Dating a non-virgin: Yes or no.

[Xantippe]

I’d also like to point out that since sexual abuse, and abuse is general, is unfortunately quite common, ruling out “anyone who has a history of rape or abuse” actually would narrow the dating pool almost as much as ruling out anyone with a history of consensual “sexual sin”.

I suspect any woman who dates long enough is eventually going to have an abusive significant other.

I had a relatively brief dating career, only dated four guys (including my future husband) and I still managed to have what I now realize was an abusive relationship along the way. I’ve come to believe that that’s almost more the rule than the exception.

I suspect, for instance, that some of HD’s locker room colleagues did not always play according to Marquess of Queensbury rules. One can’t really expect teenage boys who haven’t been taught it to have a well-articulated view of consent, the importance of not taking advantage of those physically weaker than ourselves, the human dignity of girls and women, etc, etc.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I suspect any woman who dates long enough is eventually going to have an abusive significant other.

I had a relatively brief dating career, only dated four guys (including my future husband) and I still managed to have what I now realize was an abusive relationship along the way. I’ve come to believe that that’s almost more the rule than the exception.

I suspect, for instance, that some of HD’s locker room colleagues did not always play according to Marquess of Queensbury rules. One can’t really expect teenage boys who haven’t been taught it to have a well-articulated view of consent, the importance of not taking advantage of those physically weaker than ourselves, the human dignity of girls and women, etc, etc.

Well, I’m lucky enough not to have been in any frankly abusive relationships. However, really emotionally unhealthy relationships, compounded by mutual immaturity – been there, done that.

Of course, there are different degrees of abuse, both in terms of family of origin and within dating. But the idea that “we should avoid people damaged by abuse” does seem to arise from a really naïve idea that abuse is extremely rare, so limiting one’s dating pool to people who haven’t been abused is no big deal.

 

[Xantippe]

At this point in the conversation. I just want to throw this idea out there.

Is it not the case that marital love and intimacy is healing?

I remember a having a conversation with a married couple who were both Catholic now but one of them had lapsed for a few years before they were married. They are now involved in giving talks on marriage.

One of the things they said was that marital love is healing in itself.

I think that’s right. Maybe not for everybody (there would be some especially difficult cases), but for a lot of women. Over time, one can develop a sense of security and trust that is healing. And a lot of that can actually start happening during courtship.

On the other hand, from recent discussions on CAF, I’ve been realizing that there is potentially a conflict between the emotional and psychological needs of a spouse that has experienced abuse and the ever popular “lie back and think of England” view.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13786270&postcount=44

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13786331&postcount=45

What I’ve been realizing through these discussions, is that just as there may be a need for marital relations by one spouse, it may also be true that the other spouse needs to NOT have marital relations, or at least needs to feel like they have the ability to say no (even if, as a matter of fact, they almost always say yes).

I’m realizing that the spouse with a history of abuse may need to feel safe and to feel like she can trust her husband and that she can occasionally turn down marital relations without having to face arm-twisting, guilt trips, or some sort of punitive payback.

But yes, where there is love, rather than entitlement and selfishness, there can be healing.

 

[UbiCaritas]

It’s the bookseller in me–I can’t help it!–but I did want to mention that for those of us who so enjoyed the passage in BEL’s link, the author, Regina Doman, has written a number of set-in-modern-day fairy tales geared towards teens. While it has been a very long time since I read any of them, I seem to recall that they managed to avoid both the dreadful prose and preachy overtones by which most teens’ (and otherwise) “Christian Fiction” is plagued. Now I’m thinking I may need to pick one or two up and confirm…

Back to your regularly-scheduled topic at hand.

 

[Xantippe]

Well, I’m lucky enough not to have been in any frankly abusive relationships. However, really emotionally unhealthy relationships, compounded by mutual immaturity – been there, done that.

Of course, there are different degrees of abuse, both in terms of family of origin and within dating. But the idea that “we should avoid people damaged by abuse” does seem to arise from a really naïve idea that abuse is extremely rare, so limiting one’s dating pool to people who haven’t been abused is no big deal.

Yeah. And it also may take more life experience to realize that something was abusive.

I’ve told stories on CAF about stuff my mom used to do that I think some people found pretty shocking (she’d literally break spatulas and wooden spoons on my sister and me). CAFers used the term “abusive” to describe that and seemed pretty shocked, but I never had thought about it that way, because that was my normal.

