Cumorah

[twopekinguys]

From what I understand, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is not “the” Hill Cumorah as found in the Book of Mormon. Remember, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, and because of this, they believe that Moroni could have walked from Mesoamerica to New York and deposited the gold plates there. They also don’t believe that the geographical descriptions of the area surrounding Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon don’t match the upstate NY one, so it couldn’t be it (remembering that they subscribe to the Book of Mormon being actual history describing actual places and events).

So, LDS subscribing to this view wouldn’t think of excavating the New York Hill Cumorah because they don’t expect to find anything there, since the “real” one is in Mesoamerica.

As to the description of the Hill opening up and Smith and Cowdery being able to see various artifacts in the Hill, those that hold to this view would say that that was a visionary experience.

So, the next question would be, where is the real Hill Cumorah? Well…

It also seems that those that subscribe to this view would view the statements by church leaders pointing to NY Cumorah=BoM Cumorah as being their [uninspired] opinions…

For more info:

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=4&num=1&id=98
en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Archaeology/Hill_Cumorah
fairblog.org/2008/02/12/the-two-cumorah-theory%E2%80%9D/

but are you aware of this letter?

http://josephsmithacademy.org/files/user_uploads/inspiraimagesecc2/hill-cumorah-letter.png

 

[LivingWaters7]

Then they must believe that the following, already quoted by TK, is false:

“Further, the fact that all of his associates from the beginning down have spoken of it as the identical hill where Mormon and Moroni hid the records, must carry some weight. It is difficult for a reasonable person to believe that such men as Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others, could speak frequently of the Spot where the Prophet Joseph Smith obtained the plates as the Hill Cumorah, and not be corrected by the Prophet, if that were not the fact. That they did speak of this hill in the days of the Prophet in this definite manner is an established record of history…” (Joseph Fielding Smith - Mormon prophet, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.3, p.232-43.)

If what is said here is false, according to “Mormon scholars”, what does that say about the credibility of “Oliver Cowdery, Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt, Orson Pratt, David Whitmer, and many others…”?

So, we must conclude that Mormon scholars disagree with the statements of their so-called prophets.

As I’m sure you have noticed, many LDS tend to view certain things as “opinion”, which they are able to disagree with to maintain their own views on that issue. They probably wouldn’t say that the above mentioned individuals were not credible, but that they and others have given their opinions, which LDS that disagree are not bound by. LDS scholars many times explicitly state that they disagree with the common narrative of various events in LDS history, and place their view over that of LDS prophets, citing “prophet is a prophet only when he is speaking as such” as a way to show that it’s okay to disagree with them at times on certain things. The problem with that would then by how do you know when a prophet is speaking in his prophetic office, and when he is only giving his human opinion. In my view, words of latter day prophets are regarded as “opinion” when they do not agree with the conclusions given by LDS scholars to make certain problems"work", such as with BoM geography and Mesoamerica. It had to have occurred in Mesoamerica, because that’s the only place that seems to fit (I have a couple books on this topic, haven’t read them yet to give an analysis), so statements by prophets, apostles, and others contradicting that must have been their unenlightened opinion, and not God stating a fact. That’s how they would view this.

 

[LivingWaters7]

but are you aware of this letter?

Joseph Academy

Yes, I’ve seen it many times. I’m giving how many LDS view the matter.

 

[TexanKnight]

As I’m sure you have noticed, many LDS tend to view certain things as “opinion”, which they are able to disagree with to maintain their own views on that issue. They probably wouldn’t say that the above mentioned individuals were not credible, but that they and others have given their opinions, which LDS that disagree are not bound by. LDS scholars many times explicitly state that they disagree with the common narrative of various events in LDS history, and place their view over that of LDS prophets, citing “prophet is a prophet only when he is speaking as such” as a way to show that it’s okay to disagree with them at times on certain things. The problem with that would then by how do you know when a prophet is speaking in his prophetic office, and when he is only giving his human opinion. In my view, words of latter day prophets are regarded as “opinion” when they do not agree with the conclusions given by LDS scholars to make certain problems"work", such as with BoM geography and Mesoamerica. It had to have occurred in Mesoamerica, because that’s the only place that seems to fit (I have a couple books on this topic, haven’t read them yet to give an analysis), so statements by prophets, apostles, and others contradicting that must have been their unenlightened opinion, and not God stating a fact. That’s how they would view this.

again, the statements were not given as opinions. To accept them as opinions, in itself, is calling js a liar.

and I can live with that

 

[kimg901]

So who is right here? The lds prophets or scholars? Or is it okay to say “what the last prophet said has no bearing?” Because the current prophets voice in a new revelation or what? Im confused.

