Cursillos: an ecumenical experience

[EvangelCatholic]

Of course we all have personal restrictions and we all make personal sacrifices. But undressing in front of other women is not a sacrifice that I will make for anyone, ever. I got so tired of hearing everyone talk talk talk talk talk that I was ready to throw up. I have a very quiet home and live alone, so this much time with people and not a minute to myself was very bad. I don’t need someone to walk with me to get a tylenol and watch me take a pill for a headache. They “forgot” to tell me when it was time to take medications, that’s DANGEROUS.
The leader of the giving group didn’t know how to say a Hail Mary, and she was a cradle catholic. I promise you that Jesus did not form in any wound. And this woman had children, I wondered if she really thought she had a wound where she carried them.
No, when I’m backed into a corner, I either remove myself from that corner, or I fight back and so I didn’t want to argue with these people, I removed myself
And I was the only person on that weekend (except for the priest) who wasn’t married. All the talks were geared to women with husbands and husbands who had made their cursillo. Not one word about a widow/single person and how everything would affect them. Nope, not a nice place at all. I had months of nightmares over it. And if you don’t get it, they aren’t very nice about it either. They don’t sit down and talk you through it or explain anything, it’s always more of the “you just have to experience it” **** even when you are there. And quite frankly, that’s BS and a cheap chicken way out of it.

I’m sure there are those who have had wonderful weekends. But that was NOT my experience and I believe that before people attend a weekend, they should hear more than “you have to experience it” when they have questions.

And if you want to have a conversation about sacrifices, I would be most happy to go toe to toe with you on that one. Please don’t think that I haven’t make some huge sacrifices in my life just because I find the cursillo stuff very hurtful. You know, we are all different and there are different stroked for different folks.

Please be assured that Cursillios are never to do damage but rather to uplift. I am so sorry to read your account and sincerely apologize. Not considering the needs of singles must be addressed. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Della]

It is often good for us to put ourselves in the company of others with whom we do not feel comfortable. I have no children, either, but I am married. The women my age talk of nothing but their grandchildren and their medical conditions. But, they are my sisters in Christ whether or not I find their company appealing.

If you needed meds at a certain time you could simply say so. I didn’t have meds taken away from me, and frankly I wouldn’t allow it, either. That was taking things too far, I certainly agree with that.

What I meant by we all make sacrifices is that it is common to us all. Some of us have to make more than others, and everyone’s is as legitimate as anyone else’s. It’s only that it really doesn’t do any good to make too much of one experience that you didn’t care for. Were there things that were done that shouldn’t have been? I think there were, but I also think that parts of the weekend Cursillo that make us look into our hearts is a good thing. We all need to be challenged from time to time. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[maryjk]

It is often good for us to put ourselves in the company of others with whom we do not feel comfortable. I have no children, either, but I am married. The women my age talk of nothing but their grandchildren and their medical conditions. But, they are my sisters in Christ whether or not I find their company appealing.

And to listen, for an entire weekend, to people talk about how to live a life with children would be boring. And quite frankly, annoying. It would be the same as going to a weekend class about child birth. What a waste of my time.

If you needed meds at a certain time you could simply say so. I didn’t have meds taken away from me, and frankly I wouldn’t allow it, either. That was taking things too far, I certainly agree with that.

The point was, she was not allowed to have a watch. Of course, without a watch, how do you know what time it is? And if you need to take medication on a schedule, how do you do that, if you don’t know what time it is?

So, instead of allowing her to have a watch, they told her, “We will take care of you. We will tell you when to take your medicine.” Then they “forgot.”

What I meant by we all make sacrifices is that it is common to us all. Some of us have to make more than others, and everyone’s is as legitimate as anyone else’s. It’s only that it really doesn’t do any good to make too much of one experience that you didn’t care for. Were there things that were done that shouldn’t have been? I think there were, but I also think that parts of the weekend Cursillo that make us look into our hearts is a good thing. We all need to be challenged from time to time. That’s all I’m saying.

And it would make sense to tell people what the weekend is about.

All of this secrecy is for the birds. It is childish. It reminds me of a group of children that walk around saying, “I know a secret and youuuuuu donnn’'tttt.”

They say they don’t want to spoil it. But it sounds more like they know people wouldn’t go if they knew what they would have to put with.

