Dark Night of the Soul?

[BarbaraTherese]

This is one of the first times the expression “dark night” crops up I think, nor was it the last…but it took St. Johnof The Cross to take the term and give it a very strict definition in spritual and mystical theology.

Cyprian of Carthage (died September 14, 258)

"When I was still in a dark night

it seemed to me extremely difficult and exhausting to do what the mercy of God was proposing to me. … I was bound by many mistakes of my past life and I didn’t think I could be free, to such extent that I would follow my vices and favored my sinful desires. … Later, with the help of the regenerative water, the misery of my previous life was washed away; a sovereign light illumined my heart; a second birth restored me to a completely new life. In a marvelous way, all doubt was swept away. … I understood clearly that what used to live in me were the worldly desires of the flesh and that, on the contrary, what the Holy Spirit had generated in me was divine and heavenly" (“A Donato,” 3-4).

 

[Roza]

I never even messed with my profile ha! Hmmm… maybe I should, some day. One of my favorite quotes came from a friend of mine 20 some odd years ago… ‘life is a tumultuous blur’… and at this moment, it is. But that’s a good thing, doesn’t last forever!!!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

In my times not having returned to Catholicism yet but out of the NAM… I’d call this time in my life some heavy duty pruning. Yeah, it’s hurting but you know, I know it’s a good thing. Doesn’t look good or feel good to me right now but prayerfully will bear better fruit down the road.

I hope and will pray that your sufferings will very soon be over…although when I read your post I thought how well you are responding to this time of difficulty and I what a great attitude! …What a great attitude! Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I never even messed with my profile ha! Hmmm… maybe I should, some day. One of my favorite quotes came from a friend of mine 20 some odd years ago… ‘life is a tumultuous blur’… and at this moment, it is. But that’s a good thing, doesn’t last forever!!!

Again…that great perspective and attitude shines brightly in the tumultuous blur …

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Joysong:

When you mentioned that St. John wrote in poetry, it seemed good to quote the stanzas he wrote and later described in detail. Many of our mystics have derived their own terminology to describe the indescribable. Because both Teresa and John are Doctors of the Church for having experienced the indescribable, we need to honor their words, yet realize their descriptions do not have the full force of language. At best, it is a simile.

… …No noun I think does fully depict the actuality. Language has a certain poverty. Certainly with the mystics they are in difficult terrain speaking about their experiences in language…since these experiences are confined to mystics and we do not all have the mystic experience to relate to as we read what the mystics had to say. The language of the mystics is always preceded by an understanding, taken as a for granted, meaning"something like this".
For example, if I say “tree” we all have the experience of a tree to relate to of what a tree is like. If I had never seen a tree, I would have no idea what the person was talking about, perhaps a vague understanding if a tree is then described to me. Not so with the language that mystics use other than a vague understanding as they describe their experiences. As you say, “at best, it is a simile.”

I will be sharing some of these ‘similes’ in the thread on recollection; for example, where Osuna, and afterwards St. Teresa spoke about the hedgehog to describe, again, the indescribable.

I did catch sight of the thread “Recollection” in the this Spirituality Forum.

Haven’t we also seen the confusion that results from misunderstanding the single word “contemplation?” Yes, terminology can be misleading and difficult, but I think its best we put our trust in those whom the Church upholds as Doctors, and pray that God will enlighten us through their works.

Understanding about spirituality is like travelling to an unknown place with a map.

 

[Joysong]

BarbaraTherese:

Understanding about spirituality is like travelling to an unknown place with a map.

I have to share something that had me roaring last night as I watched a special presentation on EWTN about Padre Pio. The journalist told him about a skeptic who did not understand the reality of Padre Pio’s stigmatized hands and feet. He believed it physically resulted from extreme meditation on Our Lord’s wounds.

Padre Pio gave a fantastic reply, “Well tell him to think exceedingly about “bull,” and we’ll see whether he grows horns!”

 

[Roza]

There was a time I let myself get all depressed about stuff. There was a time I used to be what they call a ‘cutter’. But staying in that funk never did much for me except make me feel worse & stay there. If I know Jesus and want to be part of those who can reach those who don’t know Him, can’t be down in the dumps & Ms. Sadsack, doesn’t work!

