Dating a potential non-virgin

[Anicette]

My husband and I were neither Catholic nor virgins when we married. It didn’t destroy our marriage. I promise. I’m all for waiting for marriage as the Church teaches, but it’s senseless to bemoan couples who didn’t.

It seems that it may easier that you both start at the same level. non virgins and non catholics. And that you evolved together, not one leaving the other behind.

 

[rosejmj]

Still on the topic of this thread, here’s another hint: People who disagree about abstinence before marriage are going to want sex from their date. Early on.

Not necessarily. I know several people who didn’t see the point in waiting for marriage, but did want to wait until the relationship became more serious because of what sex meant to them as an expression of love. However, I also have found that it’s not hard to talk about sex on dates and to talk about those type of expectations early on. Maybe religious people are more private about broaching those matters. Idk

 

[T432]

@rosejmj good points. I agree with everything you have said. That has been my experience too.

 

[Lea101]

don’t justify porn and consider it as destructive.

Just said it is too much to compare masturbation, when many men had engaged at a point of their life

I will argue porn usage is more destructive than pre marital sex, although I’m sure we as a society are too scared to discuss this, lol. Porn usage can have an adverse impact on the brain and it does affect one’s view towards sex even more so than a past sexual experience. So much so that even secular men are starting to get rid of porn and masturbate to their own imagination/pictures of their partner.

This isn’t to say that past sexual experience has no effect on a marriage or it’s a minor sin or whatever. It can be a problem in a marriage, but if we’re talking about a person who had sex with one or two guys, who is currently a practicing Catholic who regularly attends confession…chances are, it won’t be that much of an issue.

In fact, if a person is more caught up with virginity then say, porn use…my assumption is that he probably feels icky (childish), or that he doesn’t want his inexperience to be disappointing or to be compared with a former partner that performed better (valid worry, but something that can be talked about and practised).

Of course OP was talking about concerns over a sacramental marriage so it seems like his worry has more to do with being misinformed over that.

 

[Usige]

Many people who only accept virgins are generally guilty of sexual sin themselves, be it excessive porn usage or lust, that can be more harmful than someone who has had sex with a partner and has reformed. One may be turned off by a non virgin, and that can be silly and worth reflecting if he currently can’t make it a month without masturbating.

I can only speak to my own pastoral experience in preparing couples.

The overwhelming majority where one or both of the couple prefer to marry a virgin tend to be younger (late teens to mid 20s), are from very devout Catholic families (e.g. frequent confession and daily mass, family rosary et cetera), would be considered to have a “sheltered” upbringing by many, and tend to follow a very traditionalist moral viewpoint. I’d estimate that 70%+ of those couples involve someone that came from a large home schooled family where there was a strong bias against the secularization of society and moral norms. Few, if any, of those couples exhibit the behaviors you mention. I can only think of 1 couple that would have been a mixed marriage, where the bride was a young virgin and the groom was a sexual libertine; he convinced her to have sex during their engagement and then walked away from the relationship before they married.

So in my personal experience, those that have a strong preference for marrying virgins are generally from families that have not been secularized to see sin as just something that happens rather than something that should be avoided at all cost. It has been a rarity when I’ve encountered the hypocrisy you mention.

Given that I associate with a large number of families that are raising their children to value chastity I see it as unjust for so many to dump on the OP as a hypocrite or sexual deviant for wanting to hold virginity as an ideal the same what they Church herself does. It is very difficult when I see many Catholics on this board, whom I consider to be fairly orthodox in every other aspect of the faith, to pile on the OP simply because he has not been secularized to see premarital sex as something noone should even even consider in a partner.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I guess I too need counseling since I find it disturbing that so many people have no problem with how many people their partner has ever slept with.

Why would you find other people’s decisions in this regard “disturbing”? Jesus wasn’t disturbed by the pasts of the people who sought him out; he was only concerned with their repenting and their behavior going forward. Likewise, if someone chooses a partner based on their current attitude and their behavior going forward, and doesn’t get all hung up on what they might have done 2, 5, or 10 years ago, why would that bother you? You’re not the one picking the partner. You’re not the one who’s going to be living with the partner.

And as dozens of people, including a number on this forum, can testify, it’s quite possible to have a long happy marriage even though one or both people in the marriage made some premarital errors in judgment or didn’t live a totally moral life before marriage. Often, the spouse is what brings out the best in you - I know that’s what happened for me.

You mentioned a girl you counseled who was a virgin and was persuaded by a “bad fiance” to have sex with him and then he dumped her. Don’t you think that girl, who is now not a virgin, but is presumably repentant and likely only did what she did because she was pushed into it by the man she thought at the time would soon be her husband, deserves a second chance at happiness with a man who will actually love and respect her?

We all have our deal breakers. It’s fine to have them, as long as you accept you might be potentially missing out on some great partner because of your dealbreaker. But to get disturbed because it’s not also a dealbreaker for someone else is a bit odd. It especially bothers me because you said you do premarital preparation. I hope you’re not imparting your attitude to them if one or both aren’t virgins.

I’d estimate that 70%+ of those couples involve someone that came from a large home schooled family where there was a strong bias against the secularization of society and moral norms.

Please understand that many of us never encounter this type of person. Other than occasionally seeing families who look like they might be this way at a TLM from time to time, I never met one. When I was young and single, the guys I met who were into their girlfriends being “virgins” were often not good people to be around. One of them tried to get me to “make love but stay virgin”. Another one already had a 13-year-old daughter out of wedlock with his high school girlfriend, and was simultaneously dating some other lady his age while he was seeing me (I was about 10 years younger) and making remarks about my virginity.