 

[jmjZelie]

At this point in the conversation. I just want to throw this idea out there.

Is it not the case that marital love and intimacy is healing?

I remember a having a conversation with a married couple who were both Catholic now but one of them had lapsed for a few years before they were married. They are now involved in giving talks on marriage.

One of the things they said was that marital love is healing in itself.

They suggested that sex in marriage is a communication between husband and wife. More than a communication, an intimate conversation that is unique to that husband and wife. That nothing can prepare for it and nothing compares to it. Not only that but the marital love and communication can be healing of wounds of sexual sin because it is open to the grace of the sacrament of matrimony.

Surely if we are willing to be open to grace and to the healing of Christ, it is possible that wounds of sexual sin, rape, and sexual abuse are all capable of being healed?

Yes to everything here.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It’s the bookseller in me–I can’t help it!–but I did want to mention that for those of us who so enjoyed the passage in BEL’s link, the author, Regina Doman, has written a number of set-in-modern-day fairy tales geared towards teens. While it has been a very long time since I read any of them, I seem to recall that they managed to avoid both the dreadful prose and preachy overtones by which most teens’ (and otherwise) “Christian Fiction” is plagued. Now I’m thinking I may need to pick one or two up and confirm…

Back to your regularly-scheduled topic at hand.

Thanks for the background! I always kind of wondered what kind of author wrote this. I had a very devout, very close Catholic friend in high school. We talked and challenged each other in a lot of ways. She sent the excerpt to me in a MySpace message (that’s how long ago!) and told me she came across it in a book she was reading. Clearly the religious part didn’t resonate, but I thought the underlying message was beautiful and it’s something I’ve pulled up to read several times since then.

You can strip away the religious part and take out the gender dynamic and the point is the same. It’s another one of those things that doesn’t just apply to sex and romance - it’s about how you fundamentally view others.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

I think one of the issues regarding “deal-breakers”, is that some people seem to see dating and marriage discernment, as essentially the same as an employer evaluating job applicants to see who is most qualified and would be an asset to the company. Criminal history? Bad credit? Nope, we’re NOT going to give you a second interview.

The issue here, is that marriage is not a job. I really get the feeling some of the men who seem to overly value virginity, or lack of “baggage” in general, see themselves as the employer dispassionately evaluating prospective applicants for the job of “wife” and picking the best candidate. (Indeed, some even have mentioned the “mail-order bride” route as a way to get a wife who meets their standards.) The whole perspective on what marriage actually is, seems really skewed.

Now, of course, in a job search process, the employee is evaluating the employer, too, but obviously the employer has more power in the relationship. Hmm, I suppose it makes sense that many men who see virginity as a pre-condition, also see the whole marriage relationship as more an employer-employee one, or at least a supervisor-subordinate one, than an equal one.

 

[AdamP88]

I think that’s right. Maybe not for everybody (there would be some especially difficult cases), but for a lot of women. Over time, one can develop a sense of security and trust that is healing. And a lot of that can actually start happening during courtship.

On the other hand, from recent discussions on CAF, I’ve been realizing that there is potentially a conflict between the emotional and psychological needs of a spouse that has experienced abuse and the ever popular “lie back and think of England” view.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13786270&postcount=44

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13786331&postcount=45

What I’ve been realizing through these discussions, is that just as there may be a need for marital relations by one spouse, it may also be true that the other spouse needs to NOT have marital relations, or at least needs to feel like they have the ability to say no (even if, as a matter of fact, they almost always say yes).

I agree. Thanks for the links.
I’m realizing that the spouse with a history of abuse may need to feel safe and to feel like she can trust her husband and that she can occasionally turn down marital relations without having to face arm-twisting, guilt trips, or some sort of punitive payback.

But yes, where there is love, rather than entitlement and selfishness, there can be healing.

I agree.

 

[Xantippe]

Here’s a little practical note.

A lot of times, in the name of chastity or purity, there is some over-selling of how amazing a “first time” is between two virgins on their wedding night.



That’s really not very realistic, especially not for the woman. In fact, there may sometimes be what I euphemistically refer to as “mechanical issues.” It’s unfair, but mechanical issues are probably rather more likely to afflict a couple that has been “good.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/vaginismus-what-i-wish-i-had-known/

 

[AdamP88]

Here’s a little practical note.

