Dating a non-virgin: Yes or no.

[BlueEyedLady]

Men are the only ones that can doubt paternity, “Mama’s baby, daddy’s maybe.” It makes sense that men would value virginity more than women would and that a woman’s dating “value” would be more damaged by indiscretions than a man’s. It wouldn’t make sense for men and women to have the exact same priorities in finding a mate.

With your logic, that would be reversed. A man would care less about virginity because it’s obvious whether or not a woman has kids. But like HD pointed out, a woman can never really know if her husband has children from previous indiscretions.

Personally, my view is that jealousy is a very human emotion, male or female. In the past, to avoid these feelings, men pretty much insisted women didn’t have sex before marriage. Women were never really in a position to insist on much of anything, so the men got to play. I’ve met too many women torn up by their man’s past to think these feelings of jealousy, insecurity, or inferiority are gendered. We’re all people.

 

[Xantippe]

Hopefully part of the post-traumatic growth for a victim is not needing to be validated by how other people feel about you. I would hope that anyone who lost their virginity would be able to go through the same growth process.

1. That might take rather a while during which time (as other people have mentioned). It definitely wouldn’t happen instantly.
2. As DL mentioned, there’s the potential for purity talk to keep girls and women in sexually abusive relationships–if I am “ruined,” who else but my abuser will want me?
3. It might also be a challenge to one’s faith to deal with lack of compassion from people who are supposed to be co-religionists.

As a victim of rape, one might easily get more support in recovery from non-Christians.

1. For the average Christian trying to be chaste, marriage is often the light at the end of the tunnel that makes the struggle bearable. Virgin preference talk has the potential to destroy the victim’s ability to hope, to see light at the end of the tunnel, to continue to make an effort to be chaste.

 

[Xantippe]

With your logic, that would be reversed. A man would care less about virginity because it’s obvious whether or not a woman has kids. But like HD pointed out, a woman can never really know if her husband has children from previous indiscretions.

Personally, my view is that jealousy is a very human emotion, male or female. In the past, to avoid these feelings, men pretty much insisted women didn’t have sex before marriage. Women were never really in a position to insist on much of anything, so the men got to play. I’ve met too many women torn up by their man’s past to think these feelings of jealousy, insecurity, or inferiority are gendered. We’re all people.

Right.

Women can be insanely jealous, too–it’s just that we traditionally have just had to suck it up. (See, for example, the Tolstoy marriage–Sophia was ripped up by jealousy over Leo’s extensive premarital adventures–that was one of the factors that made their marriage less than ideal.)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Rape? Sexual assault? I go out for one night and this thread takes a dark turn.

Much like sexual history and finances, abuse something that the person will tell you when they feel comfortable and that you have no right to ask about. (Finances should definitely be covered extensively in marriage prep - past, present, and future). But, people don’t generally share their most intimate and private stuff in the absence of love and trust. That means that yes, you may have to decide between your “deal breaker” and the person you love. Not a terrible exercise for people considering marriage anyway.

What married person on this site can’t think of a few things about their spouse that they’re glad they didn’t know upfront? I can think of a few, and I know for a fact there are things about me that my husband is glad he didn’t know at first either. It’s really much better to approach people (dating or otherwise) with a desire to get to know them, not just who they are on paper. Get to know each other’s hearts and minds, then worry about the resumes.

 

[Sarcelle]

You must know some fringe Christians I’ve never heard of anyone who shuns widows for not being virgins.

But I will say I would have married a non virgin waaaay before a rape victim or an abuse victim. This is not a judgement upon them but rather the cold reality that many of those people have many many issues that can destroy a family and marriage. Not to mention the high rate of abuse victims becoming abusers. Any woman should be made aware WHILE DATING about a man who has been raped or abused. However some of these things are more aptly handled in the later stages of dating. But before a ring is produced.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the double standard is alive and well in this world. There are still vestiges of it in the Western world and is still going strong in the non Western world. As I said in my previous post, women are roughly divided into two groups, the ones you can use and then throw away and the ones you can marry. This type of thinking upholds the double standard.

However, I have also met a lot of men, mostly in the West, who would avoid dating virgins and say they would avoid marrying one.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the double standard is alive and well in this world. There are still vestiges of it in the Western world and is still going strong in the non Western world. As I said in my previous post, women are roughly divided into two groups, the ones you can use and then throw away and the ones you can marry. This type of thinking upholds the double standard.

However, I have also met a lot of men, mostly in the West, who would avoid dating virgins and say they would avoid marrying one.

thatothersmaybelovedmorethani.tumblr.com/post/14828558683/the-following-is-an-excerpt-from-the-midnight

In high school, a Catholic friend shared this excerpt with me and it profoundly affected my worldview. I still can’t read it without tearing up a little. I don’t know whose blog this is, so I can’t vouch for anything else on it, but this short piece from the book The Midnight Dancers is beautiful.

HD: I think you might be interested in it too, given your noted difference between the type of women you have fun with and the type you marry, and your belief that things like abuse render women too broken for you.

