Cumorah

[Marie5890]

I have been to Cumorah three times. Once to watch the pageant.

I was told by all the missionaries there that this Cumorah was the one from the Book of Mormon.

When I was a cast member, yes that is what we were told to tell the people in the audience.

I have no doubt that has been stricken from the talking points of when the cast greets the audience these days…

 

[Marie5890]

Shall I say it?

Opinion!

Not back in the 80’s

 

[lynnettejane]

I am going to take up the role of devil’s advocate.

Imagine that tomorrow there was a news story about an archaeological excavation that found millions of skeletons, steel weapons, chariots, horse bones, etc. all dating back to the 4th century in the Yucatan area of Mexico. Upon further investigation they found that the records of these people indicated that they believed in the god of Israel. This would likely send people flocking to the LDS faith. They wouldn’t be able to reasonably doubt that the Book of Mormon is true with such evidence. After such a finding the only question would be which Mormon denomination to join. Perhaps God, from a Mormon perspective of course, hides such evidence because he wants people to believe in him based upon faith, not upon empirical knowledge.

So we assume then that God somehow deliberately disappeared the archeology??? Didn’t do that in Palestine or any of the Bible regions. I live in England we have archeology everywhere and always finding new evidence of the various societies that have made their mark on our land. It just does not disappear, and archeological findings actually do not equal faith. Archeology does not prove Our Lord was who we believe him to be, that’s where faith comes in.

 

[TexanKnight]

Shall I say it?

Opinion!

Except I was told Joseph Said it.

When it was from the prophet, it was not opinion

especially when later prophets confirmed it

 

[pablope]

I have asked this question many times and never gotten an answer…

So why no excavation? They own the land…excavating it would be easy.

Could it be because they KNOW the Book of Mormon is fake and that they will find nothing there?

Why else would they refuse to excavate there?

TK…how can you have missed the answer…in this video…at about minute 36 to 40…the question is asked…and the caretaker or an usher at the site gives a reply…and it looks like there have been some diggings…maybe secretly…but have found nothing…that is why probably there have been no major announcements of any finding at the site…otherwise…there would have been a grand show of it.

youtube.com/watch?v=G1mFdO1wB08

 

[Marie5890]

So we assume then that God somehow deliberately disappeared the archeology??? Didn’t do that in Palestine or any of the Bible regions. I live in England we have archeology everywhere and always finding new evidence of the various societies that have made their mark on our land. It just does not disappear, and archeological findings actually do not equal faith. Archeology does not prove Our Lord was who we believe him to be, that’s where faith comes in.

Makes one wonder, if God made all the BoM places disappear with evidence, then why did God keep all the evidence of Biblical place intact?

What a confusing sort of God He would be if He really were like that. Like I said, head games. Leave all the Old World places and archeology, but make all the New World evidence dis-a-pee’a…

Abra-Cadab-Ra…Ala-Ka-Zaam!!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Except I was told Joseph Said it.

When it was from the prophet, it was not opinion

especially when later prophets confirmed it

The opinion bus driver is busily running over prophets.

 

[lynnettejane]

OK so if THE Cumorah isn’t the one everyone thought it was based on the teaching of the LDS, where the heck is it??
Do they have a clue, a revelation perhaps, if so then maybe they could have the new site excavated, then all would be proved.

 

[Marie5890]

The opinion bus driver is busily running over prophets.

There is a great deal of intellectual hoop jumping, gymnastics or compartamentalizing one has to do when one is LDS and uses reason.

 

[Marie5890]

OK so if THE Cumorah isn’t the one everyone thought it was based on the teaching of the LDS, where the heck is it??
Do they have a clue, a revelation perhaps, if so then maybe they could have the new site excavated, then all would be proved.

It’s my understanding that these days the answer is “we dont know” …

I dont think they claim anymore that they know where the so-called Hill Cumorah is…at least where the last so-called battle took place in the BoM.

Im not sure if they still claim that the gold plates found by Smith was found in the present day hill in Palmyra, NY where the annual pageant is held. Maybe they changed that, too, though.

 

[TexanKnight]

It’s my understanding that these days the answer is “we dont know” …

I dont think they claim anymore that they know where the so-called Hill Cumorah is…at least where the last so-called battle took place in the BoM.

