Cursillo

[Jeremiah1278]

No, no. You didn’t read what I wrote. The difference between ordinary discourse and these sorts of techniques is precisely the list of things I gave, including privation and intensity.

Do you actually know anything at all about Carl Rogers or Abraham Maslow? ? Anything??

Now wait a minute. You can’t possibly expect people to know much about these folks. I don’t work in their field. Moreover, you have a habit of going back to edit your posts to add qualifying information after I’ve already read and began to respond. I have done the same in the past. So In fact, I may not have read what you wrote, but it may not have been my fault.

I’ll do my best to digest the links you provided. Skimming, I couldn’t make heads or tails of the first link as I don’t know the professional vocabulary of this 1940s fast food purveyor .

Before I dive into all that research, what’s “hardcore use” of these techniques? I see they sent 60 professionals to a convent for a year and altered a lot of thinking over there. That sounds like hardcore use. Is an AA meeting hardcore use of these techniques?

 

[gh4]

The first thing I would like everyone to understand, those who have been to cursillo, those who failed cursillo (like me), and those who are contemplating going to cursillo.

You DO NOT have to be mentally ill to have it affect you in a adverse or negative way. Bottom line. Some very sane and very mentally healthy people may not like what is done in cursillo. So please, let’s not give anyone the idea that only mentally unhealthy people won’t like cursillo.

But you should have the RIGHT to know what is going to happen so you can make an informed decision whether to attend cursillo or not.

I won’t argue whether or not cursillo should happen. That’s not my issue. My issue is that the SECRECY is not a good thing in any way shape or form.

 

[tafan]

Ah. I see what you’re saying. I would only submit that the intense learning in the context of Cursillo is less an academic study of doctrine (which I would agree with you), as it is learning about your role in the lives of others and how to create a Christian environment. Those things can have an emotional element to the extent that empathy is big party of identifying places that could use your help and humility is sometimes learned best through our emotional faculties.

I see little reason that learning about my role in the lives of others or how to create a Christian environment requires any emotional element. Empathy and humility are virtues NOT emotions. As a matter of fact, emotions seem to be detrimental in learning how to live a virtuous life(at least for me).
On another note: you seem to stress the need for sharing. Why? Comparing it to AA is wrong, as AA is for people who have problems, and the “ideal candidate” for curscillo has already been described, and it’s certaiy not one with those types of problems.

 

[DebChris]

So I take it that many on this thread would be upset if their friends decided to throw a surprise party for them.

 

[iloveangels]

The first thing I would like everyone to understand, those who have been to cursillo, those who failed cursillo (like me), and those who are contemplating going to cursillo.

You DO NOT have to be mentally ill to have it affect you in a adverse or negative way. Bottom line. Some very sane and very mentally healthy people may not like what is done in cursillo. So please, let’s not give anyone the idea that only mentally unhealthy people won’t like cursillo.

But you should have the RIGHT to know what is going to happen so you can make an informed decision whether to attend cursillo or not.

I won’t argue whether or not cursillo should happen. That’s not my issue. My issue is that the SECRECY is not a good thing in any way shape or form.

Oh, you are right. It can affect you negatively if you are completely normal. That’s exactly my point.

You have a right to know what’s going to happen when you sign up. You have a right to know what’s going to be expected of you. You have a right to leave anytime you want to. And you have the right to talk to your family anytime you want to. That’s exactly my point.

 

[iloveangels]

So I take it that many on this thread would be upset if their friends decided to throw a surprise party for them.

If it were a three day surprise party, where they took my cell phone and keys away, told my family not to contact me, took away my privacy, and then used social pressure techniques to try to make me listen to a lot of propaganda and interact 24/7, you’re completely correct. I’d be very upset about that.

 

[BlueRoses12]

So I take it that many on this thread would be upset if their friends decided to throw a surprise party for them.

They’re. Not. Your. Friends.

They’re a group of strangers. On the same familiarity level as robed, shaved-headed people who used to hand out flowers in airports.

 

[DebChris]

I see little reason that learning about my role in the lives of others or how to create a Christian environment requires any emotional element. Empathy and humility are virtues NOT emotions. As a matter of fact, emotions seem to be detrimental in learning how to live a virtuous life(at least for me).
On another note: you seem to stress the need for sharing. Why? Comparing it to AA is wrong, as AA is for people who have problems, and the “ideal candidate” for curscillo has already been described, and it’s certaiy not one with those types of problems.

