the BoM - only reasonable conclusion - it is untrue. A conclusion also reached by the many objective ex-Mormons.
 
What?? Holding “firmed up conclusions” held against all the evidence appears to be an LDS preserve. If it were true archaeology, anthropology, linguistics and DNA would have provided ample evidence by now. Science has provided not one iota of evidence for the BoM - only reasonable conclusion - it is untrue. A conclusion also reached by the many objective ex-Mormons.
StevieD,
When I read such comments, what it says to me is that the person doesn’t really believe God is omnipotent or omniscient or that His purposes of sending humankind to earth include helping them learn that their greatest source of truths from God will be from God, not from human methods of knowledge–however good those methods may be for scholastic pursuits or for people learning from each other and from experience how best to live their lives in harmony and happiness (which are good ends for scholastic research).

Archeology and anthropology questions of finding “conclusive evidence” for the Book of Mormon remind me of the following verses in the Book of Mormon:

Helaman 13:31 And behold, the time cometh that he curseth your riches, that they become slippery, that ye cannot hold them; and in the days of your poverty ye cannot retain them.
32 And in the days of your poverty ye shall cry unto the Lord; and in vain shall ye cry, for your desolation is already come upon you, and your destruction is made sure; and then shall ye weep and howl in that day, saith the Lord of Hosts. And then shall ye lament, and say:
33 O that I had repented, and had not killed the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out. Yea, in that day ye shall say: O that we had remembered the Lord our God in the day that he gave us our riches, and then they would not have become slippery that we should lose them; for behold, our riches are gone from us.
34 Behold, we lay a tool here and on the morrow it is gone; and behold, our swords are taken from us in the day we have sought them for battle.
35 Yea, we have hid up our treasures and they have slipped away from us, because of the curse of the land.
36 O that we had repented in the day that the word of the Lord came unto us; for behold the land is cursed, and all things are become slippery, and we cannot hold them.

Mormon 1:18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.

If God is omnipotent, and created the earth and is still involved with it, then He can be involved in “cursing the land” such that those looking to build their own faith using physical means of proof (archeology), simply will not be able to do so. They can try, and think perhaps that God has “inspired” them to look to prove to others or themselves, but it is leaning their ladder against the wrong wall, and even if they were to find an evidence, it is completely predictable that their faith would one day wane and they would fall away if that was the basis of their “faith”.

DNA and linguistics studies have not dealt with every single tribal group in the New World nor traced every origin of every tribal group in the New World, nor would there be any logical expectation that DNA matches–either through the maternal lines or the paternal lines of ancestry–would be similar to Middle Eastern DNA sources. There are too many variables, including that Joseph’s children would have mostly non-Israelite blood lines, particularly their maternal line.
 
Archeology and anthropology questions of finding “conclusive evidence” for the Book of Mormon remind me of the following verses in the Book of Mormon:
This is Mormonism being used as proof for Mormonism, a circular, self-confirming argument. In other words, nonsense.
 
StevieD,
When I read such comments, what it says to me is that the person doesn’t really believe God is omnipotent or omniscient or that His purposes of sending humankind to earth include helping them learn that their greatest source of truths from God will be from God, not from human methods of knowledge–however good those methods may be for scholastic pursuits or for people learning from each other and from experience how best to live their lives in harmony and happiness (which are good ends for scholastic research).
Of course, open with calling into question the faith of people who don’t see things your way. I’m sure I’ve heard a word for this type of response, what was that…
 
StevieD,
When I read such comments, what it says to me is that the person doesn’t really believe God is omnipotent or omniscient or that His purposes of sending humankind to earth include helping them learn that their greatest source of truths from God will be from God, not from human methods of knowledge–however good those methods may be for scholastic pursuits or for people learning from each other and from experience how best to live their lives in harmony and happiness (which are good ends for scholastic research).