A lot of times, in the name of chastity or purity, there is some over-selling of how amazing a “first time” is between two virgins on their wedding night.



That’s really not very realistic, especially not for the woman. In fact, there may sometimes be what I euphemistically refer to as “mechanical issues.” It’s unfair, but mechanical issues are probably rather more likely to afflict a couple that has been “good.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/vaginismus-what-i-wish-i-had-known/

Perhaps. But I’d still trade any “experience” for my first time to be with the woman I’m marrying.

 

[Sarcelle]

Thanks for the background! I always kind of wondered what kind of author wrote this. I had a very devout, very close Catholic friend in high school. We talked and challenged each other in a lot of ways. She sent the excerpt to me in a MySpace message (that’s how long ago!) and told me she came across it in a book she was reading. Clearly the religious part didn’t resonate, but I thought the underlying message was beautiful and it’s something I’ve pulled up to read several times since then.

You can strip away the religious part and take out the gender dynamic and the point is the same. It’s another one of those things that doesn’t just apply to sex and romance - it’s about how you fundamentally view others.

My wise mother told my brothers and I that when dating someone, observe how they treat service people, like waiters or sales clerks. How they treat people who are there to wait on them is how they will treat you. Again how one fundamentally views others is what sets the tone for the relationship.

 

[Xantippe]

Perhaps. But I’d still trade any “experience” for my first time to be with the woman I’m marrying.

Weeell, here’s the thing. The “first” time may not happen exactly on schedule, if you know what I mean. It may take a lot longer than that.

 

[Sarcelle]

Here’s a little practical note.

A lot of times, in the name of chastity or purity, there is some over-selling of how amazing a “first time” is between two virgins on their wedding night.



That’s really not very realistic, especially not for the woman. In fact, there may sometimes be what I euphemistically refer to as “mechanical issues.” It’s unfair, but mechanical issues are probably rather more likely to afflict a couple that has been “good.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/vaginismus-what-i-wish-i-had-known/

Besides does it take time and a lot of learning about each other when it comes to building a good sexual relationship? This is why “test driving” one another which is the usual reason given for premarital sex does not hold water for me.

 

[pensmama87]

Besides does it take time and a lot of learning about each other when it comes to building a good sexual relationship? This is why “test driving” one another which is the usual reason given for premarital sex does not hold water for me.

Yes. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be good and fun at first, but IMO it gets better as you go, even after the “novelty” wears off. You know each other better and you trust each other more.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

Here’s a little practical note.

A lot of times, in the name of chastity or purity, there is some over-selling of how amazing a “first time” is between two virgins on their wedding night.



That’s really not very realistic, especially not for the woman. In fact, there may sometimes be what I euphemistically refer to as “mechanical issues.” It’s unfair, but mechanical issues are probably rather more likely to afflict a couple that has been “good.”

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2016/01/vaginismus-what-i-wish-i-had-known/

I’m pretty sure that men know they aren’t going to knock it out of the park their first at bat. I’m sure that it’s a big reason for insecurity and preference for another virgin. It definitely seems better to be with someone inexperienced and go through problems together rather than just being the source of the problem with a frustrated partner.

 

[Xantippe]

I’m pretty sure that men know they aren’t going to knock it out of the park their first at bat. I’m sure that it’s a big reason for insecurity and preference for another virgin. It definitely seems better to be with someone inexperienced and go through problems together rather than just being the source of the problem with a frustrated partner.

There is that.

If you read the To Love Honor and Vacuum thread (which is necessarily graphic being devoted to vaginismus–so I understand if you don’t), there are apparently a lot of women who are pretty much crushed by the disappointment of how hard it turned out to be to consummate their marriage, compared to what they expected. So it’s not just knocking it out of the park that’s a problem, but even just making contact with the ball.

 

[jmjZelie]

Perhaps. But I’d still trade any “experience” for my first time to be with the woman I’m marrying.

Of course. But a marital physical relationship is like a fine wine. It gets much better over time. The first days are exciting and new but often clumsy. it is good to be patient and have reasonable expectations.

 

[jmjZelie]

Yes. It doesn’t mean that it can’t be good and fun at first, but IMO it gets better as you go, even after the “novelty” wears off. You know each other better and you trust each other more.

 

[Xantippe]

Of course. But a marital physical relationship is like a fine wine. It gets much better over time. The first days are exciting and new but often clumsy. it is good to be patient and have reasonable expectations.

Yes.