Dangerous Catholics

[Polak]

Would you consider well known people such as Joe Biden, Michael Moore, Piers Morgan and others, who claim they are Catholics (and probably believe they are) to be dangerous, because they are giving people a false image of what Catholicism is and accepting sin as being completely okay?

I know there are probably many other Catholics like them, but things they say in public hold a lot of weight and are seen and heard by a lot of people.

I’m not getting into a left or right debate here, or criticising the political views they hold, I’m referring more to the fact that each of these men I have used in the example, are for instance, pro gay marriage and pro abortion and they actively advocate and/or campaign for those things, while stating that they are Catholics. There is even an episode of a morning program in the UK (that Piers Morgan presents) where he attacks a Catholic politician (Jacob Rees-Mogg) for his views on gay marriage and abortion (I can give a link to this later). So a Catholic attacking another Catholic for actually following Catholic teaching.

In many respects, I see people like this as worse that non Catholics advocating or campaigning for things like gay marriage or abortion, as the Catholics will often make statements saying they are Catholic and that they support such and such. It is like their way of hitting back at people who say they are against gay marriage, then somebody asks why, and they say ‘because I am Catholic’. Somebody like Piers Morgan will then say that he’s Catholic too and he has no problem with it, as if to say, being a Catholic is no excuse to be against it.

 

[edward_george1]

I disagree that the people you’ve named are “dangerous” in that they lead people away from the faith. I think people have to take you seriously as a representative of the faith in order for you to lead anyone astray. Even the most uninformed and unengaged of Catholics is not going to think of Piers Morgan or Joe Biden as an authority on matters of faith.

-Fr ACEGC

 

[Annie]

You should add Bill “i’m Catholic but…” O’Reily, and I think Sean Hannity. I don’t listen to them, but I think they are both that way.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Would you consider well known people such as Joe Biden, Michael Moore, Piers Morgan and others, who claim they are Catholics (and probably believe they are) to be dangerous, because they are giving people a false image of what Catholicism is and accepting sin as being completely okay?

Nope. We’ve always had “good” public Catholics and “bad” public Catholics. And sometimes people strongly disagree on which are which.
Besides, all people are sinners.

 

[steph03]

For some reason, when I read this I keep thinking of Jesus’ words in Matthew 7;

'Do not judge, and you will not be judged; 2. because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you. 3. Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own? 4. And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own? 5. Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.
-New Jerusalem Bible

So I will try my best to see the great log in my eye before I notice the splinter in my brother’s eye…

 

[Metis1]

Would you consider well known people such as Joe Biden, Michael Moore, Piers Morgan and others, who claim they are Catholics (and probably believe they are) to be dangerous, because they are giving people a false image of what Catholicism is and accepting sin as being completely okay?

That’s a non-sequitur, as many issues are not that one-sided.

Also, what should apply here is the “hate the sin, not the sinner” approach, which doesn’t label people but labels specific actions. Jesus taught us to “love one another as I have loved you”, and the application of that basic teaching can be complicated at times in terms of its application.

Finally, beware of politicizing Church teachings to the point whereas believing one side is supposedly angelic and the other is satanic-- it’s usually not that simple.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

They are all people. They have different life experiences.
I do not judge them for who they are or for what the believe.
I pray for all Catholics. May we all find the way to Sainthood.

 

[Lifeisbeautiful3]

If the pop-culture folks listed above are “bad Catholics” or “dangerous”, then name a celebrity or politician who is a good catholic.

 

[JulianN]

Would you consider well known people such as Joe Biden, Michael Moore, Piers Morgan and others, who claim they are Catholics (and probably believe they are)

If they are baptized, they are. They may be lapsed, they may be in dissent, etc., but they believe they are Catholic because they are Catholic.

 

[melonhead]

However, OP wasn’t judging in the sense of condemning people. He was discussing the impact of people who publicly support certain actions that have been condemned by the Church, yet say they are devout Church members.

 

[po18guy]

When any of us causes scandal, we should be corrected. Admonishing the sinner is a spiritual work of mercy. Bearing in mind that my admonishment should come first, there’s a whole lotta’ admonishing that needs to be going on these days.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, if I were Joe Biden’s personal friend, I’d be sure to “admonish” him, but I’m not, so I leave that to people who actually know him, like his family, his priest, etc. He also gets plenty of “admonishment” in the Catholic media and sometimes even a bishop has piped up.

I’m not really sure how a point about “admonishment” fits in here, unless you’re suggesting we should be sending a letter to some celebrity every time they (in our opinion) cause a scandal. We’d be sending letters all day in that case.