 

[TexanKnight]

So who is right here? The lds prophets or scholars? Or is it okay to say “what the last prophet said has no bearing?” Because the current prophets voice in a new revelation or what? Im confused.

for Mormons, they will accept whatever prophet says what they like.

 

[Porknpie]

From what I understand, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Hill Cumorah in New York is not “the” Hill Cumorah as found in the Book of Mormon. Remember, Mormon scholars tend to believe that the Book of Mormon events took place in Mesoamerica, and because of this, they believe that Moroni could have walked from Mesoamerica to New York and deposited the gold plates there.

Now that’s interesting.

Why would an angel have to walk from one continent to another?

They also don’t believe that the geographical descriptions of the area surrounding Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon don’t match the upstate NY one, so it couldn’t be it (remembering that they subscribe to the Book of Mormon being actual history describing actual places and events).

One reason why Mormon archeologists have let the LDS church. There is nothing on that hill despite what Joseph Smith and LDS prophets have claimed.

Simply a fable…a fictional novel by JS.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So who is right here? The lds prophets or scholars? Or is it okay to say “what the last prophet said has no bearing?” Because the current prophets voice in a new revelation or what? Im confused.

I also see the idea as Mormon “scholars” being more credible than “prophets”, to be more than a little problematic.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Now that’s interesting.

Why would an angel have to walk from one continent to another?

Well to be clear, Moroni was not deceased at the time he supposedly buried the plates. That happened before he died.

 

[Porknpie]

Well to be clear, Moroni was not deceased at the time he supposedly buried the plates. That happened before he died.

Ok…so he walked from South Or Central America…through jungle…through desert…up to New York State. Is that the belief?

 

[SteveVH]

Ok…so he walked from South Or Central America…through jungle…through desert…up to New York State. Is that the belief?

And the hits just keep on coming.

 

[gracepoole]

So we assume then that God somehow deliberately disappeared the archeology??? Didn’t do that in Palestine or any of the Bible regions.

Makes one wonder, if God made all the BoM places disappear with evidence, then why did God keep all the evidence of Biblical place intact?

What a confusing sort of God He would be if He really were like that. Like I said, head games. Leave all the Old World places and archeology, but make all the New World evidence dis-a-pee’a…

Abra-Cadab-Ra…Ala-Ka-Zaam!!

Is there archaeological evidence of the Exodus?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Ok…so he walked from South Or Central America…through jungle…through desert…up to New York State. Is that the belief?

Smith taught the Nephite army fought the Lamanites at hill Cumorah, and Moroni, being the last Nephite, buried his treasure where the last battle took place. His spirit then guarded the treasure, only allowing Smith to access it.

So this multiple Cumorah idea is outside of what Smith taught. What is happening is the same thing LDS do with the Bible. Wherever something in the text doesn’t align to LDS belief, just fill in between the lines, padding the text with what is imagined should or would be there.

The overriding initiative is it has to make sense, because a Mormon believes they have the truth. If it doesn’t make sense, it is because something was left out. Smith was opining. God just wants you to have faith.

 

[TexanKnight]

Smith taught the Nephite army fought the Lamanites at hill Cumorah, and Moroni, being the last Nephite, buried his treasure where the last battle took place. His spirit then guarded the treasure, only allowing Smith to access it.

So this multiple Cumorah idea is outside of what Smith taught. What is happening is the same thing LDS do with the Bible. Wherever something in the text doesn’t align to LDS belief, just fill in between the lines, padding the text with what is imagined should or would be there.

The overriding initiative is it has to make sense, because a Mormon believes they have the truth. If it doesn’t make sense, it is because something was left out. Smith was opining. God just wants you to have faith.

Mormon teaching adapts to reality. Mormon "prophesies adapt to reality. The Mormon god adapts to reality.