My wiccan friend was listing all these gods & goddesses and like I said before, she told me about ‘summerland’?? I told her, I ‘could’ worship the great white gerbil but I don’t think he’s real, I’d rather go to the one true God, Father Son & Holy Spirit. She said she didn’t believe in hell… I could choose not to believe in gravity but if I trip on something I’m reminded it’s real.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I have to share something that had me roaring last night as I watched a special presentation on EWTN about Padre Pio. The journalist told him about a skeptic who did not understand the reality of Padre Pio’s stigmatized hands and feet. He believed it physically resulted from extreme meditation on Our Lord’s wounds.

Padre Pio gave a fantastic reply, “Well tell him to think exceedingly about “bull,” and we’ll see whether he grows horns!”

… …literally ROFL!!!..mystics see reality with very keen and piercing perception! …going to bedhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_127.gif thinking thinking thinking exceedingly exceedingly exceedingly about money trees …

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Roza

There was a time I let myself get all depressed about stuff. There was a time I used to be what they call a ‘cutter’. But staying in that funk never did much for me except make me feel worse & stay there. If I know Jesus and want to be part of those who can reach those who don’t know Him, can’t be down in the dumps & Ms. Sadsack, doesn’t work!

Good observation and conclusion…not much goodpreaching the Good News if we are dour and long faced and a trial to be around…wheres the Good News in that huh? …

My wiccan friend was listing all these gods & goddesses and like I said before, she told me about ‘summerland’?? I told her, I ‘could’ worship the great white gerbil but I don’t think he’s real, I’d rather go to the one true God, Father Son & Holy Spirit. She said she didn’t believe in hell… I could choose not to believe in gravity but if I trip on something I’m reminded it’s real.

One day we will all know for sure and as an experienced fact in every way…no one gets out of here alive! What a stunning thought is Heaven and a life after death…awesome!..
And of course there is that point where belief ceases and knowledge walks in the door…when the Presence of The Lord is an experienced fact and one could no more deny the existence of God than deny one’s own existence…

 

[InLight247]

Hi InLight…the term “dark night” does predate St. John, (one of the early Church Fathers used this term but I cannot recall who)however prior to the writings of St. John it was not in common usage - St. John gave it ‘fame’ in The Church through his writings…and in secular society probably through his poetry which is very well known in certain secular circles still.

I see you have been reading my Profile!

Barb, to be honest, I haven’t been reading your profile, may be long long time ago when I first read your post, definitely not recent.

What I meant by mis-usage of dark night is based on what I saw so often on the thread from various (name removed by moderator)ut. Sometimes it almost looks like that people want to link their life’s hardships with the terminology of “dark night” to give what they are facing a spiritual meaning of untrue spiritual advancement.

 

[Joysong]

BarbaraTherese:

I was reading a book some time back that stated St. Teresa became a bit confused as a person shared with her exactly the same experiences as she had…and yet this person was not growing in virtue. Hence St. Teresa concluded and rightly, no growth in virtue, no authentic and true experience, no matter ‘how it sounds’.

For the most part, I’ve seen posts here that disclosed the sufferings of the night, and what the night is and what it is not. It might also be helpful to consider what some accompanying signs might be with regard to growth in virtue, as Barb mentioned earlier. How do we know whether it is the so-called “dark night” purifying us, or whether it is just the ordinary extremity of suffering trials?

Wonderful point, Barb! InLight posted an excellent observation recently, that there is a very delicate conscience in the person who is being purified. NOT scrupulosity, which is something altogether different, but a real heightened sensitivity to the quiet inspirations of the Holy Spirit, and a strong desire to avoid offending God, avoiding venial sin and ultimately even imperfections.

Few devotees of Mother Teresa know she made a vow under pain of mortal sin to “give to God anything that He may ask, not to refuse Him anything.” Incredible, magnanimous, heroic charity! We can determine therefore that she greatly excelled in virtue to have made such a vow, and conclude that her suffering in the dark night was that of a chosen “victim soul” whom God called to suffer on behalf of the Body of Christ. As did St. Therese, who made an offering of herself as a victim of love, as did Padre Pio, and countless holy ones who were so specially graced.

For those of us who are not quite so heroic, I think we can determine from our confessions how resolute our determination is not to fall into those sins again, and see real progress, and lessening relapses. There’s an old Grimm fairy tale about the Princess and the Pea that illustrates this point. When the farmer could not determine which claimant was the true princess, he decided to put a pea under the mattress and see what they reported after a night’s sleep. The first claimant replied that she slept like a log; but the second said that she tossed and turned all night, unable to rest — she was highly sensitive to the little insignificant pea.