Im not sure if they still claim that the gold plates found by Smith was found in the present day hill in Palmyra, NY where the annual pageant is held. Maybe they changed that, too, though.

To believe that means you must believe Joseph and the other prophets were not really prophets.

 

[lynnettejane]

Makes one wonder, if God made all the BoM places disappear with evidence, then why did God keep all the evidence of Biblical place intact?

What a confusing sort of God He would be if He really were like that. Like I said, head games. Leave all the Old World places and archeology, but make all the New World evidence dis-a-pee’a…

Abra-Cadab-Ra…Ala-Ka-Zaam!!

He didn’t have to keep it by effort, He knew it would just remain, something that cannot be said in the case of MoM archeology. Isn’t this all tremendously sad?

 

[JHow]

To believe that means you must believe Joseph and the other prophets were not really prophets.

Does every pronouncement if Smith have to be true? Was there anything that he did not know? When he identified Cumorah Hill in Ny was he saying it in his official capacity as a prophet or was it a more qualified statement, kind of like Einstein’s dislike of quantum mechanics? Maybe Smith wasn’t so certain, but his " gut" was telling him it should be this particular hill?

 

[truthseeker32]

We can certainly visit the places mentioned in the Bible. Why did they not disappear as well? The reason is because we are dealing with reality. If the stories in the Bible are true then they really happened somewhere at some time. We can walk the streets of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Galilee. We can go to the hill where Jesus was crucified. We can go to the tomb from which he rose. We can trace the route of the Jews fleeing from Egypt. Its all there. Its all there because it is true.

Not so for the stories in the Book of Mormon. There is not even scant evidence of any civilization described in the Book of Mormon. Absolutely zero. It is truly amazing to me that a person using reason as a part of his decision making process could ever conclude that this book is anything but fiction. The refusal to excavate Cumorah describes a people very doubtfull of success and absolutely frightened at the most probable outcome; that they find absolutely nothing.

There is a difference. Keep in mind that we have always had these Biblical accounts with us, and the stories can be dismissed by non-believers as exaggerations.

The Book of Mormon is different in that it was supposedly rediscovered and translated by Joseph Smith after an angel of God told him where it is. If archaeology validated the Book of Mormon it would give considerable credibility to Joseph Smith’s account of finding the Book of Mormon. We would say that it is likely that an angel actually did speak to JS, wouldn’t we? As yourself that: If tomorrow something was discovered that was significant and important evidence of the Book of Mormon, wouldn’t you be more inclined to believe that maybe Joseph Smith was a prophet?

I suppose even if the Book of Mormon was validated historically we could still doubt it. We could hold that Lehi and Nephi etc. were all guided by the devil so that in the future a man named Joseph Smith Jr. could restore the devil’s gospel and lead millions astray, but that seems pretty far fetched.

In conclusion, archaeological evidences validating the book of mormon would be more significant than evidences validating the bible because such evidence would give credibility to the miraculous claims Joseph Smith made.

I don’t know why God doesn’t reveal more to us. That is a big question a lot of people ask. Why doesnt God answer my prayers? Why doesn’t he give us signs that let us know truth from deception? etc.

 

[TexanKnight]

Does every pronouncement if Smith have to be true? Was there anything that he did not know? When he identified Cumorah Hill in Ny was he saying it in his official capacity as a prophet or was it a more qualified statement, kind of like Einstein’s dislike of quantum mechanics? Maybe Smith wasn’t so certain, but his " gut" was telling him it should be this particular hill?

Well…first, why would God allow him to mislead his people on something so important?

Second, if he was wrong, then did other “prophets” and “apostles” also claim it? Why did Apostle McKonkie claim it in the book Mormon Doctrine?

Sorry…you are picking the wrong tree to bark up

 

[SteveVH]

There is a difference. Keep in mind that we have always had these Biblical accounts with us, and the stories can be dismissed by non-believers as exaggerations.

You are mixing apples and oranges here. The historical person of Jesus can be shown by secular historians as well as Christian testimonies. We know where the events took place because they were real events taking place at real locations with real people that can be verified outside of the biblical text. Dont’ mix this up with a person rejecting the Christian faith and therefore dismissing its Sacred Scriptures. They cannot dismiss the historical reality of Christ and his Church.