**Parker - When I read this comment, it says to me that you *have ***to believe that people who enjoy or are enriched through biblical archaeology are somehow lacking in a true understanding of God and should somehow be looked down upon.
How about people who feel God when hiking in the mountains or bird watching? Are they lacking something too?
We have all heard of people who have had a conversion due to visiting the holy sites in Israel, reading the ECF, had a near-death experience…God knows we are all different in our learning styles and in what inspires us. Don’t you think God put those experiences into the lives of people so that they would grow closer to him?

Archeology and anthropology questions of finding “conclusive evidence” for the Book of Mormon remind me of the following verses in the Book of Mormon:

Helaman 13:31 And behold, the time cometh that he curseth your riches, that they become slippery, that ye cannot hold them; and in the days of your poverty ye cannot retain them.
32 And in the days of your poverty ye shall cry unto the Lord; and in vain shall ye cry, for your desolation is already come upon you, and your destruction is made sure; and then shall ye weep and howl in that day, saith the Lord of Hosts. And then shall ye lament, and say:
33 O that I had repented, and had not killed the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out. Yea, in that day ye shall say: O that we had remembered the Lord our God in the day that he gave us our riches, and then they would not have become slippery that we should lose them; for behold, our riches are gone from us.
34 Behold, we lay a tool here and on the morrow it is gone; and behold, our swords are taken from us in the day we have sought them for battle.
35 Yea, we have hid up our treasures and they have slipped away from us, because of the curse of the land.
36 O that we had repented in the day that the word of the Lord came unto us; for behold the land is cursed, and all things are become slippery, and we cannot hold them.

Mormon 1:18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again.

**But Parker, you are using the BoM to defend the BoM. Let’s face it, anyone can interpret scripture to defend their position! **

If God is omnipotent, and created the earth and is still involved with it, then He can be involved in “cursing the land” such that those looking to build their own faith using physical means of proof (archeology), simply will not be able to do so. They can try, and think perhaps that God has “inspired” them to look to prove to others or themselves, but it is leaning their ladder against the wrong wall, and even if they were to find an evidence, it is completely predictable that their faith would one day wane and they would fall away if that was the basis of their “faith”.

That is one way to look at it. But try looking at it from another angle. Don’t you think God is trying to bring His people to Him, not trying to figure out ways to trick them?

DNA and linguistics studies have not dealt with every single tribal group in the New World nor traced every origin of every tribal group in the New World, nor would there be any logical expectation that DNA matches–either through the maternal lines or the paternal lines of ancestry–would be similar to Middle Eastern DNA sources. There are too many variables, including that Joseph’s children would have mostly non-Israelite blood lines, particularly their maternal line.
**Is somebody currently conducting DNA and linguistics studies on every single tribal group in the New World? If so, please provide the information showing that the LDS church is actively pursuing this. **
 
StevieD,
When I read such comments, what it says to me is that the person doesn’t really believe God is omnipotent or omniscient
Well what ‘it’ says to you is untrue! It’s the LDS who believes that God was once a man and that you can become a god (you know - the ‘meat’ that the missionaries don’t mention). But I believe in the unchanging, all powerful Creator God who has no hierarchy of other ‘gods’ above Him.
 
StevieD,
When I read such comments, what it says to me is that the person doesn’t really believe God is omnipotent or omniscient or that His purposes of sending humankind to earth include helping them learn that their greatest source of truths from God will be from God, not from human methods of knowledge–however good those methods may be for scholastic pursuits or for people learning from each other and from experience how best to live their lives in harmony and happiness (which are good ends for scholastic research).
DNA is strong enough that if any of Joe’s story was true, DNA would support it
 
If God is omnipotent, and created the earth and is still involved with it, then He can be involved in “cursing the land” such that those looking to build their own faith using physical means of proof (archeology), simply will not be able to do so. They can try, and think perhaps that God has “inspired” them to look to prove to others or themselves, but it is leaning their ladder against the wrong wall, and even if they were to find an evidence, it is completely predictable that their faith would one day wane and they would fall away if that was the basis of their “faith”.
from allaboutmormons.com

“Although God is our Father, He differs from us in two very important ways. First, Mormons believe that God is perfect in all moral attributes. Unlike human beings with our many shortcomings, God is perfectly kind, perfectly patient, and perfectly loving; all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-powerful. God is perfectly merciful, and yet perfectly just. Like any good Father, He is an example—the perfect example—for His children. Mormons recognize that we constantly fall short of the divine ideal, but striving to follow our Father’s perfect example is a noble pursuit; indeed, it is central to the reason we’ve been placed on earth, central to the very purpose of life.”