It is true that empathy and humility are virtues. These virtues are not acted upon in a vacuum. We are emotional beings who feel empathy for another person.
There is a difference between emotions that are naturally elicited and emotions that are manipulated. In the second case they are forced. Let’s take this back to the idea of learning. I can definitely learn about empathy and humility in a purely intellectual manner. It is only when I put these virtues into practice (action) that I experience the emotions associated with these virtues.
Emotions, in and of themselves, are neither good nor bad. We can use our emotions to respond to a situation in our lives; or we can allow the emotions to control us so that we react to a situation and give that situation power over us.
The Church teaches that we are to attend Mass every week. My overseas parish even uses the term Obligation Masses. We go because we must go. Ideally, we do not attend Mass simply because of obligation. Ideally we attend Mass by choice, in response to the Love that God has already showed us through His Son. Love is emotional, not merely intellectual. We can attend Mass, or we can fully enter the mystery that is the Mass.

Note: When my daughter was young, she shared how she felt a “shiver” after receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation. As I explained to her, the “shiver” she felt was the Holy Spirit. Even if we do not feel anything during confession, the efficacy of the Sacrament remains. It sure is nice when we do feel the guilt lifted from our shoulders, a natural emotional response.

 

[Jeremiah1278]

I see little reason that learning about my role in the lives of others or how to create a Christian environment requires any emotional element. Empathy and humility are virtues NOT emotions. As a matter of fact, emotions seem to be detrimental in learning how to live a virtuous life(at least for me).

Fair enough. I’m not quite eloquent or learned enough to articulate what I mean by emotions as we’ve been discussing them. But I don’t understand empathy without “feelings” and I don’t understand “feelings” without “emotions.” Perhaps that’s my own failing. Humility is a virtue for which I don’t need an emotional component, but I do think “feelings” like the state of being embarrassed by my pride or lack of humility helps teach me about humility. But I don’t doubt you are living a virtuous life without reference to feelings or emotions. I’m sure it’s done just fine.

On another note: you seem to stress the need for sharing. Why? Comparing it to AA is wrong, as AA is for people who have problems, and the “ideal candidate” for curscillo has already been described, and it’s certaiy not one with those types of problems.

Why did I talk about sharing? Folks started comparing Cursillo to encounter groups. I’ve never heard the term. So I think I just looked up the definition of Encounter Group and learned that it’s a group of people who meet in group format for the purpose of being better able to open up and express themselves. I’m talking about the act of sharing and over-sharing because that seems to be the purpose of encounter groups. I had to look it up.

Another board member seemed to be arguing that all encounter groups are bad. Alcoholics Anonymous is an encounter group. A group of people getting together to solve a problem in their lives by sharing with each other. The act of seeing others share, I assume, makes it easier for you to share what happened in your week. In fact, like the portions of Cursillo that are encounter group - like, it’s an encounter group that is ran by a non-professional. It seems to be ran by a fellow alcoholic trained in the AA method, not a psychiatrist. If all encounter groups are bad, then AA is bad.

I’m trying to figure out if all encounter groups are bad, or just some. My gut tells me that not all encounter groups are bad. If just some encounter groups are bad, then why? iloveangels is helping me out quite a bit. It seems some encounter groups can be bad when the technique is used “hardcore” but I don’t know what all that means yet, because I evidently need to first become expert in those Rogers and Maslow characters.

For now, it seems to me, that only some encounter groups are bad. My gut tells me AA is not bad. My gut (and the Church and the Christian lives of the numerous people I know who’ve been through Cursillo) tells me Cursillo is not bad. (Now Blue Roses is going to nail me for appealing to authority! j/k). But I’m open to being convinced otherwise. I think iloveangels may be saying that encounter groups are bad when they are coupled with some other things that are not part of all encounter groups, but it’s late, and I’ll have to read through those posts more attentively.

 

[iloveangels]

It is true that empathy and humility are virtues. These virtues are not acted upon in a vacuum. We are emotional beings who feel empathy for another person.
There is a difference between emotions that are naturally elicited and emotions that are manipulated. In the second case they are forced. Let’s take this back to the idea of learning. I can definitely learn about empathy and humility in a purely intellectual manner. It is only when I put these virtues into practice (action) that I experience the emotions associated with these virtues.
Emotions, in and of themselves, are neither good nor bad. We can use our emotions to respond to a situation in our lives; or we can allow the emotions to control us so that we react to a situation and give that situation power over us.
The Church teaches that we are to attend Mass every week. My overseas parish even uses the term Obligation Masses. We go because we must go. Ideally, we do not attend Mass simply because of obligation. Ideally we attend Mass by choice, in response to the Love that God has already showed us through His Son. Love is emotional, not merely intellectual. We can attend Mass, or we can fully enter the mystery that is the Mass.

