Data that young people are attracted to the Latin Mass?

[otjm]

I have hope for the Church for several reasons: 1) Christ promised the Holy Spirit to guide the church; and I don’t know of any good theologian who would say that is limited to the Pope, or the Pope and the bishops, or those two plus the priests. The Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, and that includes us “pew warmers”. Christ wants salvation for all, but it is up to us to respond. 2) the Church is growing other than Europe and the US. we tend to a Eurocentric view of the Church, and that is, to put it politley, myopic. 3) numbers may Numbers are important to us; but also to God. I let God deal with what is important. I try my best to evangelize, poor as that may be; God expects my effort; the results are in his court.

1. God takes us where we are. We have a tendency to make judgments about others as if we had some inside track on the disposition of souls. We don’t. That is God’s issue. We owe our best efforts; how people respond is ultimately to be judged by God, and I believe God is both just and merciful, and likely to view matters differently than I might. In other words, I pray for people, and then let them work out their salvation with God, not with me. I have been asked the question by some Protestants “Are you saved?” and my answer is “I am saved, I am being saved, and I hope to be saved.” I also recall the Gospel phrase “To whom much is given, much will be required”. Again, ultimately, each is judged by that.
2. I think the Church has answered that to some extent within the document of Vatican 2; I do not have time to research that answer, but I accept the guidance of the bishops of the world - and the Pope - in the drafting of that document.
3. you are a newbie. Questions are good. God bless, and welcome home.

 

[babochka]

One thing I have noticed is that in diocesan TLM locations, there are growing number of people who are clearly newcomers — the women do not wear head coverings and some modes of dress are, charitably putting it, questionable. It’s more of a cross-section of society in general. This is a welcome trend.

I have also noticed this trend at the FSSP parish that I occasionally attend. It is a change that I have observed over the last 3-5 years.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

One thing I have noticed is that in diocesan TLM locations, there are growing number of people who are clearly newcomers — the women do not wear head coverings and some modes of dress are, charitably putting it, questionable. It’s more of a cross-section of society in general. This is a welcome trend.

Let them come, and let them feel welcome. Head covering for women, while reverent and closer to the Biblical ideal, is not absolutely necessary. And some people, most of all some women, really do not know any other way to dress — they think that tight jeans, ripped jeans, revealing blouses, and so on, are just “cute” or “attractive”, and they dress accordingly. They can be catechized on Christian modesty as they grow in appreciation of traditional spirituality.

To use an extreme example, in some mission areas, bare-breasted women have been tolerated at the beginning of their introduction to the faith, with catechesis about Christian modesty coming with time.

 

[otjm]

I have not attended the OF Masses you attended, so I cannot comment on the “degree” of reverence exhibited in them.

However, to cut a bit to the chase, the rubrics of the EF are more complex than the rubrics of the OF to a degree; additionally, as there are very few priests who say the EF, thsoe who do are very “centered” in it and for the very most part, are not rushed and are precise. I have attended many, many OF Masses where the priest is likewise very “centered” and precise, and I grew up in the 1950’s with a priest who was, to put it politely, very rushed. In short, I attended a multitude of EF Masses which were less than what you might consider “reverent”.

And I have been round long enough to have attended OF Masses which were, for lack of a better word, “pedestrian” in their delivery. Again, I have not attended the parishes you have attended; so I cannot determine if I would have judged them more reverent than you might have. Having attended Masses in the past by a priest whom many considered reverent, and was subsequently removed from ministry, I can say that sometimes we judge through our own set of lenses, and they have a tendency to color what we see - another way of saying that we at times have our own prejudices of which we are not aware.

 

[RCIAGraduate]

you are a newbie. Questions are good. God bless, and welcome home.

I concede I’ve been here for awhile and I have not been practicing for some time. Not interested in being reached out myself but gratitude for responding.

 

[otjm]

Interesting statistics; but I suggest the polls are between skewed and seriously skewed.

 

[CTBcin]

Though I would see myself on the more traditional end of the scale, I haven’t seen any data to show that Latin Masses are inherently more attractive to young people. A lot of trads point to very successful parishes with the EF as proof that tradition is more attractful. The only problem is that if you have a big city with lots of parishes, and only one EF parish, of course the EF parish will be successful. They’re a niche, and they often have people driving an hour or more to attend them. That’s how they fill the pews. Now, I’m totally supportive of EF parishes, but that’s the reality of the situation.

That being said, many who are attracted to the EF are young, and that’s good, but I don’t think it’s a substantial enough number to say that the EF is a magic bullet for attracting the young.

What I will say (anecdotally) is that young people do want reverent, prayerful Masses and an experience that is strikingly different from that of everyday life. They don’t want to be pandered to.

 

[TheMortenBay]

why are you attracted to Latin Mass?

I go to the traditional Mass about once a month. It’s wonderful to meet people who are as reverent as I aspire to be (and who are my age) and everything is ordered and faithful to the intention of the Missal. I love the obedience to the Church and the beautiful traditional prayers. I love the litanies and the novenas. I love the traditional values and the ability to go to confession before every Mass.
Some of these things are small, most of these things can be found at different OF Masses. But the TLM is the only place I’ve found that cares for all of tradition.