Carole

 

[anon52328184]

i think joysong should pay closer attention to the second part of her signature.

 

[DBT]

may i ask what is a secular carmelite?

Deborah - No time to respond at the moment, so I copied this from our web site. Perhaps it will help answer your question.
"St Louis OCDS Website:

The Order of Carmel Discalced Secular is a community comprised of Lay Roman Catholics who live in the world while centering themselves on God and serving Him through the spirit of Carmel. We live under the constitutions of the Order and are part of the Carmelite family of Friars and Nuns.

As Carmelites, we seek to hear God in the quiet of our hearts through contemplation and prayer. We seek an interior union with our Lord while actively living out the ordinary events of our everyday lives. We take our example of living from Our Lady as a model for living our life focused on one thing, serving her Son. She is a woman of faith and obedience to whom we look as a companion and guide on our journey of faith. She is Mother and Sister as well as patroness. Her gentle presence pervades our lives. We wear the brown scapular she gave to us as it is a symbol of our dedication to her and of her motherly care for us.

Our community members follow the Carmelite Constitutions which include daily mass, the Liturgy of the Hours, daily Meditation, and Spiritual Reading. We also meet monthly in our very active Community at the Monastery. We regard our community as a great blessing and help in living our lives in Carmel. If you are interesting in learning more about our Carmelite community, please make a visit to our Chapel or join us for our monthly meeting on the third Sunday of the month.

The Carmelite history began on Mount Carmel in Israel in the 12th century. A group of hermits gathered there under the inspiration of the Prophet Elijah who had done God’s will there in ancient times. The influence of Elijah can be seen by his words on our Carmelite crest: “With zeal I am zealous for the Lord God of Hosts”. In the early 1200’s these desert monastics asked St. Albert of Jerusalem to give them a rule of life. Within fifty years of receiving their rule the Carmelite hermits were forced to leave Mount Carmel and settled in Europe. The Carmelites needed reform in the 16th century and this was led by Saints Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross. The new Order was known as the Discalced Carmelites.

i think joysong should pay closer attention to the second part of her signature.

I should also probably say that Joysong, too, is a long time Secular Carmelite . . . and a former formation director at that. I’ve met few souls with such a deep understanding of mystical theology as her. While you might not like that she chooses to speak from “books,” that’s simply her style of presentation . . . to let the Saints speak more so than her. But I can assure you, though, that these Dark Nights are firmly etched upon her heart. She knows them deeply from her own personal experience, although she probably wouldn’t say so herself for the obvious reasons. She has much to offer on these matters . . . and we would all do well to listen to what the Church, through her Saints, has to say. So let’s not throw rocks, OK?

Peace,
Dave

 

[InLight247]

I would say that on this forum, Joysong is one of the persons I have learned from the most.

Whether we can gain wisdom from a book or not, depends on couple things at least:

1. If the book itself contains true wisdom - I would think the books of the Church Doctors do contain true wisdom.
2. If the reader can truly read the wise book with thoughts, carefulness, reflections, understanding, and if he has a spirit of seeking the truth.

 

[anon52328184]

hi dave. thank you for the post. yes, i was confirmed july 15, 2008 at my catholic church named our lady of mt. carmel. i also chose the name theresa for my confirmation name after reading about st. theresa of avila and i lived in spain my junior year in college.

so i have done much reading about the carmelites and mt. carmel, etc.

yes, i read the profile of joysong.

i was baptized in 1954 and confirmed in 1968 in an anglican church.

i think what i am getting at is that a dark night of the soul is not exclusive to Catholics. people outside the Catholic church have dark nights of the soul, but they know nothing of the teachings of the Church.

i found joysong to be very condescending and what good is all of the meditating and contemplating if you are not demonstrating charity.

 

[anon52328184]

I would say that on this forum, Joysong is one of the persons I have learned from the most.

Whether we can gain wisdom from a book or not, depends on couple things at least:

1. If the book itself contains true wisdom - I would think the books of the Church Doctors do contain true wisdom.
2. If the reader can truly read the wise book with thoughts, carefulness, reflections, understanding, and if he has a spirit of seeking the truth.

i am not sure from where she obtained her signature, but i think the 2 points you made make sense.

