Custodian fined for destroying images of Buddha, Mary Poppins in Omaha cathedral

[Augustine]

bit.ly/1MunSHj

And the rector and the bishop should perform self flagellation in front of the faithful to atone for their sacrilege.

St. Nicholas, pray for us!

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

Henry II was flagellated for causing the death of Thomas Becket. I’m not sure that a figure of Mary Poppins rises to that level. In any case, the custodian - not for the first time - destroyed property that wasn’t his, and was a self-appointed judge, jury, and, in effect, executioner regarding items and a display that had the approval of proper church authorities. Given the custodian’s prior record with similar violations of the civil law, a fine seems too light; perhaps some jail time would give him the proper perspective.

 

[John_Lazarus]

Henry II was flagellated for causing the death of Thomas Becket. I’m not sure that a figure of Mary Poppins rises to that level. In any case, the custodian - not for the first time - destroyed property that wasn’t his, and was a self-appointed judge, jury, and, in effect, executioner regarding items and a display that had the approval of proper church authorities. Given the custodian’s prior record with similar violations of the civil law, a fine seems too light; perhaps some jail time would give him the proper perspective.

I didn’t see that in the article. What am I missing?

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I didn’t see that in the article. What am I missing?

I think you will find this article to be much more informative

omaha.com/columnists/kelly/kelly-with-a-pair-of-bolt-cutters-and-sense-of/article_6b73936c-9e2b-5ba4-8e19-cc9518c219ca.html

The man has serious issues. The civil authorities should have taken far more drastic actions against him, at the very least remanding him to some sort of care and rehabilitation.

He caused thousands of dollars of damage and acted in a way that violated civil law to say nothing of his actions against the Church. If I were the archbishop or the rector, I would be seeking a restraining order against this person.

At the very least, they have revoked his ability to be near children…it should apply to the elderly as well. He has no place being around vulnerable populations, given this history. He should be treated as a danger to society, for that matter. Clearly, he needs help. I hope he finds it before he does more harm.

Given the custodian’s prior record with similar violations of the civil law, a fine seems too light; perhaps some jail time would give him the proper perspective.

You’ll forgive me but I think, in light of this quote, only extreme help could assist this poor man:

Kenney — who has served three terms of up to six months in federal prisons for crossing security lines at military bases in protest of nuclear weapons — then knelt at the communion rail and prayed until officers arrived and handcuffed him.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Anger management wouldn’t hurt either.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Anger management wouldn’t hurt either.

 

[jaimeleglise]

I am shocked that those secular items were hanging at a cathedral.

 

[CaptFun]

bit.ly/1MunSHj

And the rector and the bishop should perform self flagellation in front of the faithful to atone for their sacrilege.

St. Nicholas, pray for us!

Judges 6:25 That same night the LORD said to him, "Take the seven-year-old spare bullock and destroy your father’s altar to Baal and cut down the sacred pole that is by it.

26 You shall build, instead, the proper kind of altar to the LORD, your God, on top of this stronghold. Then take the spare bullock and offer it as a holocaust on the wood from the sacred pole you have cut down."

27 So Gideon took ten of his servants and did as the LORD had commanded him. But through fear of his family and of the townspeople, he would not do it by day, but did it at night.

28 Early the next morning the townspeople found that the altar of Baal had been destroyed, the sacred pole near it cut down, and the spare bullock offered on the altar that was built.

29 They asked one another, “Who did this?” Their inquiry led them to the conclusion that Gideon, son of Joash, had done it.

30 So the townspeople said to Joash, “Bring out your son that he may die, for he has destroyed the altar of Baal and has cut down the sacred pole that was near it.”

31 But Joash replied to all who were standing around him, “Do you intend to act in Baal’s stead, or be his champion? If anyone acts for him, he shall be put to death by morning. If he whose altar has been destroyed is a god, let him act for himself!”

32 So on that day Gideon was called Jerubbaal, because of the words, “Let Baal take action against him, since he destroyed his altar.”

Maybe it is a sacrilege and the Holy Spirit moved this man to do what he did?

I might not be able to serve on THAT jury anyhow.

If instead of Mary Poppins it was … a controversial political figure NOT of your liking that was featured in the church… would it change your (anyone’s) opinion of what he did?

http://mypartyshirt.com/media/catal...8d6e5fb8d27136e95/u/s/us-presidents-masks.png

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Maybe it is a sacrilege and the Holy Spirit moved this man to do what he did?