Note: When my daughter was young, she shared how she felt a “shiver” after receiving the Sacrament of Reconciliation. As I explained to her, the “shiver” she felt was the Holy Spirit. Even if we do not feel anything during confession, the efficacy of the Sacrament remains. It sure is nice when we do feel the guilt lifted from our shoulders, a natural emotional response.

The “shiver” as you call it, is properly called a consolation, which may or may not be present. It’s not necessary for any consolations to be present for a Sacrament to be completely efficacious. Sacraments are valid because of what they are, not because of how you react to them or what you believe about them. [In other words, the “shiver” itself is not the Holy Spirit.]

For somewhat emotional individuals, consolations can become rather important. In fact, they can come to be more important to some individuals than the graces of the sacraments themselves, and ultimately get in the way of God’s work.

It’s necessary to remember that the point of a sacrament isn’t the emotion you experience, but rather the fact that it is what it is, a sacrament of the Church which imparts Divine grace, which you can neither see nor feel.

 

[iloveangels]

BTW, here are the virtues, since the subject has come up:

The Human Virtues: prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance

The Theological Virtues: faith, hope, and charity

The Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit are: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety, and fear of the Lord.

---

Simply empathy, as in unqualified general empathy??? Maybe that’s a secular “virtue” in the common contemporary way of thinking and not much more.

 

[DebChris]

They’re. Not. Your. Friends.

They’re a group of strangers. On the same familiarity level as robed, shaved-headed people who used to hand out flowers in airports.

As stated before, it was my friend of many years who invited me to make Cursillo. She was also my sponsor and somebody I trusted.
What did I know about the others who made Cursillo with me? I knew that they shared the same Catholic Faith that I share. This in and of itself gave them more familiarity than the “robed, shaved-headed people who used to hand out flowers in airports.” I knew them at least as well as any of the people who attended guided retreats with me. Because of our shared faith, I already knew them better than any of the people I went canoe camping or mountain hiking with.
The spiritual director was a diocesan priest. His assistant was a nun who had been profiled in the diocesan paper because of her late vocation. I had a shared friend, other than the friend who invited me, with one of the leaders.
Moreover I trust the heirachary of the Catholic Church that has given its blessing to the Cursillo movement and encouragement to Curstillistas who continue to grow in faith. I trusted my parish priest who signed my application.

Coming back to a point repeatedly made on this thread. Nobody is forced to make Cursillo. We can open ourselves to the experience, or we can close ourselves off through skepticism. If I accept the invitation, I also accept that some things may also be asked of me. I may be asked to leave behind my watch, to allow myself to be unencumbered by a need to know the schedule. I might actually even allow somebody else to take care of me for a change.
No, the brownies were not “laced.” Nobody forced me to express emotions that I did not naturally feel or to share parts of my life that I consider confidential. I was never asked to relinquish reason. I was definitely not sleep deprived, nor forced to change clothes in front of anybody else.

I do tend to be an analytical person. It was during the most difficult point in my life that I did attend an intensive journal retreat. During that retreat, participants were asked to set aside the intellect in order to express our emotions through writing. It was a challenge for all the participants, each of whom was at least as smart and analytical as I. It is not a requirement for Cursillo. As the Church teaches, reason informs faith.

@Iloveangels–Read my post again, and you will see that I stated that a lack of feelings does not invalidate the Sacraments. If I do receive consolation, that consolation is a gift from God.

 

[iloveangels]

BTW, love is not only emotional. It’s not primarily a feeling. It’s a set of choices, a commitment. It may be accompanied by emotion but it can exist without emotion. Ask any old couple who’ve been married for 50 or 60 years if they love each other and they’ll tell you all about this.

The word “love” is very sloppy in the English language.
I love ice cream.
I love to go to the store.
I love my husband.
I love God.

They’re not all the same thing but the same word is used. It’s a terrible linguistic poverty we have in the English language. Hebrew has many words that mean different kinds of love. Did you know that?