The Book of Mormon is different in that it was supposedly rediscovered and translated by Joseph Smith after an angel of God told him where it is. If archaeology validated the Book of Mormon it would give considerable credibility to Joseph Smith’s account of finding the Book of Mormon.

Certainly, but I won’t be holding my breath nor would I recommend you doing so.

We would say that it is likely that an angel actually did speak to JS, wouldn’t we? As yourself that: If tomorrow something was discovered that was significant and important evidence of the Book of Mormon, wouldn’t you be more inclined to believe that maybe Joseph Smith was a prophet?

Sure. So where’s the evidence and why do you believe this in the face of no evidence at all. Do you pin your faith on “maybe they’ll find it someday”?

I suppose even if the Book of Mormon was validated historically we could still doubt it.

Do you realize what you have just said here? Really, take a look at it. You suppose that "even if the Book of Mormon was validated historically we could still doubt it." It doesn’t bother you at all that it cannot be validated historically. You know, all that means is that there is at least some evidence that something actually happened or a people actually lived. And you have nothing.

We could hold that Lehi and Nephi etc. were all guided by the devil so that in the future a man named Joseph Smith Jr. could restore the devil’s gospel and lead millions astray, but that seems pretty far fetched.

Or we could hold that Joseph Smith did this for his own glory and honor and that Lehi and Nephi are fictitious characters, but I can go with option A above pretty easily.

In conclusion, archaeological evidences validating the book of mormon would be more significant than evidences validating the bible because such evidence would give credibility to the miraculous claims Joseph Smith made.

Why would that be more significant than the revelation of Jesus Christ to the world?

And while you can sit and dream, the reality is that there is no such archaeological evidence and therefore no crediblity to the miraculous claims Joseph Smith made. Why do you base your faith upon something you hope will happen? The complete lack of evidence is evidence against, not for.

 

[Porknpie]

I am going to take up the role of devil’s advocate

Truth…

Your words are kind of ironic…

You are doing just that…playing to the hands of the Devil…by believing a myth…by believing in a man who was of poor reputation…claimed he could find buried treasure…sold snake oil…married 34 women…committed adultery multiple times…listened to a new Gospel from an Angel despite scripture telling us not to do so.

1 Galatians
8 But even if we or an angel[a] from heaven should proclaim to you a gospel contrary to what we proclaimed to you, let that one be accursed!

The LDS leadership does the same by misleading their flock. They know the Truth about Cumorah and refuse to evacuate this hill. None of them are prophets from God.

They remind me of the scripture below:

(Acts 13:10) "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?

I pray that you find the Truth on your journey.

No Apostasy. No Great Apostasy. It’s a lie starting from Joseph Smith.

Seek the Truth.

 

[Marie5890]

Does every pronouncement if Smith have to be true? Was there anything that he did not know? When he identified Cumorah Hill in Ny was he saying it in his official capacity as a prophet or was it a more qualified statement, kind of like Einstein’s dislike of quantum mechanics? Maybe Smith wasn’t so certain, but his " gut" was telling him it should be this particular hill?

Credibility matters, esp if one is claiming to be a true prophet of God, sent to restore the Gospel, etc. And that one is literally the mouthpiece of the Lord in the latter days.

At least I think credibility matters, esp since the Bible does warn us against false prophets.

utlm.org/onlineresources/cumorah.htm

 

[Marie5890]

Note the date is 1990

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[truthseeker32]

Truth…

Your words are kind of ironic…

You are doing just that…playing to the hands of the Devil…by believing a myth…by believing in a man who was of poor reputation…claimed he could find buried treasure…sold snake oil…married 34 women…committed adultery multiple times…listened to a new Gospel from an Angel despite scripture telling us not to do so.

And while you can sit and dream, the reality is that there is no such archaeological evidence and therefore no crediblity to the miraculous claims Joseph Smith made. Why do you base your faith upon something you hope will happen? The complete lack of evidence is evidence against, not for.

You two are aware that I stated I was playing the DEVIL’S ADVOCATE right? As in I don’t believe the argument I am making but am making it for kicks? Haven’t my other posts clued you into the fact that I no longer believe in Mormonism and am in the process of converting to Catholicism?