Curious about contemplative prayer

  • Thread starter Thread starter dje101
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Such was my contribution to the thread so far are recommending sources:

Spiritual Theology has a very long section in the card catalog.

(that is that strange box in libraries where books where listed Prior to the the Computer and internet…).

A will note a few rather extensive works.

But again one MUST remember that there are varied schools of thought and of spirituality and writers (complete with different uses of the same words over the centuries 🙂 (in particular that word Contemplation)). And at times various disagreements between them! (there was in fact such a debate during the first part of the 20th Century regarding acquired and infused contemplation).

One could mention for example-- The Ways Of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey OCR or the works of Garrigou-Langrange (Three Ages of the Interior Life and also Christian Perfection and Contemplation). Or that of Fr. Jordan Aumann (Spiritual Theology).

Here is one approach (drawing largely here from St. Theresa and the Carmelites): domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/st12.htm (note he discusses acquired contemplation in the section before that marked “Contemplation” for St. Theresa used the term contemplation for infused contemplation). And : domcentral.org/study/aumann/teresasgr.htm

(here is his whole work there online domcentral.org/study/aumann/st/default.htm#contents)

Another work online: ewtn.com/library/THEOLOGY/LITCOM.htm#3 (from two who are very important to my wife and I --Jacques and Raissa Maritain. By the way in a later work he changes a few things they mentions there about masked contemplation).

Important to read too for this topic: ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFMED.HTM

And as I noted a short but very practical good work: scepterpublishers.org/product/index.php?FULL=557
 
Bookcat said:
Yes one cannot generate infused contemplation.

.
Click to expand...
Well, in this thread on this forum when we say “comtemplation” we aren’t speaking of any other definition of the word. There is no other definition in the Christian sense. No one can “acquire” true contemplation.
 
Julia_Mae said:
Well, in this thread on this forum when we say “comtemplation” we aren’t speaking of any other definition of the word. There is no other definition in the Christian sense. No one can “acquire” true contemplation.
Click to expand...
Such is not the case see my posts above…I have been discussing both (i e post 11).

And most certainly there is other definitions and uses of the term contemplation in the Christian sense (your referring to infused contemplation which is of course a very high form of Christian contemplation–infused directly by God. And granted such is often the sense intended by writers or Saints etc and some will only use the term in that sense).
 
As to Contemplation it is to be noted that there is acquired contemplation…and infused contemplation.

I should note that various authors and various schools use terms differently.…such needs to be kept in mind when one goes back and forth between them.

Basically acquired contemplation can be on the philosophical level (read Josef Pieper on “natural contempation”) or theological …or in the sense of a kind of contemplation in prayer where things become more of an intuitive gaze etc (such as prayer of simplicity).

The other is that which is given directly by God (infused contemplation such as prayer of quiet). Such is what is meant in say --St. Theresa of Jesus etc
 
Bookcat said:
Very important document from the Holy See: vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html

Very short but very rich --be sure to read it slowly.

Quote:

“The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be “mastered” by any method or technique. On the contrary, we must always have our sights fixed on Jesus Christ…”
Click to expand...
This was written as Catholics were being drawn into the New Age movement and attempting to bring various things like the use of crystals, astrology etc into the Church.
I remember when this was happening as I saw various Catholics involved with such things, attempting to create prayer groups based around them. I had been doing CP longe before and saw nothing similar in what they were involved with.

Also and important statement that often gets ignored by many who bring up this document; Bold is my emphasis.
The majority of the great religions which have sought union with God in prayer have also pointed out ways to achieve it. Just as "the Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these religions,"18 neither should these ways be rejected out of hand simply because they are not Christian. On the contrary, one can take from them what is useful so long as the Christian conception of prayer, its logic and requirements are never obscured. It is within the context of all of this that these bits and pieces should be taken up and expressed anew.
Click to expand...
The state above is essentially saying that any prayer method which is not Christ centered, although good, should not be used by Catholics.

Centered In Christ Jesus
Jim
 
Julia_Mae said:
Actually, that’s not true. To your knowledge at least one person thinks a woman wrote it. I’ve talked to other women contemplatives who agree. So, you think 14th century milkmaids were commonly literate? I wonder why you would characterize the author in this way?

There’s a reason it’s anonymous, and, obviously, no one will ever know who wrote it. Or what gender they were.
Click to expand...
I believe they are quiet certain that it was an English Monk who wrote the Cloud.

Doesn’t matter who wrote it. It’s either true or it’s not. I happen to see the truth in it and so does the Church.

Jim
 
TheRealJuliane said:
Grow from better knowledge? OF COURSE this is Eastern meditation!!!

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
If you mean Eastern Orthodox, yes they held on to contemplative prayer better that we in the Roman Catholic Church have.

If you mean eastern as in Buddhism and Hinduism, no it’s not. They are not Christ centered forms of Meditation.

Here’s the origins, by the first teachers in our time, RIP.

kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm

If you want to avoid arguing about it, read the article, then of course obey the rules of the forum and stop with the misinformation.

Jim
 
TheRealJuliane said:
I used to do yoga, and Zen Buddhism. Believe me, I know Eastern thought when I see it.
Click to expand...
The mechanics are similar, just as Buddhist praying on a rosary bead are similar to our use of rosary beads.

However, we know they are different.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
If you mean Eastern Orthodox, yes they held on to contemplative prayer better that we in the Roman Catholic Church have.

If you mean eastern as in Buddhism and Hinduism, no it’s not. They are not Christ centered forms of Meditation.

Here’s the origins, by the first teachers in our time, RIP.

kyrie.com/cp/a_gift_from_the_desert.htm

If you want to avoid arguing about it, read the article, then of course obey the rules of the forum and stop with the misinformation.