This should be proof the lds church is false

 

[LivingWaters7]

Ok…so he walked from South Or Central America…through jungle…through desert…up to New York State. Is that the belief?

Indeed.

---

When Mormon died he passed his record on to his son Moroni. For the next several decades Moroni kept adding to the plates until, before his own demise, he buried them as his father had done. Some Mesoamerican-proponents have suggested that Moroni may have taken the plates to the New York hill as a resurrected being. The angel Moroni took the plates away from Joseph once the translation was finished, so it certainly seems reasonable that he — as an angel — could have deposited them near Joseph’s home as well.

It’s also possible that during the decades in which Moroni was wandering and fleeing from the Lamanites (Moroni 1:1-3) that he simply carried the 50-pound plates until he made his final home in upstate New York. It’s interesting to speculate who and what Moroni might have encountered during such a trek.***
deseretnews.com/article/705367606/How-Moroni-and-the-plates-may-have-made-it-to-Hill-Cumorah.html?pg=all

 

[TexanKnight]

Indeed.

---

When Mormon died he passed his record on to his son Moroni. For the next several decades Moroni kept adding to the plates until, before his own demise, he buried them as his father had done. Some Mesoamerican-proponents have suggested that Moroni may have taken the plates to the New York hill as a resurrected being. The angel Moroni took the plates away from Joseph once the translation was finished, so it certainly seems reasonable that he — as an angel — could have deposited them near Joseph’s home as well.

It’s also possible that during the decades in which Moroni was wandering and fleeing from the Lamanites (Moroni 1:1-3) that he simply carried the 50-pound plates until he made his final home in upstate New York. It’s interesting to speculate who and what Moroni might have encountered during such a trek.***
deseretnews.com/article/705367606/How-Moroni-and-the-plates-may-have-made-it-to-Hill-Cumorah.html?pg=all

if only THE lds “prophet”…the one who allegedly spoke to moronic and to God, had taught this.

The fact he did NOT teach this is all we need to know. Mormon waffling does not make it true

 

[Bokonon9]

Indeed.

---

When Mormon died he passed his record on to his son Moroni. For the next several decades Moroni kept adding to the plates until, before his own demise, he buried them as his father had done. Some Mesoamerican-proponents have suggested that Moroni may have taken the plates to the New York hill as a resurrected being. The angel Moroni took the plates away from Joseph once the translation was finished, so it certainly seems reasonable that he — as an angel — could have deposited them near Joseph’s home as well.

It’s also possible that during the decades in which Moroni was wandering and fleeing from the Lamanites (Moroni 1:1-3) that he simply carried the 50-pound plates until he made his final home in upstate New York. It’s interesting to speculate who and what Moroni might have encountered during such a trek.***
deseretnews.com/article/705367606/How-Moroni-and-the-plates-may-have-made-it-to-Hill-Cumorah.html?pg=all

Except that, according to all those who acted as scribes for Joseph Smith while he dictated the Book of Mormon, Joseph never used the plates anyway. They were always said to be hidden in the woods or in a chest in the Smith home or somewhere else. So why bother with the whole nonsense about the gold plates when they were never used in the “translation”?

 

[SpeSalvi]

if only THE lds “prophet”…the one who allegedly spoke to moronic and to God, had taught this.

The fact he did NOT teach this is all we need to know. Mormon waffling does not make it true

Hey Tex, your Freudian slip is showing

I hope all our CAF members are having a wonderful Sunday! I found myself once again in tears at the wonder and beauty of the Eucharist during Mass today. As it was in the beginning…

 

[pablope]

Hey Tex, your Freudian slip is showing

I hope all our CAF members are having a wonderful Sunday! I found myself once again in tears at the wonder and beauty of the Eucharist during Mass today. As it was in the beginning…

And especially, as we line up for communion…the cantor starts to sing the song…“How Beautiful is the Body of Christ”…thinking of that greatest gift to us…the Eucharist…the Body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus…there it is for us…i get teary eyed just thinking of that…

youtube.com/watch?v=T281lL_6e44

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is there archaeological evidence of the Exodus?

There is for the civilizations that are in the narration.

None for the Book of Mormon. Zip. Zero.