 

[Della]

And to listen, for an entire weekend, to people talk about how to live a life with children would be boring. And quite frankly, annoying. It would be the same as going to a weekend class about child birth. What a waste of my time.

Cursillo is not supposed to be a weekend of people sharing stories about their kids or their family life–it’s supposed to be a spiritual retreat not a “sharing” time or a pity party or anything else. That it was that for gh4 is a real pity, and I have said so.

The point was, she was not allowed to have a watch. Of course, without a watch, how do you know what time it is? And if you need to take medication on a schedule, how do you do that, if you don’t know what time it is?

So, instead of allowing her to have a watch, they told her, “We will take care of you. We will tell you when to take your medicine.” Then they “forgot.”
And it would make sense to tell people what the weekend is about.

Yes, that was bad. If it had been me I’d have complained to those in charge and let them know the dangers of doing things that way. The reason the watches are taken away is so people will divorce themselves of time and space and simply concentrate on the retreat. In this case, though they went too far and against the spirit of Cursillo.

All of this secrecy is for the birds. It is childish. It reminds me of a group of children that walk around saying, “I know a secret and youuuuuu donnn’'tttt.”

They say they don’t want to spoil it. But it sounds more like they know people wouldn’t go if they knew what they would have to put with.

Again, it is kept secret so people will be, hopefully, pleasantly surprised, not because there is anything particularly strange or arcane about it. If the participants know what is going to happen they may be thinking of the next thing to come instead of simply living in the moment–which is part of the Cursillo experience.

 

[maryjk]

Again, it is kept secret so people will be, hopefully, pleasantly surprised, not because there is anything particularly strange or arcane about it. If the participants know what is going to happen they may be thinking of the next thing to come instead of simply living in the moment–which is part of the Cursillo experience.

Sorry, I know too many people that have gone and have come back and said, I wouldn’t have gone if I had known.

 

[Della]

Sorry, I know too many people that have gone and have come back and said, I wouldn’t have gone if I had known.

That’s too bad. Perhaps their Cursillos weren’t conducted as they ought to be, then. I can’t dismiss the whole movement based on that, however–I don’t expect you would want me to. Such encounters are very delicate things, which is why they need to be properly supervised under the auspices of one’s bishop.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

I know these are popular amongst Episopalians

 

[Della]

I know these are popular amongst Episopalians

Lutherans, too, but it started in Spain as a Catholic spiritual retreat for laymen, emphasis on the word men to reenergize their faith.

 

[gh4]

I
If you needed meds at a certain time you could simply say so. I didn’t have meds taken away from me, and frankly I wouldn’t allow it, either. That was taking things too far, I certainly agree with that.

No watches, so no idea of what time it is. Hard to take them on time if you don’t know what time it is, no matter who’s got them.

 

[Della]

No watches, so no idea of what time it is. Hard to take them on time if you don’t know what time it is, no matter who’s got them.

Yes, I’d forgotten about that. They should have let you have your watch when you have to take meds at certain times of the day–Cursillo is not supposed to be an imitation of prison life but of religious life–as well as modeling Christian behavior. I fully sympathize with you. The person who was supposed to monitor your meds certainly fell down on the job, although I don’t think anyone but you should have been doing that. Christian duty would have demanded that they take good care of you, which they didn’t.

In my case not having a watch would not have been a problem because I take mine with and around meals, plus one just before bedtime. I wrote before and do so again–it was odd they demanded that you turn your meds over to them. That should never have happened. I agree with you that that was unnecessary and dangerous! :yup:

 

[BlueRoses12]

First of all, you have no right to decide on behalf of others that it is “good” to be put in what you deem merely “uncomfortable” situations. You have no idea what they might already be going through – and what this added stress, which you have no way to evaluate, might affect them.

If you needed meds at a certain time you could simply say so.

I can’t believe you said that.

Truly … and I’m trying not to be nasty here … but if you’re going to engage in debate about Cursillo, and make confident blanket statements about it, the purpose it serves, why it was created, etc., I really think it behooves you to find out more about it. Meds being confiscated at the same time as watches are, in many present and past Cursillos, is a really basic fact. A tradition.