I might not be able to serve on THAT jury anyhow.

If instead of Mary Poppins it was … a controversial political figure NOT of your liking that was featured in the church… would it change your (anyone’s) opinion of what he did?

It was the cultural festival being observed in the cathedral.
The man destroyed thousands of dollars in private property.
He committed a criminal act.

 

[Pelly]

How can a Buddha statue be permissible to be displayed in a church?

 

[Memaw]

I think you will find this article to be much more informative

omaha.com/columnists/kelly/kelly-with-a-pair-of-bolt-cutters-and-sense-of/article_6b73936c-9e2b-5ba4-8e19-cc9518c219ca.html

The man has serious issues. The civil authorities should have taken far more drastic actions against him, at the very least remanding him to some sort of care and rehabilitation.

He caused thousands of dollars of damage and acted in a way that violated civil law to say nothing of his actions against the Church. If I were the archbishop or the rector, I would be seeking a restraining order against this person.

At the very least, they have revoked his ability to be near children…it should apply to the elderly as well. He has no place being around vulnerable populations, given this history. He should be treated as a danger to society, for that matter. Clearly, he needs help. I hope he finds it before he does more harm.

You’ll forgive me but I think, in light of this quote, only extreme help could assist this poor man:

Kenney — who has served three terms of up to six months in federal prisons for crossing security lines at military bases in protest of nuclear weapons — then knelt at the communion rail and prayed until officers arrived and handcuffed him.

Thank you Fr. I can assure everyone that Fr. Gutgsell is a holy Priest and so is our Archbishop Lucas. This man, (Kenny), is truly disturbed and needs help. Everyone should extend some prayers for him and not be so judgemental about the whole situation. The Theme was about Movies after all. God Bless, Memaw

 

[gus]

The comments amaze me.
I can’t believe they come from people who call themselves Catholic

The people on this board would have had Jesus sent to anger management classes or served jail time for driving the money changers out of the temple.
How dare this trouble maker interfare with the commerce of the holy temple.
This man went to jail because he had the strength of his connivictions to oppose nuclear weapons which he had a first hand Knowledge of ,just like many Catholic’s have been sent to jail for protests. Who here has that kind of strength?
Frankly the actions of the priest and Bishop are undefensable.
and appatently the diocese is going to prevent future events in that house of God.
This man actually won by the strength of his convictions and not bowing to the Baal gods of money. Which sadly you see no problem with.

 

[Pulvis]

The comments amaze me.
I can’t believe they come from people who call themselves Catholic

The people on this board would have had Jesus sent to anger management classes or served jail time for driving the money changers out of the temple.
How dare this trouble maker interfare with the commerce of the holy temple.
This man went to jail because he had the strength of his connivictions to oppose nuclear weapons which he had a first hand Knowledge of ,just like many Catholic’s have been sent to jail for protests. Who here has that kind of strength?
Frankly the actions of the priest and Bishop are undefensable.
and appatently the diocese is going to prevent future events in that house of God.
This man actually won by the strength of his convictions and not bowing to the Baal gods of money. Which sadly you see no problem with.

 

[zz912]

Thank you Fr. I can assure everyone that Fr. Gutgsell is a holy Priest and so is our Archbishop Lucas. This man, (Kenny), is truly disturbed and needs help. Everyone should extend some prayers for him and not be so judgemental about the whole situation. The Theme was about Movies after all. God Bless, Memaw

Cathedrals shouldn’t be used to showcase such things. And there should DEFINITELY not be statues of Buddha in a Cathedral. At. All.

 

[CaptFun]

CaptFun responds in RED

It was the cultural festival being observed in the cathedral. < There’s the rub. SHOULD a cultural festive BE observed IN the CATHEDRAL?
The man destroyed thousands of dollars in private property. < MY post didn’t address this aspect of course. But per that theoretical (soon to be less so) court case that I said I couldn’t be on the jury of – in the “Judges” scripture - Gideon did that too (indesputable fact … but … justified due to circumstances?)

He committed a criminal act. < Per the property TBD. Potentially technically true. Per the situation it might be murkier. A believer who truly thinks a holy place is being profaned takes action.

Jesus overturned tables in the Temple. It wasn’t “a cultural festival” but the holy place was being profaned and he took action.

The maintenance man in question may not be Gideon or Jesus … but I did think of those precedents as to “what is right in a Church”.