 

[beckycmarie]

i found joysong to be very condescending and what good is all of the meditating and contemplating if you are not demonstrating charity.

Deborah, I have been bewildered by some of your posts in this thread. At one point you accuse Dave of being arrogant, and now you are calling Joysong condescending. How do such comments on your part demonstrate charity?

 

[anon52328184]

are you being serious?

 

[InLight247]

i am not sure from where she obtained her signature, but i think the 2 points you made make sense.

You were saying Joysong should pay attention to “Wisdom is not knowledge and cannot be attained from books.”

It seems that when she quoted St. John, you used the above quote to refer that wisdom cannot be attained from books, namely, cannot be obtained by reading St. John.

Therefore, I said the book has to be a book of wisdom, and St. John, as a church doctor, his books do contain wisdom. Therefore,if the reader is reflective, thoughtful, and truth seeking ,as Joysong is, wisdom surely could be obtained from good books.

I think her quote means that pure knowledge may not necessarily lead to wisdom. And just by reading books do not mean wisdom could be gained. Even reading a book of wisdom, it does not guarantee the reader can comprehend its true meaning. And that is very true.

 

[JReducation]

I never cease to be surprised by what I see on CAF. I never thought that a thread on the Dark Night of the Soul would be a place for too much argument or differences of opinion, as this has already been defined by the spiritual masters. We need to leave well enough alone. If something is not broken, let’s not attempt to fix it. Just try to understand it.

The term the Dark Night of the Soul is actually a Shakespearean term. It’s found in many of his sonnets to describe the feeling that comes when one perceives that he has lost a great love or hungers for a great love that feels unattainable.

Mystics cannot always put their experiences into words that do them justice. They have to borrow from what’s around them. They may be mystics, but their language abilities are still their own. Those with good language skills can explain things much more clearly than those who don’t hav those skills.

Writers like Julian of Norwich, Augustine, Francisco de Osuna, Catherine of Siena, Bonaventure. Aquinas, Teresa of Avila, John of the Cross and Catherine of Genoa spoke of these exeriences long before the term Dark Night of the Soul was coined by the Carmelite mystics. John and Teresa had discussed these events in spiritual direction, letters and confession for many years before their works appeared on the market.

Other mystics experienced the Dark Night of the Soul, but were unable to explain it as fluently for lack of language skills, such as Anthony of the Desert, Bl. Giles of Assisi, Rita of Cassia, Joseph Cupertino, John of God, and Mother Teresa of Calcutta. Their writings are simple, but very profound.

One look at the private writings of Mother Teresa and one can identify the elements of the Dark Night of the Soul. In fact she calls it by name. She writes in her letters about being in darkness and yet being sure that God is there, even when she can’t feel him or speak about him as she would like.

She often spoke of becoming the Patron Saint of Darkness when she got to Heaven, because she was so familiar with it. There is the remarkable dimension of the Dark Night of the Soul. The person is keenly aware of the darkness. They experience the pain and the anguish of trying to experience consolation and not finding it. However, the person never loses sight of God’s activity in their lives. Mother always felt that God had done this to her, because this is what he wanted and what she deserved. She didn’t deserve spiritual consolations. She was willing to live without them, even thoug it caused her sorrow. She was willing to live according to his will.

What she didn’t realize was the joy and peace that she radiated to others. It’s like the story of the emperor who was naked. Everyone could see his nakedness except him. In the case of the mystics who go through the Dark Night of the Soul others can see Christ in them and through them, but themselves. Because of the absence of consolations they perceive themselves to be the smallest creatures in God’s mind. Nonetheless, they know that are in God’s mind. There is no spiritual despair, even if there is an emotional sense of frustration.

A good mystical work that exemplifies this juxtaposition between darkness and light is the Cloud of Unknowing, whose author is unknown. It was written long before the Carmelite Doctors wrote their theology on the Dark Night and much of what is in this work is found in the writings of the Carmelite Doctors, but with more more linguistic refinement through the use of allegories, metaphors, symbols and personal reflection.

I would encourage anyone who wants to read about the Dark Night in its raw form to read the Cloud of Unknowing. A word of warning, it can be very frightening if you begin to project yourself into it. It was meant to be read to attain knowledge and wisdom, not to analyze oneselve.

Fraternally,

JR