I also read through this whole thread and I only saw a couple of people criticizing the OP for his dealbreaker. A couple of people also criticized him for being concerned about this very early in the dating of a new person and/or for discussing it here instead of discussing it with her. Most of the posters pretty much told him his dealbreaker was his dealbreaker.

 

[Billy76]

@Tis_Bearself While we probably disagree mostly on this matter. I agree with almost entirely with this reply. Well said!

 

[Lea101]

see it as unjust for so many to dump on the OP as a hypocrite or sexual deviant for wanting to hold virginity as an ideal the same what they Church herself does

This was what he said

This would be a major issue for me, not out of a superiority complex, but simply concerns over the sacramental nature of a potential marriage, and the fact that I would not see myself shaking this concern easily.

As you can see, at least part of his hesitation as something to do with misinformation here. So it’s only natural that posters here will come on and correct it.

Additionally, virginity is more or less valued by the Church because of the woman’s relationship with God through her chastity. I’m pro chastity culture, not pro purity culture.

The overwhelming majority where one or both of the couple prefer to marry a virgin tend to be younger (late teens to mid 20s), are from very devout Catholic families (e.g. frequent confession and daily mass, family rosary et cetera), would be considered to have a “sheltered” upbringing by many, and tend to follow a very traditionalist moral viewpoint. I’d estimate that 70%+ of those couples involve someone that came from a large home schooled family where there was a strong bias agains

I believe this. But I also don’t think this contradicts anything I’m saying. These men are also the ones opening up threads here or elsewhere about having difficulties with masturbation etc. It’s possible to be a practicing Catholic, and still be a hypocrite over this sort of thing. To value virginity mostly because of worldly concerns rather than the state of her soul or tendency to cheat or whatever (remember, we’re talking about people who can’t tolerate someone having sex once).

I actually don’t see posters telling him that he has to date her or anything like that. It’s more about telling him virginity is not a reliable indicator about a quality of a spouse. Which you haven’t seemed to refute yet, so I don’t see why that’s a problem.

Also regarding this…

have not been secularized to see sin as just something that happens rather than something that should be avoided at all cost.

So they’ve never watched porn or fall into other sexual sin before? Forgive me if this sounds snarky, I don’t get what you’re trying to say. It’s highly unlikely that these young men have successfully managed to avoid sexual sin and are now looking for an equally yoked partner. What’s more likely, however, is that people slip and fall, and got their butts to confession and are trying to live a better life. Both men and women.

Sometimes a past, despite forgiven, may be relevant as dealbreakers. For example, history of abuse or excessive sex/promiscuity because of personal hangups (e.g. One is worried about a repeat of such behaviours, since it’s a pattern). Heck, everyone is entitled to dumb deal breakers, but it doesn’t mean others can’t pop in and share that such deal breakers are not logical.

 

[Lea101]

There’s also another danger with minimizing porn as compared to premarital sex. It’s very common for guys to keep using porn while dating, or even worse, after getting married. This has an absolutely horrible effect on the relationship, far worse than if either person had previously lost virginity

Yup. Same goes for women and porn, of course.

It’s easier to pretend porn use isn’t ‘worse’ for a marriage or a relationship, since it’s a private sin and we don’t have terminology like ‘body count’ or ‘virginity’ regarding it. One can watch porn and confess every week, and it’s like it never happened…while someone who has slept with one or two people before they wise up/converted can be seen as damaged goods…forever changed…etc.

 

[Norseman82]

So in my personal experience, those that have a strong preference for marrying virgins are generally from families that have not been secularized to see sin as just something that happens rather than something that should be avoided at all cost. It has been a rarity when I’ve encountered the hypocrisy you mention.

Given that I associate with a large number of families that are raising their children to value chastity I see it as unjust for so many to dump on the OP as a hypocrite or sexual deviant for wanting to hold virginity as an ideal the same what they Church herself does. It is very difficult when I see many Catholics on this board, whom I consider to be fairly orthodox in every other aspect of the faith, to pile on the OP simply because he has not been secularized to see premarital sex as something noone should even even consider in a partner.

I think the above is important. A good number of Catholics have been co-opted by the secular culture - letting it convert them instead of converting it. You can see it in many of the posts right here on CAF that advocate attending same-sex “weddings” for the sake of “keeping the peace”, sometimes under the pretense “being the only chance to be a Catholic influence”.

The only time I have heard that not being a virgin might theioretically affect the validity of the sacrament of matrimony was in cases where the non-virgin partner lied about it, making a possible case for annulment due to marrying under false pretenses. However, I do not know of any cases in real life or of the statistics for this.

It is also important to note that St. Paul in 1 Corinthians singles out fornication as a sin in a class by itself, probably because it involves uniting oneself physically with someone else - in fact, he uses the image of uniting with a prostitute.

I also wonder if the hostility toward male virgins on this forum is due to the fact that many of those who are hostile have guilty consciences due to their own pasts, or due to the fact they may have mistreated or “let down” or otherwise acted unjustly toward virgins - for example, someone who was not a virgin who not only married a virgin (thus making it more difficult for virgins to find other virgins to marry), but then add insult to injury to those who are having a difficult time as a result by calling them “stupid” and “idiots”.