As per the vaunted " … separation of Church and State …" from the secular side of things – will “the state” intervene (on behalf of those whose property was messed with) … or will they say " … there’s nothing we can do … there’s separation of church and state!" ? My guess is … the former.

And beyond that I’ll guess that the maintenance guy will probably be penalized in the end.

His motivations notwithstanding.

Per the politics of the day … his “destroying” the Buddha image may rile people up against him (is this a “hate crime” even considering that it’s a Christian Cathedral and not a Buddhist Temple?). It’ll be interesting to watch this thing.

A similar incident in a Mosque or non-Christian Temple or place of worship might be treated differently than this will be IMO. An official maintenance person throws things out as part of his/her job routinely.

That’s an aspect of a possible defense that doesn’t require a presumption of either mean-spiritedness or saintly zeal.

Stream of consciousness interlude:

*" … it’s my job! There was no festival going on at the TIME. I was just getting their junk out of my (assigned area). WHY were these things LEFT there? Garbage to me."
*

 

[Memaw]

The comments amaze me.
I can’t believe they come from people who call themselves Catholic

The people on this board would have had Jesus sent to anger management classes or served jail time for driving the money changers out of the temple.
How dare this trouble maker interfare with the commerce of the holy temple.
This man went to jail because he had the strength of his connivictions to oppose nuclear weapons which he had a first hand Knowledge of ,just like many Catholic’s have been sent to jail for protests. Who here has that kind of strength?
Frankly the actions of the priest and Bishop are undefensable.
and appatently the diocese is going to prevent future events in that house of God.
This man actually won by the strength of his convictions and not bowing to the Baal gods of money. Which sadly you see no problem with.

I can’t believe it for another reason. Catholics being so judgmental about something they know very little about. The man has a history, and even if he did disagree with the display he had no right to break the law and destroy something that doesn’t belong to him. I don’t believe I’d blame his actions on the Holy Spirit or to try to use Scripture to defend him either. I have seen many of these Flower Festivals and I have enjoyed them as have thousands of others. I hope they continue as the Catholic Church has always been a promoter of Art and Culture. Maybe we should all get the DVD from avemariaraido.net, by Al Kresta, titled, “The World’s Debt to the Catholic Church.” Very educational. God Bless, Memaw

 

[CaptFun]

I can’t believe it for another reason. Catholics being so judgmental about something they know very little about. The man has a history, and even if he did disagree with the display he had no right to break the law and destroy something that doesn’t belong to him. I don’t believe I’d blame his actions on the Holy Spirit or to try to use Scripture to defend him either. I have seen many of these Flower Festivals and I have enjoyed them as have thousands of others. I hope they continue as the Catholic Church has always been a promoter of Art and Culture. Maybe we should all get the DVD from avemariaraido.net, by Al Kresta, titled, “The World’s Debt to the Catholic Church.” Very educational. God Bless, Memaw

I don’t believe I’d blame his actions on the Holy Spirit or to try to use Scripture to defend him either.

Far from being judgemental … I was considering some things from scripture where HOLY people “destroyed things” that were profaning a holy place. (That is … in those CASES they were right! Gideon was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God Himself).

Now < this maintenance guy is going to suffer in the comparison to THOSE two … even if he DID the right thing (disposed of things that didn’t belong in the Church he was maintaing as part of his job) for the best of possible reasons (remedying a scandal).

It would be CREDITING the Holy Spirit (for the inspiration or motivation) if what he did was right in that case – not blaming Him.

You make a number of good points that I don’t disagree with at all. Generally the destruction of property is not a good thing. It CAN be criminal.

On the other hand some of the blame might go to the Displayers … even if they weren’t trying to “profane a holy place”.

Shall we agree (at least) that the Mary Poppins and Buddha displays were not meant to be permanently enshrined in the Church unto perpetuity … and were not taken down promptly or guarded?

Flowers themselves are of value (and don’t profane a Church generally with an alternate message) … but a maintenance person might just “trash” them after a wedding or funeral as part of his job.

If I were doing a “flower festival” in a donated Buddhist Temple … and somehow included a giant cardboard Jesus as part of my donation … I don’t think I’d be surprised at its removal (even unto a trash can … and unhappily ripped in the process … whether the ripping were incidental … or with attitude! ).

Oops … should have gotten my decorations out of the place of worship! Brain cramp. Mea Culpa! < Was more in MY line of thinking.