 

[po18guy]

Re-read your first paragraph.

Are not “bad Catholics” at risk of damnation and causing scandal at the same time?

How to fix that…???

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Re-read my response to you.
If it’s a politician, I can withhold my vote from them, assuming they are on a ticket in my district. Other than that, why should we have to spend all day long “admonishing” celebrities?

Again, if they are my personal friend, family member, guy I know from a parish group, fine…but we do not have the responsibility of “admonishing” the entire world of celebrity self-identified Catholics.

 

[JanR]

Thus far, you’ve only named Catholic men who are supporting sinful policies and behaviors. How about Nancy Pelosi? She claims to be Catholic, too – and look at how she is behaving. She wields a lot of power and, unfortunately, influence.

That said, our system of government – and the system in the UK – aren’t theocracies. They don’t have the final say. And thank goodness for that! Countries like Iran are governed by theocracies (with absolute power), and look at how that has worked out for the rest of the world.

Those who think for themselves aren’t going to be swayed away from their core values and beliefs. If they are, they never truly believed in them to begin with.

 

[Polak]

Finally, beware of politicizing Church teachings to the point whereas believing one side is supposedly angelic and the other is satanic

I am not politicizing. I specifically mentioned that this wasn’t a politically motivated post.

I think someone mentioned Hannity as being similar to the figures mentioned above in his beliefs, and he is on the other side of them politically. I would include him, and others on the right too, if they are suggesting sins and are not sins.

If the pop-culture folks listed above are “bad Catholics” or “dangerous”, then name a celebrity or politician who is a good catholic.

Well if it’s politicians you are after, most of the ones in the current Law and Justice ruling party in Poland would fit that. Or were you looking for specifically American examples?

If they are baptized, they are. They may be lapsed, they may be in dissent, etc., but they believe they are Catholic because they are Catholic.

Sure, it isn’t up to me to tell them if they are or are not Catholics. I even wrote that they would consider themselves to be Catholics. Perhaps that was badly worded though, as if I was suggesting they are not, even though they believe they are. My point was that they are not cultural Catholics, nor were they ‘brought up Catholic’, something people like to say when they are not Catholic anymore, but they believe themselves to be active practising Catholics now, and yet give these views, often on national television.

However, OP wasn’t judging in the sense of condemning people. He was discussing the impact of people who publicly support certain actions that have been condemned by the Church, yet say they are devout Church members.

Exactly right. I wasn’t condemning them for the beliefs they hold, but asking if it was dangerous that such prominent figures, with very big audiences, are declaring themselves Catholics, while clearly espousing non-Catholic practises. I know that a practising Catholic clued up in their faith, knows what they say is wrong, but someone else may take this as ‘well this guy is a Catholic and he says it’s okay, so perhaps the Catholics who are against it are just very extreme in their beliefs’?

By the way, for those who live outside the UK and not familiar with this clip, here is Catholic Piers Morgan hounding Catholic MP Jacob Rees-Mogg for his Catholic beliefs.

 

[Zach]

They are more a danger to themselves than anyone else. The recent news of a pastor refusing Communion to Biden is an example of this. If by their words and actions they are denied Sacramental Grace and ultimately perhaps God’s grace they will have to suffer the consequences regardless of what any layperson thinks about them.

 

[goout]

Yes I believe this sort of indifferent faith is corrosive to others.
It confirms others in their weakness and doubt.

You mention several people in your post, but the mandate to live with integrity applies to all of us without exception.
When I behave uncharitably or otherwise scandalize the faith, I am corroding the faith of others.
Jesus spent a lot of time criticising those who were nominally faithful, but actually burdened others.

 

[do_justly_love_mercy]

To be honest, I didn’t even know that Michael Moore and Piers Morgan are Catholics/describe themselves as Catholics. I think Michael Moore is a very talented polemicist. Piers Morgan always seems like he’s just a really unpleasant person. I’ve never paid any attention to what they say about religious topics as I didn’t know they had any religious background. I had just assumed that Piers Morgan would be Anglican, but then I also assumed he’d gone to public school and Oxbridge, but apparently not. I think the real danger is when things are said by people who do actually hold themselves out as speaking on behalf of the Catholic faith.

 

[Polak]

Thus far, you’ve only named Catholic men who are supporting sinful policies and behaviors. How about Nancy Pelosi? She claims to be Catholic, too – and look at how she is behaving. She wields a lot of power and, unfortunately, influence.

Oh yes sure, feel free to mention others I may have missed out. It wasn’t my intention just to pick on men. Those three I mentioned just happened to be people I thought of while writing the post.