 

[Sarcelle]

thatothersmaybelovedmorethani.tumblr.com/post/14828558683/the-following-is-an-excerpt-from-the-midnight

In high school, a Catholic friend shared this excerpt with me and it profoundly affected my worldview. I still can’t read it without tearing up a little. I don’t know whose blog this is, so I can’t vouch for anything else on it, but this short piece from the book The Midnight Dancers is beautiful.

HD: I think you might be interested in it too, given your noted difference between the type of women you have fun with and the type you marry, and your belief that things like abuse render women too broken for you.

Thanks for the link.

 

[Xantippe]

Rape? Sexual assault? I go out for one night and this thread takes a dark turn.

Speaking of dark stuff, it is statistically pretty likely that anybody who has a large family is going to have at least one child become a victim of sexual assault or sexual abuse at some point.

Hence, it behooves parents to think seriously about how they would deal with that. It’s really important to be able to give hope and a sense of dignity and self-worth to people who feel like they have lost it.

 

[simpleas]

Speaking of dark stuff, it is statistically pretty likely that anybody who has a large family is going to have at least one child become a victim of sexual assault or sexual abuse at some point.

Hence, it behooves parents to think seriously about how they would deal with that. It’s really important to be able to give hope and a sense of dignity and self-worth to people who feel like they have lost it.

Very true, that is more helpful than believing a person is damaged goods and won’t be able to to marry and create a family, just because a person suffered abuse as a child doesn’t make it so. Many problems can come into the marriage after for any reasons, so does one turn their back on the other? Well they aren’t supposed to, but we can be weak…

 

[Sophie_Lawrence]

So is virginity not even something to look for or know about in a potential spouse?

I think chastity is more important. My husband had been with a number of ladies prior to me, but he’s very Catholic now. At a point I did want to marry a virgin, since I was waiting to get married. I think I gave that up that idea when I was in my early 20’s. It seemed that not many people were.

I kept the information to myself. My DH didn’t care either way. He assumed that I had experience, since we were in our mid to later 20’s. He was surprised.

 

[jmjZelie]

thatothersmaybelovedmorethani.tumblr.com/post/14828558683/the-following-is-an-excerpt-from-the-midnight

In high school, a Catholic friend shared this excerpt with me and it profoundly affected my worldview. I still can’t read it without tearing up a little. I don’t know whose blog this is, so I can’t vouch for anything else on it, but this short piece from the book The Midnight Dancers is beautiful.

HD: I think you might be interested in it too, given your noted difference between the type of women you have fun with and the type you marry, and your belief that things like abuse render women too broken for you.

Wow what a powerful story at that link!

I am all choked up. Thank you for sharing that.

 

[Sophie_Lawrence]

Rape? Sexual assault? I go out for one night and this thread takes a dark turn.

Much like sexual history and finances, abuse something that the person will tell you when they feel comfortable and that you have no right to ask about. (Finances should definitely be covered extensively in marriage prep - past, present, and future). But, people don’t generally share their most intimate and private stuff in the absence of love and trust. That means that yes, you may have to decide between your “deal breaker” and the person you love. Not a terrible exercise for people considering marriage anyway.

What married person on this site can’t think of a few things about their spouse that they’re glad they didn’t know upfront? I can think of a few, and I know for a fact there are things about me that my husband is glad he didn’t know at first either. It’s really much better to approach people (dating or otherwise) with a desire to get to know them, not just who they are on paper. Get to know each other’s hearts and minds, then worry about the resumes.

I have a background of some incidents of sexual abuse. I’ve only written about it here, and recently shared it with my therapist. I also shared it with my husband perhaps maybe within the last 10 years. We’ve been together for longer than 20.

Someone said past abuse victims are more likely to abuse? I can’t relate to that at all. In fact my past has made me hypersensitive to child abuse and to abuse victims. It’s made me perhaps slightly over protective.

 

[Xantippe]

thatothersmaybelovedmorethani.tumblr.com/post/14828558683/the-following-is-an-excerpt-from-the-midnight

In high school, a Catholic friend shared this excerpt with me and it profoundly affected my worldview. I still can’t read it without tearing up a little. I don’t know whose blog this is, so I can’t vouch for anything else on it, but this short piece from the book The Midnight Dancers is beautiful.

HD: I think you might be interested in it too, given your noted difference between the type of women you have fun with and the type you marry, and your belief that things like abuse render women too broken for you.

That is a very fine piece.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Hoosier Daddy, all I can say about your take on survivors or rape and sexual abuse, then I hope to God sexual abuse never happens to your own children, because it seems you’d be telling them they should never marry, and I guess, considering your past posts, you’d expect them to stay at home and be dependent on you forever – oops, you’re not immortal, are you? So I guess you’d expect them to rely on the mercies of their undamaged siblings, as long as they stay away from their nieces and nephews to avoid the risk of the abuser becoming an abuser too.

Unless, of course, you’re such a perfect parent that you can guarantee that would never happen to your children, or that you can fix them even if it did.

I’d also like to point out that since sexual abuse, and abuse is general, is unfortunately quite common, ruling out “anyone who has a history of rape or abuse” actually would narrow the dating pool almost as much as ruling out anyone with a history of consensual “sexual sin”.