Insights upon the actions of Gideon and JESUS … usually bear fruit worth having … even IF in THIS case the paralells were misapplied.

In THOSE cases it WASN’T. Although “the law” in both cases pursued both Gideon (immediately) and Jesus (generally from there on).

Meanwhile …

***THANKS for the tip on the Al Kresta book, Memaw. I like him on radio. And can probably learn something in that ***area.

Addendum: just noted your above reply was to ANOTHER poster (gus), not me. But regarded some things I’d included to the post immediately prior to yours.

 

[Memaw]

Far from being judgemental … I was considering some things from scripture where HOLY people “destroyed things” that were profaning a holy place. (That is … in those CASES they were right! Gideon was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Jesus was God Himself).

Now < this maintenance guy is going to suffer in the comparison to THOSE two … even if he DID the right thing (disposed of things that didn’t belong in the Church he was maintaing as part of his job) for the best of possible reasons (remedying a scandal).

It would be CREDITING the Holy Spirit (for the inspiration or motivation) if what he did was right in that case – not blaming Him.

You make a number of good points that I don’t disagree with at all. Generally the destruction of property is not a good thing. It CAN be criminal.

On the other hand some of the blame might go to the Displayers … even if they weren’t trying to “profane a holy place”.

Shall we agree (at least) that the Mary Poppins and Buddha displays were not meant to be permanently enshrined in the Church unto perpetuity … and were not taken down promptly or guarded?

Flowers themselves are of value (and don’t profane a Church generally with an alternate message) … but a maintenance person might just “trash” them after a wedding or funeral as part of his job.

If I were doing a “flower festival” in a donated Buddhist Temple … and somehow included a giant cardboard Jesus as part of my donation … I don’t think I’d be surprised at its removal (even unto a trash can … and unhappily ripped in the process … whether the ripping were incidental … or with attitude! ).

Oops … should have gotten my decorations out of the place of worship! Brain cramp. Mea Culpa! < Was more in MY line of thinking.

Insights upon the actions of Gideon and JESUS … usually bear fruit worth having … even IF in THIS case the paralells were misapplied.

In THOSE cases it WASN’T. Although “the law” in both cases pursued both Gideon (immediately) and Jesus (generally from there on).

Meanwhile …

***THANKS for the tip on the Al Kresta book, Memaw. I like him on radio. And can probably learn something in that ***area.

Addendum: just noted your above reply was to ANOTHER poster (gus), not me. But regarded some things I’d included to the post immediately prior to yours.

It’s not a book, it is a CD, (not a DVD), and really good. God Bless. Memaw

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Thankfully, we live in societies that are governed by the rule of law.

Individuals are not allowed to make determinations, based on their personal whims or mental illnesses, about the property of other people. The placement of Mary Poppins and Buddha was not his decision as a custodian.

We have long had cultural festivals in cathedrals. It is precisely where such things belong.

If this person found himself not in agreement with the policy of the cathedral, he should have quit. At least now he has terminated and had his certificate withdrawn… Hindsight is clear that it should never have been issued in the first place and in that is my one criticism: The man was repeatedly imprisoned for trespassing military installations. He is a danger to society. He displays the behaviour pattern of someone who should never have been employed by the Church.

I hope he is able to be forced into a program that helps the mentally ill…and, in keeping with basic moral theology, that he is required to make restitution for the property he destroyed – buying a new Buddha and Mary Poppins.

 

[EmperorNapoleon]

Thankfully, we live in societies that are governed by the rule of law.

Individuals are not allowed to make determinations, based on their personal whims or mental illnesses, about the property of other people. The placement of Mary Poppins and Buddha was not his decision as a custodian.

We have long had cultural festivals in cathedrals. It is precisely where such things belong.

If this person found himself not in agreement with the policy of the cathedral, he should have quit. At least now he has terminated and had his certificate withdrawn… Hindsight is clear that it should never have been issued in the first place and in that is my one criticism: The man was repeatedly imprisoned for trespassing military installations. He is a danger to society. He displays the behaviour pattern of someone who should never have been employed by the Church.

I hope he is able to be forced into a program that helps the mentally ill…and, in keeping with basic moral theology, that he is required to make restitution for the property he destroyed – buying a new Buddha and Mary Poppins.

I certainly don’t support what he did, BUT I think his motivations might have some merit. Cultural festivals on Cathedral grounds are not unusual, but it is it really appropriate to hold them in the nave instead of an undercroft?