A very dangerous one, too, I agree. I can’t quite understand why it would be legal. My sister, a nurse, said one had to have certain qualifications to pass medications. Joe Blow down the street can’t decide to take the task upon himself. Point being, it requires someone both competent and serious. And it should require more consent than merely springing the idea on the candidate in the bewildering hubbub as they arrive for their weekend.

There was much light shed on another thread on this board, titled merely “Cursillo.” Here are some online reading sources, mentioned therein, that will be informative:

sites.google.com/site/pwcjpowell/cursillo

missionmoment.blogspot.com/20…a-sort-of.html

gpodder.net/podcast/apologet…-manipulate-me

forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-b…;f=70;t=012607

questioningcursillo.com/index.html - This web page is packed with information.

Here is where they discuss the techniques:

questioningcursillo.com/9.html

"These techniques are often referred to as “surprises.” While this may sound quite innocent, the “surprises” are actually a relentless series of powerful, psycho-social techniques which are commonly employed in forms of secular psychotherapy and often used by unscrupulous, cultic groups. …]

"A sense of anticipation is created in the candidates as an aura of mystery surrounds the approaching weekend due to the enforced secrecy. During the weekend itself candidates are exposed to emotional washing as they are run through a series of sudden and dramatic emotional shifts (the “surprises”). The technique of love bombing is used as candidates are continually applauded, flattered, and pampered. Strong peer pressure is exerted on them as the group direction, dominated by the numerous leaders present, is carefully steered toward the climax. And there is a reversion to childhood: candidates sit in table groups and draw posters with markers or crayons just like they did in elementary school, as a continual, silly, playful mood is fostered during the weekend.

"We should mention also the unavoidable sleep deprivation, the withdrawal of familiar comforts and supports (no cell phones, only strangers in your table group, etc.), the loss of time consciousness (windows are covered, watches are confiscated, and no schedule is published), sensory over-stimulation (hugging, back rubs, close physical contact with strangers), and sometimes even dietary modifications resulting in a sugar high.

"The purpose of these techniques is to keep the candidate disoriented and to break down their resistance and defense mechanisms. And the goal of this disorientation and wearing down is to precipitate a cathartic experience. …] This is quickly redirected into exuberant joy, and the candidate is assured that they have had a powerful, religious experience. Most often this translates into a new commitment to the Cursillo agenda, a close bonding with similarly-affected, fellow candidates, and a loyalty to and affection for the leaders. [end of quote]

In the other thread, a participant said, “I suggest you find more about Cursillo before you take the leap. You may undergo a permanent life-long irreversable change by attending a Cursillo.” That is true for many, and for some of us, it was to our detriment and regret. I choose to make value out of this experience by warning vulnerable people who might attend a weekend in ignorance and be harmed.

 

[BlueRoses12]

whoops, got the url wrong
missionmoment.blogspot.com/2007/09/cursillo-i-have-no-idea-sort-of.html

 

[Della]

I truly think some of us are making way too much out of one weekend retreat conducted badly. If properly done, Cursillo is a very effective tool for revitalizing faith in many. It’s too bad that it was misused in some cases, but overall, it’s a good thing that needs to be supported when it is good and corrected when bad. After all, people also have bad Mass experiences, marriage experiences, confirmation experiences, confession experiences, etc. We don’t throw those out because of it. We correct the abuses.

 

[maryjk]

I truly think some of us are making way too much out of one weekend retreat conducted badly. If properly done, Cursillo is a very effective tool for revitalizing faith in many. It’s too bad that it was misused in some cases, but overall, it’s a good thing that needs to be supported when it is good and corrected when bad. After all, people also have bad Mass experiences, marriage experiences, confirmation experiences, confession experiences, etc. We don’t throw those out because of it. We correct the abuses.

What some of us are getting at, after lots and lots of research, is that the “badly” done Cursillos are the ones that are doing it right. The good ones are the outliers. And therefore, we shouldn’t support it at all, because overall, it isn’t a good thing.

 

[BlueRoses12]

Sigh. Third time’s the charm. (Note to self: be more diligent in checking out urls before posting.)

gpodder.net/podcast/apologeticscom-weekly-radio-show/are-you-trying-to-manipulate-me

This is a podcast from 2010 with the author of Cursillo: Little Courses In Catharsis. Yes, I checked that it still works, the arrow-button below the headline still downloads the podcast.

forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=70;t=012607

A thread in which the problems are discussed, such as how to prevent “control-freak leaders” from taking over. One of the problems is that there are so few safeguards. Another is that their methods are so similar to those of cults.