This doesn’t mean prudence isn’t a virtue here, or that such a history is irrelevant and doesn’t have to be disclosed. Just that I don’t think that history by itself should be an automatic disqualification.

On the other hand – while I do acknowledge that many men who prefer virgins would see rape victims as “non-virgins”, especially in some conservative Christian circles, I really don’t think that most CAF posters who express a preference, are actually counting rape victims as non-virgins, though I can see why such victims would fear this.

Indeed, I suspect the number of women who’d rule out a man who has a past history of being abused by a man, is higher than the number of men who’d rule out a woman with a past history of abuse by a man.

And certainly, men who have a past themselves but still insist on marrying a virgin are just beyond the pale, and do seem to see a “virgin bride” as a prize, not an equal partner to love.

 

[AdamP88]

At this point in the conversation. I just want to throw this idea out there.

Is it not the case that marital love and intimacy is healing?

I remember a having a conversation with a married couple who were both Catholic now but one of them had lapsed for a few years before they were married. They are now involved in giving talks on marriage.

One of the things they said was that marital love is healing in itself.

They suggested that sex in marriage is a communication between husband and wife. More than a communication, an intimate conversation that is unique to that husband and wife. That nothing can prepare for it and nothing compares to it. Not only that but the marital love and communication can be healing of wounds of sexual sin because it is open to the grace of the sacrament of matrimony.

Surely if we are willing to be open to grace and to the healing of Christ, it is possible that wounds of sexual sin, rape, and sexual abuse are all capable of being healed?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Hoosier Daddy, all I can say about your take on survivors or rape and sexual abuse, then I hope to God sexual abuse never happens to your own children, because it seems you’d be telling them they should never marry, and I guess, considering your past posts, you’d expect them to stay at home and be dependent on you forever – oops, you’re not immortal, are you? So I guess you’d expect them to rely on the mercies of their undamaged siblings, as long as they stay away from their nieces and nephews to avoid the risk of the abuser becoming an abuser too.

Unless, of course, you’re such a perfect parent that you can guarantee that would never happen to your children, or that you can fix them even if it did.

I’d also like to point out that since sexual abuse, and abuse is general, is unfortunately quite common, ruling out “anyone who has a history of rape or abuse” actually would narrow the dating pool almost as much as ruling out anyone with a history of consensual “sexual sin”.

This doesn’t mean prudence isn’t a virtue here, or that such a history is irrelevant and doesn’t have to be disclosed. Just that I don’t think that history by itself should be an automatic disqualification.

On the other hand – while I do acknowledge that many men who prefer virgins would see rape victims as “non-virgins”, especially in some conservative Christian circles, I really don’t think that most CAF posters who express a preference, are actually counting rape victims as non-virgins, though I can see why such victims would fear this.

Indeed, I suspect the number of women who’d rule out a man who has a past history of being abused by a man, is higher than the number of men who’d rule out a woman with a past history of abuse by a man.

And certainly, men who have a past themselves but still insist on marrying a virgin are just beyond the pale, and do seem to see a “virgin bride” as a prize, not an equal partner to love.

I can see it’s time to bow out of this thread.

 

[GF_Girl]

I would consider marrying my future husband if he was not a virgin, if he was Catholic, and respected and loved me enough for us to maintain a chaste relationship until we are married. What if my future husband is a Catholic convert and before his conversion he was intimate with a previous girlfriend? What happened in the past is just that, as long as he is a devout Catholic who wants a chaste relationship (and doesn’t smoke, I get asthma attacks when exposed to cigarette smoke) who am I to judge his previous actions? But that is just my opinion, and I maybe wrong (like I often am but am willing to learn and expand my mind) and if so please let me know!

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I would consider marrying my future husband if he was not a virgin, if he was Catholic, and respected and loved me enough for us to maintain a chaste relationship until we are married. What if my future husband is a Catholic convert and before his conversion he was intimate with a previous girlfriend? What happened in the past is just that, as long as he is a devout Catholic who wants a chaste relationship (and doesn’t smoke, I get asthma attacks when exposed to cigarette smoke) who am I to judge his previous actions? But that is just my opinion, and I maybe wrong (like I often am but am willing to learn and expand my mind) and if so please let me know!

Except for the Catholic part, (as I am not myself Catholic), I totally agree. I would point out, though, that I’d want a man who wishes to be chaste not just out of respect and love for me, but respect and love for himself.

Unfortunately, some men see their sexual morality as completely relative to that of the woman involved. If a woman wants to be chaste, they will respect that. But they might be having some fun on the side with not-so-chaste women, and see this as totally normal and expected, that “why should I respect a woman if she doesn’t respect herself”, etc.

As Sarcelle mentioned, I think this is based on a view of women as objects, not equals, and also reveals the man doesn’t really find chastity to be important as a virtue.

 

[LightBound]

I can see it’s time to bow out of this thread.

A few posts too late. Your comments about those that had been molested was disgusting

 

[LightBound]

I can see it’s time to bow out of this thread.

A few posts too late Your comments about abuse victims are reprehensible!!!