The Mormon definition of God does not jive with a God who would curse the land or keep those who enjoy archaeology from getting to know Him.
 
If God is omnipotent, and created the earth and is still involved with it, then He can be involved in “cursing the land” such that those looking to build their own faith using physical means of proof (archeology), simply will not be able to do so. They can try, and think perhaps that God has “inspired” them to look to prove to others or themselves, but it is leaning their ladder against the wrong wall, and even if they were to find an evidence, it is completely predictable that their faith would one day wane and they would fall away if that was the basis of their “faith”.
So what you are saying here is that the LDS god is a deceiver. He tricks us and hides the truth from us so that we cannot discover what is true.

Hmmm…that sounds not so much like God as like another being. Let’s see now, who it be? Could it be…SATAN? :cool:
 
I cannot admit there is because I’m an honest student of history. As others point out, the “evidence” doesn’t have to be “overwhelming”, just convincing enough that it would be accepted in a non-LDS, peer-reviewed publication.
That might be true for the finding of the cities of Sodom and Gomorah, Mt. Arrarat or Mt.Sinai–or even incontrovertable proof that a certain Jesus of Nazareth, leader of a small religious group was crucified right here and buried right there.

Because of the nature of the Book of Mormon, nobody is going to be offering anything that MIGHT support it as proof of it in any peer reviewed jounal.

It would be very much like offering peer reviewed proof that Jesus the Christ actually was resurrected and ascended to Heaven.
A bit of a conditional “if”, wouldn’t you say? So far, the proof is to the contrary, and it IS overwhelming.
Sorry, but no, it’s not. there is no proof to the contrary. There simply is little proof positive FOR it. Certainly not to the extent of proving that the BoM is a validly true archeological guide book to the ancient Americas.

That those of us who believe in it find things that support our belief is understandable. However, we find things that support it because we already believe it to be true. We do not believe it to be true because we find things to support it.

…and that is the reason people believe that the Bible is religious truth, too.
IYou realize what this means, right?

It means…

…Joseph Smith WAS NOT a prophet, and the BoM is not the Word of God. That the LDS faith is not as it claims to be.

Because of this, I don’t expect any Mormon to ever admit that there is any evidence, no matter how strong…or how much that evidence would satisfy any scientist about any OTHER thing…that would prove the Book of Mormon to be factually, historically inaccurate.
Of course. It’s about faith. Besides which, there hasn’t been anything to come along that DOES that. I haven’t seen a single thing that PROVES the Book of Mormon wrong. Don’t kid yourself. neither one of us is going by fact here. Both of us are looking at the same scientific data and using it to support our already set opinions…and we are both discarding those things that mitigate against them.

I’m quite certain, for instance, that you dismiss without a fair reading any LDS/apologetics answer to any of the objections you raise.
 
Originally Posted by** ParkerD**
If God is omnipotent, and created the earth and is still involved with it, then He can be involved in “cursing the land” such that those looking to build their own faith using physical means of proof (archeology), simply will not be able to do so. They can try, and think perhaps that God has “inspired” them to look to prove to others or themselves, but it is leaning their ladder against the wrong wall, and even if they were to find an evidence, it is completely predictable that their faith would one day wane and they would fall away if that was the basis of their “faith”.
Sorry Parker, but “cursing the land” is a weak excuse and does not hold water. Our God “cursed the land” of Sodom and Gommorah ( Gen 19:24-29 ) by utterly destroying them, and yet archaeology has discovered that these were actual cities that were totally destroyed by some cataclysmic event.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
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