 

[Della]

No doubt there are some methods employed that are too far out there. That was not the original intent when it started in Spain in 1944. It was merely meant to be a weekend retreat to reenergize the faith for lay leaders: ask.com/wiki/Cursillo?o=2801&qsrc=999. Other eccelesial bodies got hold of the idea and it morphed into something other than originally intended. It’s sad that even a Catholic Cursillo can go so horribly wrong. But thousands of people have gone through it and come out the better for it. So, I cannot condemn it wholesale because of abuses and misuses.

 

[BlueRoses12]

I truly think some of us are making way too much out of one weekend retreat conducted badly.

I think you probably haven’t done much thinking about this until now. Haven’t seen the need to. Which is okay. This is probably all new information for you.

Bottom line: Cursillo is known to be harmful to people with emotional or psychiatric stressors in their lives. And how do we know who they are???

Cursillo groups themselves warn about this – although not very thoroughly, and their warning is aimed at sponsors, not potential candidates. Potential sponsors, however, seem too delicate to ask the important questions (or too eager to find fresh meat!).

Because of the intense value of secrecy, most questions by the prospective candidate are stonewalled.

It’s stressful for anyone to have their boundaries willfully ripped open, even by the trustworthy. Those who are stable and hardy can take it. Those who aren’t, can’t – and it’s much worse when done by those who are inept or acting out of their own sick needs.

It’s far more than “one weekend retreat conducted badly” – how long does an inescapable experience have to last, to count as harmful? How long does one have to stay in the pressure cooker, fighting flashbacks?

And, as maryjk says, the harmful weekends are more true to the founder’s vision.

 

[Della]

I think you probably haven’t done much thinking about this until now. Haven’t seen the need to. Which is okay. This is probably all new information for you.

Bottom line: Cursillo is known to be harmful to people with emotional or psychiatric stressors in their lives. And how do we know who they are???

Cursillo groups themselves warn about this – although not very thoroughly, and their warning is aimed at sponsors, not potential candidates. Potential sponsors, however, seem too delicate to ask the important questions (or too eager to find fresh meat!).

Because of the intense value of secrecy, most questions by the prospective candidate are stonewalled.

It’s stressful for anyone to have their boundaries willfully ripped open, even by the trustworthy. Those who are stable and hardy can take it. Those who aren’t, can’t – and it’s much worse when done by those who are inept or acting out of their own sick needs.

It’s far more than “one weekend retreat conducted badly” – how long does an inescapable experience have to last, to count as harmful? How long does one have to stay in the pressure cooker, fighting flashbacks?

And, as maryjk says, the harmful weekends are more true to the founder’s vision.

Did you get the chance to read the article I linked? People who are easily stressed know who they are and so shouldn’t put themselves in situations in which they will be enclosed with other people. No one can say they don’t know that is part of Cursillo because it’s the very nature of it. It’s supposed to be a time of learning and training, not a boo-who session or a sharing of one’s most intimate secrets, etc. Those that are doing that kind of thing are doing it wrong.

 

[BlueRoses12]

People who are easily stressed know who they are and so shouldn’t put themselves in situations in which they will be enclosed with other people. No one can say they don’t know that is part of Cursillo because it’s the very nature of it.

Thank you. You just made this exchange complete. So it’s the candidate’s fault.

I guess I was wearing too short a skirt, huh?

 

[maryjk]

Did you get the chance to read the article I linked? **People who are easily stressed know who they are and so shouldn’t put themselves in situations in which they will be enclosed with other people. ** No one can say they don’t know that is part of Cursillo because it’s the very nature of it. It’s supposed to be a time of learning and training, not a boo-who session or a sharing of one’s most intimate secrets, etc. Those that are doing that kind of thing are doing it wrong.

But it isn’t just people that are easily stressed.

And be honest here. Please. NO ONE will talk about what happens on the weekend. That is my point. It is all oh so secret. Remember my comment, “I know something you don’t know.”

So if no one will talk about what happens on a weekend, how are people suppose to know if they are putting themselves into situations in which they will be enclosed with other people? And I thought everyone was free to leave, walk around, get away? Why would they be “enclosed with other people?”