Not only that, but in the USA, we have sex on the brain. Everything is likened to the sappy stuff in the movies. But not all of that is love, by far. And all real love doesn’t look any thing like that. Some real love is self-less, doesn’t have anything at all to do with pelvises and is long-suffering.

 

[iloveangels]

As stated before, it was my friend of many years who invited me to make Cursillo. She was also my sponsor and somebody I trusted.
What did I know about the others who made Cursillo with me? I knew that they shared the same Catholic Faith that I share. This in and of itself gave them more familiarity than the “robed, shaved-headed people who used to hand out flowers in airports.” I knew them at least as well as any of the people who attended guided retreats with me. Because of our shared faith, I already knew them better than any of the people I went canoe camping or mountain hiking with.
The spiritual director was a diocesan priest. His assistant was a nun who had been profiled in the diocesan paper because of her late vocation. I had a shared friend, other than the friend who invited me, with one of the leaders.
Moreover I trust the heirachary of the Catholic Church that has given its blessing to the Cursillo movement and encouragement to Curstillistas who continue to grow in faith. I trusted my parish priest who signed my application.

Coming back to a point repeatedly made on this thread. Nobody is forced to make Cursillo. We can open ourselves to the experience, or we can close ourselves off through skepticism. If I accept the invitation, I also accept that some things may also be asked of me. I may be asked to leave behind my watch, to allow myself to be unencumbered by a need to know the schedule. I might actually even allow somebody else to take care of me for a change.
No, the brownies were not “laced.” Nobody forced me to express emotions that I did not naturally feel or to share parts of my life that I consider confidential. I was never asked to relinquish reason. I was definitely not sleep deprived, nor forced to change clothes in front of anybody else.

I do tend to be an analytical person. It was during the most difficult point in my life that I did attend an intensive journal retreat. During that retreat, participants were asked to set aside the intellect in order to express our emotions through writing. It was a challenge for all the participants, each of whom was at least as smart and analytical as I. It is not a requirement for Cursillo. As the Church teaches, reason informs faith.

@Iloveangels–Read my post again, and you will see that I stated that a lack of feelings does not invalidate the Sacraments. If I do receive consolation, that consolation is a gift from God.

You were willing to suspend your own psychological freedom for reasons of your own. I understand this. It doesn’t make it right, and it doesn’t make it advisable for many people.

As the Church teaches, yes, reason informs faith and vice versa. Settling for half is settling for half. Fides et Ratio.

 

[DebChris]

BTW, love is not only emotional. It’s not primarily a feeling. It’s a set of choices, a commitment. It may be accompanied by emotion but it can exist without emotion. Ask any old couple who’ve been married for 50 or 60 years if they love each other and they’ll tell you all about this.

The word “love” is very sloppy in the English language.
I love ice cream.
I love to go to the store.
I love my husband.
I love God.

They’re not all the same thing but the same word is used. It’s a terrible linguistic poverty we have in the English language. Hebrew has many words that mean different kinds of love. Did you know that?

Not only that, but in the USA, we have sex on the brain. Everything is likened to the sappy stuff in the movies. But not all of that is love, by far. And all real love doesn’t look any thing like that. Some real love is self-less, doesn’t have anything at all to do with pelvises and is long-suffering.

Now we are getting to a point in which you and I agree. There is definitely more to love than its emotional component.

“God loves us just as we are, but too much to let us stay that way.”–from a poster I saw many years ago at the retreat center where I used to go.

 

[DebChris]

You were willing to suspend your own psychological freedom for reasons of your own. I understand this. It doesn’t make it right, and it doesn’t make it advisable for many people.

As the Church teaches, yes, reason informs faith and vice versa. Settling for half is settling for half. Fides et Ratio.

Again, I never suspended my psychological freedom.

 

[maryjk]

So I take it that many on this thread would be upset if their friends decided to throw a surprise party for them.

**They’re. Not. Your. Friends.
**
They’re a group of strangers. On the same familiarity level as robed, shaved-headed people who used to hand out flowers in airports.

Although you do know your sponsor, your sponsor doesn’t attend with you. Generally, you are thrust into a group of people that you don’t know.

They even seat you at a table full of people you don’t know. I was warned that even if I knew people on the weekend, The organizers would be sure to seat me with people I didn’t know.