 

[Peeps]

While we’re only 4 strong families and a couple singles, we young people make up the active part of our EF indult masses. Anecdotally, it’s the most young people I’ve seen gathered anywhere in the Catholic Church, excluding youth masses which also attract young people.

Four families in your parish? And a couple of singles?

How do you pay the bills?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

That being said, many who are attracted to the EF are young, and that’s good, but I don’t think it’s a substantial enough number to say that the EF is a magic bullet for attracting the young.

What I will say (anecdotally) is that young people do want reverent, prayerful Masses and an experience that is strikingly different from that of everyday life. They don’t want to be pandered to.

It’s not a magic bullet, but at least it is something. And I am happy to know that young people want reverent, prayerful Masses. Who knows what you could see 50 years from now?

I go to the traditional Mass about once a month. It’s wonderful to meet people who are as reverent as I aspire to be (and who are my age) and everything is ordered and faithful to the intention of the Missal. I love the obedience to the Church and the beautiful traditional prayers. I love the litanies and the novenas. I love the traditional values and the ability to go to confession before every Mass.
Some of these things are small, most of these things can be found at different OF Masses. But the TLM is the only place I’ve found that cares for all of tradition.

Keep going. Regardless of rite, this is what going to church should be like.

 

[TheMortenBay]

Four families in your parish? And a couple of singles?

How do you pay the bills?

1: It’s an indult Mass, i.e. it’s celebrated in a fully operational OF parish around once per month for those interested. We only pay for the transport of the priests visiting.
2: We’re probably double that number of faithful in total. The four families and singles are the number of young people my age. Incidentally (?) they’re also the driving force behind the Masses.

 

[Peeps]

Ok, that makes sense.

We have had a Latin Mass (ICK) in our city for several decades. It started back in the 1990s because of the interest of various Catholics. One of my good friends was involved in getting it going.

I’ve played organ there several times. They were able to hire an organist with the training in traditional liturgy and also in chant, so I’m not needed!

In all these years, the parish has never gotten bigger than a few hundred people. I would say an equal mix of families with children (not just little ones, but all ages), and older people. Some singles.

I realize that this is anecdotal, but it’s based on almost 15 years of familiarity with the Latin Mass parish because of my friends who attend. The parish really doesn’t attract young people at all. In fact, it doesn’t seem to grow at all. The same people who started it are still there, and occasionally, a new family moves to town (perhaps because of the availability of the Latin Mass parish?) and joins.

But it definitely doesn’t attract young people, and not teenagers. The chant at the Latin Mass parish is definitely quite good, done by good singers (male) and taught by the excellent organist that I mentioned earlier. But it doesn’t seem to draw other teenagers, who seem much more attracted to the parishes that feature modern music, not in the Mass, but in the youth group meetings and get-together.

When I say “modern music,” I’m not talking about the half-century old Marty Haugen, et. al hymns. I’m talking about Matt Maher, Audrey Assaud, Mercy Me, Casting Crowns, etc.

Maybe the reason the Latin Mass parish doesn’t seem to attract Catholics in our area is because our bishop is diligent to make sure that the OF Masses are free of liturgical abuses. There are plenty of “contemporary” and “folk” OF Masses, but I would not call them “banal” or “irreverent” or “Protestant-sounding.” (Remember I was Evangelical Protestant for the first five decades of my life!). They’re just good Masses, with thoughtful homilies by wonderful priests, and the music is done mainly by volunteers, but it’s done as well as they can do it–no “divas”. Some of the cantors have better voices than others, but I would never criticize someone with a less-than-stellar voice who is willing to serve God by cantoring.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

This most probably (likely) warrants a thread but what is to be to the fate of the “innocents” or of the many who end up finding themselves separated from the Church due to things greater than them; for example, they were reached out to enough/properly or reaching out to them couldn’t be helped due to institutional limits? Like this is a crazy hypothetical but if there were more programs, more ministries, more outreach, something could be different? What will happen to innocent and kind people who find themselves separated from the Church due to concerns that she “failure” to hold them or catch them? I concede this possibly is driven my personal feelings.

This is a problem connected to the decrease in priest numbers and the gradual withdrawal of the church from the public sphere. There was a time that there were schools, hospitals, soup kitchens, etc etc that were not just Catholic in name but actually run by priests. In this way the Church was not just providing a service to the community at large but also had an outreach that made it easier for people to learn about the church or ask questions. Of course it went both ways as the grassroots presence also meant the Church was in touch with what people at large (and not just Catholics) were thinking and where the problems were.

Some of that still exists but it is much more difficult to find.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

I realize that this is anecdotal, but it’s based on almost 15 years of familiarity with the Latin Mass parish because of my friends who attend. The parish really doesn’t attract young people at all. In fact, it doesn’t seem to grow at all. The same people who started it are still there, and occasionally, a new family moves to town (perhaps because of the availability of the Latin Mass parish?) and joins.