Jim
Click to expand...
I didn’t bring the topic up. Talk to the ones who are going in that direction.

🤷
 
Bookcat said:
The document was written in regards to Christian Prayer - the entire document needs to be read as the full document.
Click to expand...
It was written on aspects of Christian Meditation, where Catholics in the New Age movement were bringing some of their practices into Christian mediation.

You’re also ignoring the part I posted from it.

CP had nothing to do with this can came out some 20 years before this document was written, and was based on the teachings of Abba Issac and other Catholic mystics.

Jim
 
TheRealJuliane said:
I didn’t bring the topic up. Talk to the ones who are going in that direction.

🤷
Click to expand...
You’re the one who stated that it came out of Eastern religion.

I’m showing you where it didn’t, but it’s all I’m allowed to say about in here.

Jim
 
Anyway, to respect the rules of the forum, I’m done with this subject.

If you want more information, PM me.

God Bless You All
Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It was written on aspects of Christian Meditation, where Catholics in the New Age movement were bringing some of their practices into Christian mediation.

You’re also ignoring the part I posted from it.

CP had nothing to do with this can came out some 20 years before this document was written, and was based on the teachings of Abba Issac and other Catholic mystics.

Jim
Click to expand...
Actually no it was not just directed to those who have erroneously looked to the New Age --in fact the term does not appear even once in the document.

It was a document on Certain Aspects of Christian Meditation (the term being used in a broad sense including too which is described as contemplative). It is an important document that touches on important questions concerning Christian prayer. It needs to be read as a whole.

The New Age has been addressed more so --for those so interested in reading why such is dangerous etc – in various places.

(as to CP -such is a banned topic so we cannot discuss such questions --which in I will note one will find disagreements regarding origins etc)
 
"Julia Mae:
Well, in this thread on this forum when we say “comtemplation” we aren’t speaking of any other definition of the word. There is no other definition in the Christian sense. No one can “acquire” true contemplation.
Click to expand...
Bookcat said:
As to Contemplation it is to be noted that there is acquired contemplation…and infused contemplation.
Click to expand...
Bookcat is right on this, imo. And, with all the discussion about The Cloud, it should be noted that the type of contemplation this author talks about is actually of the acquired variety (aka recollection). It certainly isn’t infused in the sense of what St. Teresa teaches as the prayer of quiet, union and so on.

And the purpose of acquired contemplation is simply to place one’s mind and heart in the continual presence of Christ … not to be some sort of faux bridge to the infused. Because this, of course, can’t happen.

Sometimes terminology muddles the situation rather than clarifies … as perhaps is the case here.

Dave 🙂
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I believe they are quiet certain that it was an English Monk who wrote the Cloud.
Click to expand...
They so presume. Yet, so unlikely for a monk to have been exposed to some of the things the writer speaks of. The language strikes me, and others, as distinctly feminine. I nominate an Anchoress of the period.
 
Bookcat said:
Basically acquired contemplation can be on the philosophical level (read Josef Pieper on “natural contempation”) or theological …or in the sense of a kind of contemplation in prayer where things become more of an intuitive gaze etc (such as prayer of simplicity).

The other is that which is given directly by God (infused contemplation such as prayer of quiet). Such is what is meant in say --St. Theresa of Jesus etc
Click to expand...
Oh, I see what you are doing. Well, the topic of this thread, contemplative prayer leads to a state of Grace known as contemplation. It’s very specific.

You can use the word as a verb, “to contemplate” in terms of Lectio Divina or lotus blossoms, I suppose, or the Divine Mercy image. People call this “contemplation of…” but introducing it ITT, I think, just muddies the water for anyone wanting to understand contemplative prayer, during which, ironically, we do not contemplate at all.
 
Julia_Mae said:
The language strikes me, and others, as distinctly feminine.
Click to expand...
That’s what I was wondering … you’re basing it on the style of writing. 🙂

You know where I thought was kind of feminine writing? The Stanzas of the Soul, by St. John of the Cross. At least it’s from a feminine POV. I figure I can post it on this thread, because through contemplation one’s soul can make a similar journey:
Code: 
STANZAS OF THE SOUL

	1. One dark night,
	fired with love's urgent longings
	  -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	I went out unseen,
	my house being now all stilled.
	
	2. In darkness, and secure,
  	by the secret ladder, disguised,
	 -- ah, the sheer grace! -- 
	in darkness and concealment,
	my house being now all stilled.

	3. On that glad night,
  	in secret, for no one saw me,
	nor did I look at anything,
	with no other light or guide
	than the one that burned in my heart.

	4. This guided me
     	more surely than the light of noon
	to where he was awaiting me
	 -- him I knew so well -- 
	there in a place where no one appeared.

	5. O guiding night!
  	O night more lovely than the dawn!
	O night that has united
	the Lover with his beloved,
	transforming the beloved in her Lover.

	6. Upon my flowering breast
  	which I kept wholly for him alone,
	there he lay sleeping,
	and I caressing him
	there in a breeze from the fanning cedars.

	7. When the breeze blew from the turret,
  	as I parted his hair,
  	it wounded my neck
	with its gentle hand,
	suspending all my senses.

	8. I abandoned and forgot myself,
  	laying my face on my Beloved;
	all things ceased; I went out from myself,
	leaving my cares
	forgotten among the lilies.
Alan
 
DBT said:
Bookcat is right on this, imo. And, with all the discussion about The Cloud, it should be noted that the type of contemplation this author talks about is actually of the acquired variety (aka recollection). It certainly isn’t infused in the sense of what St. Teresa teaches as the prayer of quiet, union and so on.
Click to expand...
Cloud teaches and describes precisely the infused state of being oned with God. Exactly what Teresa and John of the Cross speak of. If you dispute that, please follow with quotes. Please use an edition online for all here to access.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top