So, no, these are not your friends. My friends, I know and trust. My friends would encourage friendships with people I might actually see again. My friends would understand that my family is important to me and wouldn’t cut them off for the entire weekend. My friends wouldn’t lie to me. (Pretending to be something they are not.)

 

[iloveangels]

Again, I never suspended my psychological freedom.

You are toying with words here.

To quote your previous statement, "We can open ourselves to the experience, or we can close ourselves off through skepticism. If I accept the invitation, I also accept that some things may also be asked of me. I may be asked to leave behind my watch, to allow myself to be unencumbered by a need to know the schedule. I might actually even allow somebody else to take care of me for a change. "

You, in your own words, chose to “open yourself up to the experience,” aka left behind your watch, unencumbered yourself of the need to know a schedule, etc etc.

That’s your choice and your choice alone. As I said before, some people enjoy this kind of psychological manipulation for one reason or another. Also some people get trapped in situations like this and feel that they will be called bad things if they resist etc. The social pressure to conform can be considerable in these situations.

I really don’t have much to say about that, except that’s it’s very dangerous practice and people have a right to know that they cannot legally be held against their will. It’s a basic right to be able to move about as one wishes and think what one wants to think without coercion.

I’ll bet if you refuse to give up your watch & you hang onto your car keys and your cell phone, you can’t continue. I’ll bet if you step out for a solitary hour’s walk along about Saturday afternoon and swing by the gas station for a soda, you’re done. Am I right?

 

[DebChris]

Although you do know your sponsor, your sponsor doesn’t attend with you. Generally, you are thrust into a group of people that you don’t know.

They even seat you at a table full of people you don’t know. I was warned that even if I knew people on the weekend, The organizers would be sure to seat me with people I didn’t know.

So, no, these are not your friends. My friends, I know and trust. My friends would encourage friendships with people I might actually see again. My friends would understand that my family is important to me and wouldn’t cut them off for the entire weekend. My friends wouldn’t lie to me. (Pretending to be something they are not.)

I have seen the people with whom I made Cursillo again. My table leader joined me in the weekly reunion group headed by my sponsor. There are also ultreyas, larger reunions of Curstilistas. It is also nice discovering that other friends of mine are also Custillistas.

There can be freedom in sitting with people you don’t know. If you do choose to share parts of your life, they cannot add to your personal narrative. What they might be able to do is share similar experiences from their own lives. One group of friends is not going to dominate the conversation.

Cursillos and personal retreats are viable spiritual experiences. Yes, family and friends are important. St. Paul even tells husbands and wives not to separate, except for short periods of time for prayer. That short period of time can be a weekend. It might be a week. If I trust my husband, I will give him the freedom to go away for a weekend to learn more about the faith we share. Likewise, if he wants to spend a week at a Trappist monastery, I will not stand in his way. When he returns, I am not going to nag him for every detail of what happened. I would leave it to him as to how much he wants to share.
You might like reading Gift of the Sea. Couples can actually grow closer by giving each other the freedom to spend time apart. I do like that Cursillo requests candidates to seek spousal consent before making a weekend.

 

[iloveangels]

I have seen the people with whom I made Cursillo again. My table leader joined me in the weekly reunion group headed by my sponsor. There are also ultreyas, larger reunions of Curstilistas. It is also nice discovering that other friends of mine are also Custillistas.

There can be freedom in sitting with people you don’t know. If you do choose to share parts of your life, they cannot add to your personal narrative. What they might be able to do is share similar experiences from their own lives. One group of friends is not going to dominate the conversation.

Cursillos and personal retreats are viable spiritual experiences. Yes, family and friends are important. St. Paul even tells husbands and wives not to separate, except for short periods of time for prayer. That short period of time can be a weekend. It might be a week. If I trust my husband, I will give him the freedom to go away for a weekend to learn more about the faith we share. Likewise, if he wants to spend a week at a Trappist monastery, I will not stand in his way. When he returns, I am not going to nag him for every detail of what happened. I would leave it to him as to how much he wants to share.
You might like reading Gift of the Sea. Couples can actually grow closer by giving each other the freedom to spend time apart. I do like that Cursillo requests candidates to seek spousal consent before making a weekend.

Changing the subject. Classic maneuver, but not successful in this case.

What happens if you won’t give up your cell phone and wristwatch?

And what happens if you spend too long in private? Like in the bathroom. Yes, at these things I’ll bet they keep track of where everyone is, right?