Maybe part of the problem is the lack of exposure. Nobody, whether young or old, who has never heard of or been to a Latin mass, is going to get up one morning and say, I love the Latin Mass. I am guessing that those who attend do so because their parents took them to Latin Mass. So Vatican 2 ripped a huge gap in that continuity. I also don’t know whether the growth in attendance is due to new people switching over, or the fact that traditionalist Catholics typically have large families and there is thus the organic growth that modernist parishes are lacking. Remember growth through families is not linear but exponential, and so if we project this over another 200 years or so, there will probably be more Latin Masses than vernacular ones.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Four families in your parish? And a couple of singles?

How do you pay the bills?

A relative of mine attends a parish that has about 8 regular attendees. Zero children and average age definitely over 60. It’s in a small village and the priest comes in from a neighbouring village. I guess the diocese does a lot of shifting money around to make this sort of thing work.

 

[GordonP]

Remember growth through families is not linear but exponential, and so if we project this over another 200 years or so, there will probably be more Latin Masses than vernacular ones.

You’re operating on the very questionable assumption that all children brought up in the TLM movement will remain in the movement.

From what I gather reading Traditionalist websites, retention is a serious problem that threatens the very existence of the movement. Perhaps more of their children may remain Catholic, but most of those move on to non-traditionalist congregations, especially if they move away from home.

 

[Peeps]

You’re operating on the very questionable assumption that all children brought up in the TLM movement will remain in the movement.

From what I gather reading Traditionalist websites, retention is a serious problem that threatens the very existence of the movement. Perhaps more of their children may remain Catholic, but most of those move on to non-traditionalist congregations, especially if they move away from home.

I was thinking the same thing. In the 15 years that I’ve been familiar with our Latin Mass parish–you would think that there would have been exponential growth because of families growing up and starting families of their own But it really hasn’t.

As I said in another post, I think it’s helpful that our bishop makes sure that our OF Masses are liturgically-correct, so no one has to “escape” to a Latin Mass.

One thing that might have hurt the Latin Mass parish is a priest who was the pastor for quite a few years–he was obnoxious. I’m actually understating it out of respect for the priesthood of the man. I’m sure that many visitors decided never to return after encountering this priest. The current priest is a delightful young man who is friendly and interesting to talk to, and offers a beautiful Mass.

Finally, one more thing that probably impedes growth is our city itself. It’s in Northern Illinois, and Illinois is losing tens of thousands of people every year due to the incredibly high taxes and the corrupt State government run by one man (Speaker of the House Michael Madigan–he’s been on his throne for over 3 decades, and he rules with no mercy, and those who cross him end up losing the battle and usually their next election, too.)

Promotion is definitely not the problem. The Latin Mass parish is considered part of the diocese and appears in our diocesan newspaper, along with ads for the parish. The members are involved with various diocesan activities, retreats, etc. Also, the parish is in a very visible, heavily-trafficked area of the city, and it’s a beautiful historic church building. Finally, the organist at the parish is the director of a world-famous children’s choir in the city (the numbers have definitely gone down in recent years–see the thread and discussion about music and “Why Boys Don’t Sing”.)

I suspect that the Latin Mass parish doesn’t attract a lot of young people because they like what they are getting in their own parishes.

BTW, we do have some pretty popular Protestant megachurches in our city and one of the most famous in the world (Willow Creek) not that far away. So it’s likely, sad to say, that a lot of Catholics give these a try and end up staying for the good music, preaching, and delightful fellowship, as well as the excellent youth and children’s programs, and the well-organized charitable projects and outreaches.

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

It is the same for those of us who like to hear the words of God spoken to us in our native tongue. God speaks all languages. Those who are stuck in the past speak Latin.

 

[Peeps]

It is the same for those of us who like to hear the words of God spoken to us in our native tongue. God speaks all languages. Those who are stuck in the past speak Latin.

Forgive me if I’m misinterpreting you, but it sounds like you have some negative issues with the concept of “stuck in the past.”

I don’t think that people who enjoy history and antiquity, and who appreciate the old ways are “stuck in the past.”

They just enjoy it.

My husband and I have become interested in “vintage” stuff lately. We both have our particular “collections”–he’s into typewriters (currently owns around 80), and I’m into vaseline (uranium) glass.

I also love the older children’s/teens mystery books and I’m currently on a quest to acquire all of the Capwell Wyckoff “Mercer Boys” series and “Mystery Hunters” series. Also, I’m trying very hard to track down the rest of the Dana Girls mysteries (Carolyn Keene, the same one who wrote Nancy Drew mysteries, but I already own a complete collection of the Nancy Drew books!).

Tracking down these books is a mystery in itself! Like trying to find the Lost Colony!

My husband and I are not stuck in the past. We like bringing “the past” into our present. My husband TYPES on his typewriters and also loves tinkering with the repairs and corresponding with other collectors and those who have some kind of association with typewriters.

I USE my uranium glass at mealtimes–yes, they’re radioactive, but so far, I haven’t grown a third arm yet (wish I would–I could get more done!).

 

[zuiren]

Anecdotally, I would say that the attendees of the EF mass in my area belong to either one of two distinct clusters: (i) the more elderly (65+) and (ii) young adults (20s - early 30s). The young adults are of two sub-groups: (a) younger families, often with multiple young children and (b) single young men, although single young women are popping up more and more.